2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

[DutchManDanFan]

Now you write: "it's an easy choise for me." In the alinea I quoted above this was not the case.
If it's meant respectfull or not doesn't matter. It's ignorant because you don't give any analysis about the value Giannis has (you obviously don't know very well), but claim the difference between Steph and Giannis in valuability is significant.

The players are too different to make a good comparison. It's very valuable vs. very valuable. Any analysis that has one easy above the other (one way or another) has no credibility to me.

What seperates them is team record and supporting casts. You can argue both favors Steph. Team record is obvious. But a lot of ingenious stats are influanced by how good or bad certain team mates are. I don't think they have much value to make a clear distinction between the most valuable players. The amount of wins and the impact the best players have to get the wins is much more important (for me).

[MrSparkle]

1. Curry
2. Giannis
3. Jokic or Embiid (depending on whose team finishes better)

These 4 have been solo stars carrying squads with a lot of injuries or no star #2. Warriors have strong depth but they’re a paper tower without Curry.

I’m a Bulls fan but not really gonna hype Demar or Zach. Both should make either All-NBA 2nd or 3rd team, but not in the MVP convo, IMO.

[Bluewaterheaven]

So, when talking about MVP, do you take contract into account? The Bulls got Demar for cheap, especially considering his output. It allowed the Bulls to get Ball and Caruso as well, and keep Vuc.

Does his performance at his contract price boost him up in anyones eyes?

[eyeatoma]

Don't look now but Joel Embiid is coming for that MVP!

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No other big man in the league can do this stuff.

Lol, yeah yeah Joker is still the better passer, don't worry Jokic stans I kid.

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Dude had

31/15/10 1 steal, 1 3 pointer, 2 blocks. 60%fg 85.7% FT

In the last 2 months (17 games)

He's averaged 29.4/11.9/4.3 assists 1.5 3pg 1.5 blocks 1.2 steals .497 fg, .819 FT and 2.7 t/o.

MVP!!! No one has played better than him in the last 2 months.

[eyeatoma]

1. Curry
2. Giannis
3. Jokic or Embiid (depending on whose team finishes better)

These 4 have been solo stars carrying squads with a lot of injuries or no star #2. Warriors have strong depth but they’re a paper tower without Curry.

I’m a Bulls fan but not really gonna hype Demar or Zach. Both should make either All-NBA 2nd or 3rd team, but not in the MVP convo, IMO.

I agree with this. Although I feel Curry has faded since his hot first month and half. Giannis might be in the drivers seat, DeRozan makes a case, and ofcourse Joker too. I feel like Joker has also dropped off, and Embiid is outperforming him at this point. Jokic has been a madman on the glass though.

[WarriorGM]

Winning multiple MVPs just means that a player had multiple phenomenal regular seasons. MVPs are not validated or negated by after the fact playoff success or lack there of. Antetokounmpo's MVPs were not illegitimate because his teams were better in those regular seasons than they were in the playoffs. Nor should they be delegitimized if his injury had kept him out of last year's Finals. There is no Go Back In Time Machine.

The "beauty" of MVP discussions is that without a definitive criteria for what constitutes MVP, people can quickly shift the focus of the discussion from counting points, to team success, to strength of schedule, to defensive rating, to games missed, to advanced stats on and on.

There is a reason leading a team to the best record in the regular season is so closely tied with the MVP: It is an objective tangible accomplishment that is above arbitrary made up indicators like triple doubles.

I disagree when you say MVPs are not validated or negated after-the-fact. They are because the credibility of the award itself is either enhanced or undermined by the choices made.

The "beauty" you refer to is there for the ones giving it to shift the narrative as they please but once it becomes obvious they are putting out nothing but bull the award's value likewise goes to the gutter.

So does leading your team to the best record in the NBA validate the MVP or does winning the title?

The Bucks had the best record for the 2 years that Giannis won the award, but it only became justified when the Bucks were able to win the chip last year? I'm confused, should the MVP have to do both to be valid?

Also what has Paul and Harden done that makes them more significant in a historical context?Neither one of them has rings so what's their "best in the world lineage"? And why should Giannis take a back seat to either of them? Seems like your goalposts are all over the place.

Leading a team to the best record in the league is an accomplishment. So is winning a championship. One is a regular season accomplishment the other a playoffs accomplishment. The latter fulfills the promise of the former.

While the idea of awards in the view of those who create them is to validate accomplishments, as far as I'm concerned what a player does exists independently of the award. What an award is really doing is hopping on the halo created by someone else and validating itself. That's why you can have an eleven time champion who never received a particular award and the ones who were embarrassed when he didn't receive it when he was eligible was the award so much so they named it after him.

