2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4)

[AussieBuck]

Giannis has done a bunch of this.

[Hoop Heavy]

also Draymond is the obvious one besides Jokic

Yes of course. You guys are right about all of those guys. I guess I didn't explain myself well enough.

I yield that if you view him as a big with point guard skills, he's nothing special. Still, those guys ARE centers.

I instead see him as a monstrous guard - basically the same size as Magic - whose long and strong enough to play center. That was the angle I thought was somewhat unique. If you consider it from a Jokic/Draymond/Giannis etc. perspective, of course Scottie still has a lot of room to grow.

[tundraknight]

also Draymond is the obvious one besides Jokic

Yes of course. You guys are right about all of those guys. I guess I didn't explain myself well enough.

I yield that if you view him as a big with point guard skills, he's nothing special. Still, those guys ARE centers.

I instead see him as a monstrous guard - basically the same size as Magic - whose long and strong enough to play center. That was the angle I thought was somewhat unique. If you consider it from a Jokic/Draymond/Giannis etc. perspective, of course Scottie still has a lot of room to grow.

On the NBA Raptors team website, Barnes is just listed as a forward. On Wikipedia he’s listed as a PF. On most draft websites I’ve seen him listed as a combo forward.

So perhaps just because you can do some ball handling and passing it doesn’t necessarily make you a “guard”.

Although to be fair, this is supposed to be the era of “position-less” basketball that I hear about often so I guess it doesn’t really matter what exact position you or anyone else perceives him as.

[everdiso]

He's pretty much the 5 on the starting unit and then the 1 when Freddy's off the floor.

Pretty cool.

[CIN-C-STAR]

It's called a point forward and it's not really a new thing.

[basketballRob]

You've seen me make that excuse for Scottie? Nope.

What's next? Wagner would get more blocks if we put him on a smaller player?

All I've said is Wagner plays in a lineup where it isn't his role to rebound. Just like Scottie is currently in a lineup that's going to be hard for him to put up scoring stats. Giddey is in a lineup where his role is to rebound.

If they put Scottie as the number one scoring option, he might get 25 PPG. If Franz played with a 6'7" center and no PF, he'd average 7 RPG.





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this is quite the rabbit hole for something that isn't that deep...it isn't hard to understand that you might not get many boards when you're on the perimeter most of the time and he isn't required to crash the boards....what he's doing is just fine for his role, why is this even an argument? i mean am i missing something?

It's a daily jab at Wagner because he's 6'10" and doesn't put up good rebounding stats. My argument is that a player's role has a lot to do with the stats that a player puts up.

For example, Scottie is being used as more of a facilitator since they got everyone back. So likely his assists will go up and his PPG will go down.

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[TheLand13]

I showed you the stats of both Barnes and Mobley at the end of NOV. Please open your eyes and see them.

You can show me those stats all you want to. The gap isn't wide enough to warrant putting Barnes over Mobley when Mobley's defensive impact is far greater than the numbers Barnes put up. For some reason you aren't getting this, despite multiple people having pointed it out to you.

Barnes was beating Mobley soundly on stats alone.

Beating someone by less than 1 in any statistical category is not "soundly".

Barnes had better points, assists, steals and almost same rebounds. Mobley was only better in blocks.

And this, in return, showcases your complete lack of understanding of how voting based on ROY works.

No wonder Barnes was ranked #1 in NBA Rookie Ladder for 4 weeks out of the 6 weeks of OCT & NOV. Btw for the other 2 weeks he was ranked #2.

And?

If ROM was only about stats then Barnes had it in bag for OCT & NOV. But he did not win it which means another factor was also into play and that factor had bigger weightage than stats.

Yeah, it's called overall impact on the game. How long have you been watching basketball for? Surely you must know that there are other things that players do that don't show up in the box score, right?

Okay okay, let me ask you this: Do you think Dennis Rodman was a great defensive player?

And that factor was team winning and how much rookie is helping in team winning. Cavs were winning and Mobley was helping Cavs in winning games. Raptors were losing and Barnes was not able to help Raptors win. Simples.