There are four players who for the most part contested most of the championships of this recent era: LeBron, Curry, Durant, and Kawhi. Beating them in the playoffs would more easily carry on the reputation their contests against each other established. I consider Harden and Paul as arguably still more historically significant so far than Giannis because they've had more battles against these four and it is around those battles that one tends to go to adequately explain the recent era.

[bstein14]

DeMar DeRozan should be entering the top 5 of MVP discussion. The field is actually pretty open this year IMO Curry has been great, BUT he was actually much better shooting last season. The improvement of the Warriors this year has largely been Draymond coming back to being force as well as other guys stepping up like Wiggins, Poole, and Payton Jr.... Plus with Klay coming back you know at least a few of Curry's nightly FGAs will be moved over for Klay. I think Curry will for sure be a top 3 candidate but he just doesn't feel like a guy who is the frontrunner to me he's in the mix with several other players.

[michaelm]

I am as keen a Curry fan as there is, with the exception of WarriorGM of course, but he won’t get MVP if he keeps shooting this inefficiently.

[MindState]

I am as keen a Curry fan as there is, with the exception of WarriorGM of course, but he won’t get MVP if he keeps shooting this inefficiently.

Hes been terrible for over a month. Heading into week 5 of awful basketball. Im honestly concerned that this is just who he is now.

[Ballerhogger]

DeMar closing on the mvp race he has to be in top 2 mvp voting if the bulls finish first at level hes playing at

[moderndarwin]

Current Rankings (imo)

1. Steph
2. KD
3. Giannis
4. Joker
5. Demarr
6. Cp3
7. Embiid
8. Morant
9. Lebron
10. Gobert

[eyeatoma]

Current Rankings (imo)

1. Steph
2. KD
3. Giannis
4. Joker
5. Demarr
6. Cp3
7. Embiid
8. Morant
9. Lebron
10. Gobert

Steph is most definitely not #1 anymore. He's at #5 at this point.

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[nitric0]

Demar
Giannis
Durant
Curry
Jokic

[eyeatoma]

Demar
Giannis
Durant
Curry
Jokic

Embiid is top 5, I'd take Curry or Joker (they lost again) out.

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[WhatTheBuck]

Another game where Curry through his supernatural gravitational force wills a team of cast-offs and G-leaguers to a win.

[moderndarwin]

Current Rankings (imo)

1. Steph
2. KD
3. Giannis
4. Joker
5. Demarr
6. Cp3
7. Embiid
8. Morant
9. Lebron
10. Gobert

Steph is most definitely not #1 anymore. He's at #5 at this point.

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Not how it works. Clear cut best player on the best team. And he’s winning with any assortment of lineups out there with a next man up mentality. There’s no reason that he’s not top 2-3 at worse. He’s missing shots but let’s keep repeating this - his gravity is something that simply cannot be explained by basic stats. There’s a reason that this team is so good and it starts and ends with Steph.

If Steph goes down for 20 games this team is at best would finish 10-10. And that’s no knock on the team or the players. He’s the adamantium / vibranium car frame. Drays the engine.

[Ritzo]

People need to recast their votes because Curry ain't it.

[WarriorGM]

Another game where Curry through his supernatural gravitational force wills a team of cast-offs and G-leaguers to a win.

I know you intend it as sarcasm but it's closer to the truth than a lot of other takes out there. Hard to make the point more emphatically given the other leading contenders all scored 25+ —on their way to losses.

If this is Curry playing bad then consider what his impact is when he is playing well.

[Kurtz]

Another game where Curry through his supernatural gravitational force wills a team of cast-offs and G-leaguers to a win.

Closer to the truth than a lot of other takes out there. Hard to make the point more emphatically given the other leading contenders all scored 25+ —on their way to losses.

If this is Curry playing bad then consider what his impact is when he is playing well.

He was being sarcastic.

This whole gravity mythos is getting a bit out of hand - his gravity is no more noticeable than for the other mvp candidates.

His on/off is +16.5. That's excellent, but well behind Joker (23.6), Giannis (20.7) and KD/Lebron (18.2).

[WarriorGM]

Another game where Curry through his supernatural gravitational force wills a team of cast-offs and G-leaguers to a win.

Closer to the truth than a lot of other takes out there. Hard to make the point more emphatically given the other leading contenders all scored 25+ —on their way to losses.

If this is Curry playing bad then consider what his impact is when he is playing well.

He was being sarcastic.

This whole gravity mythos is getting a bit out of hand - his gravity is no more noticeable than for the other mvp candidates.

His on/off is +16.5. That's excellent, but well behind Joker (23.6), Giannis (20.7) and KD/Lebron (18.2).

My sarcasm edit came in before I saw your post.

Curry's style of play has beneficial influence on his team that goes beyond on/off. The way Curry plays allows his teammates to become better rather than just standing around. That's why when you have the odd game where Curry's shooting is off his teammates are well-practiced enough at playing winning ball to execute.

Curry can score zero, he'd still be the MVP.