Buddy, re-read what you just said. You just outright stated why your logic does not and cannot work. If this entire thing was record based, then it would not have mattered what Mobley was doing for his team. By your logic, Mobley could have just been playing like ****, but his team is still winning and thus he deserves ROM. No, that's not how any of this works.

Carmelo Anthony had LeBron James beat across the board in terms of stats in their rookie year AND took his team to the **** playoffs. And yet LeBron James still won ROY. How could that be? Better record AND better stats? I mean, clearly something must be off here, right?

(and before you try to pull the "LeBron only trailed by .1 in the points department, just know that Carmelo had better shooting stats across the board so...).

You want to know what teams are doing in regards to Barnes when they go up against him? They are just treating him like another player. A good player who is capable of putting up numbers, sure, but just another player. You want to know what teams are doing in regards to Mobley when they go up against him? They are being forced to change their game plan. They can't just force him out on the perimeter and take advantage of him like they would a normal big. He's been able to stop guys like Damian Lillard, Trae Young and Tyler Herro in their tracks out there, and one of those stops won his team a game. These are guys that the best perimeter defenders in the league have trouble containing. His style of play has brought out the best in guys like Garland and Allen who are legitimate all star contenders this year and are thriving playing alongside him. Even Collin Sexton, known before for being a massive defensive liability, was actually have a decent year on defense because he knew that he could just stay right up in his opponents face (his footwork on defense is surprisingly decent) and could get away with it because if they got past him, Mobley and Allen are back there waiting.

That is why Mobley won ROM over Barnes on both occasions, and the only reason he didn't win it in December is because he didn't play enough games (and right now, he's on track to easily win it this month although it is still early). The amount of wins the Cavaliers have is the cherry on top, but that's never mattered. What matters is what Mobley is doing to help them win in the first place. That is why LeBron won ROY over Carmelo, even though Carmelo had better stats and took his team to the playoffs, LeBron was still far more instrumental to Cleveland's wins than Carmelo was. It all comes down to impact. It was never record based and it never will be.

[Hoop Heavy]

also Draymond is the obvious one besides Jokic

Yes of course. You guys are right about all of those guys. I guess I didn't explain myself well enough.

I yield that if you view him as a big with point guard skills, he's nothing special. Still, those guys ARE centers.

I instead see him as a monstrous guard - basically the same size as Magic - whose long and strong enough to play center. That was the angle I thought was somewhat unique. If you consider it from a Jokic/Draymond/Giannis etc. perspective, of course Scottie still has a lot of room to grow.

On the NBA Raptors team website, Barnes is just listed as a forward. On Wikipedia he’s listed as a PF. On most draft websites I’ve seen him listed as a combo forward.

So perhaps just because you can do some ball handling and passing it doesn’t necessarily make you a “guard”.

Although to be fair, this is supposed to be the era of “position-less” basketball that I hear about often so I guess it doesn’t really matter what exact position you or anyone else perceives him as.

I could be wrong ... but I think he was considered a point guard at Florida state. Anyway, I agree that if you are using the lens of "positionless basketball" the whole think is foolish. I appreciate that the Raps are starting to play Fred offball and let Scottie run the offense more.

Still, while there is such a thing as a point-forward and point-center as we have discussed, my take was he is a (huge) point-guard playing center on D.

[PhilBlackson]

Cade has the highest ceiling but his inconsistency is worrying sign.

While I'm certainly not saying Cade doesn't have a high ceiling but there's no way that's a conclusive statement with Mobley & Barnes in this draft class. I would actually argue if they all reached the height of their potentials that those 2 would actually be higher due to the physical advantages over Cade but we'll see how each guy develops and Cade does have a special feel for the game.

[NRSV]

I posted stats in another thread on the front page. Mobley is a top 10 defender in the NBA already. This is such a huge advantage over other rookies that it makes him the best rookie by default considering he’s scoring 15 ppg on good efficiency.

If he pushes himself over 20 PPG with increasingly good efficiency, he laps the competition and easily has the highest ceiling.

[reamily]

To be fair you cant measure greatness in bad teams thats why Scottie and Mobley has advantage because they contribute and growing with good teams..and for second time just like watching a michigan game, Franz wagner is nonexistent..

[thelead]

To be fair you cant measure greatness in bad teams thats why Scottie and Mobley has advantage because they contribute and growing with good teams..and for second time just like watching a michigan game, Franz wagner is nonexistent..

He shot 4-10 while Cole-World shot 5-18 and froze out the rook. It has been a concern for me as the magic are slowly getting healthier. Franz was completely shut out of the offense in the second half by his own team while Cole, Gary Harris, and TRoss led the way to a loss

[reamily]

To be fair you cant measure greatness in bad teams thats why Scottie and Mobley has advantage because they contribute and growing with good teams..and for second time just like watching a michigan game, Franz wagner is nonexistent..

He shot 4-10 while Cole-World shot 5-18 and froze out the rook. It has been a concern for me as the magic are slowly getting healthier. Franz was completely shut out of the offense in the second half by his own team while Cole, Gary Harris, and TRoss led the way to a loss

Yup for cade he can do 20 shots per game at least he is taking shots needed to take and pass the ball when you need it to pass..

[SOUL]

To be fair you cant measure greatness in bad teams thats why Scottie and Mobley has advantage because they contribute and growing with good teams..and for second time just like watching a michigan game, Franz wagner is nonexistent..

He shot 4-10 while Cole-World shot 5-18 and froze out the rook. It has been a concern for me as the magic are slowly getting healthier. Franz was completely shut out of the offense in the second half by his own team while Cole, Gary Harris, and TRoss led the way to a loss

Yup for cade he can do 20 shots per game at least he is taking shots needed to take and pass the ball when you need it to pass..

You're fun at parties. Nitpicking when a rookie has a subpar game (and with Franz they have come way more rarely than anyone expected), on a hobbled ankle no less. Probably shouldn't have played.

A lot of rookies are having some random stinkers lately. They're getting a lot of minutes and the lineups are changing so much that they're settling into roles. But that's part of being a rookie. This class has been spoiling people so far

[thelead]

He shot 4-10 while Cole-World shot 5-18 and froze out the rook. It has been a concern for me as the magic are slowly getting healthier. Franz was completely shut out of the offense in the second half by his own team while Cole, Gary Harris, and TRoss led the way to a loss

Yup for cade he can do 20 shots per game at least he is taking shots needed to take and pass the ball when you need it to pass..

You're fun at parties. Nitpicking when a rookie has a subpar game (and with Franz they have come way more rarely than anyone expected), on a hobbled ankle no less. Probably shouldn't have played.

A lot of rookies are having some random stinkers lately. They're getting a lot of minutes and the lineups are changing so much that they're settling into roles. But that's part of being a rookie. This class has been spoiling people so far

Did he have a stinker or did he just get stuck in the corner and not touch the ball? I didn't see him hobbling out there. I saw him not being involved in the offense at all though while other's chucked their way to a loss. That's not on him. I'm not bothered by his play tonight.

[reamily]

He shot 4-10 while Cole-World shot 5-18 and froze out the rook. It has been a concern for me as the magic are slowly getting healthier. Franz was completely shut out of the offense in the second half by his own team while Cole, Gary Harris, and TRoss led the way to a loss

Yup for cade he can do 20 shots per game at least he is taking shots needed to take and pass the ball when you need it to pass..

You're fun at parties. Nitpicking when a rookie has a subpar game (and with Franz they have come way more rarely than anyone expected), on a hobbled ankle no less. Probably shouldn't have played.

A lot of rookies are having some random stinkers lately. They're getting a lot of minutes and the lineups are changing so much that they're settling into roles. But that's part of being a rookie. This class has been spoiling people so far

Yup youre correct about it..

[NRSV]

TLDR:

Evan Mobley is in the 99th percentile as a rim protector and has an elite impact on his team's defense.

#DealWithIt

[Bhut Jolokia]

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[holdenwait]

Yurtseven is on a mission

[whitehops]

He shot 4-10 while Cole-World shot 5-18 and froze out the rook. It has been a concern for me as the magic are slowly getting healthier. Franz was completely shut out of the offense in the second half by his own team while Cole, Gary Harris, and TRoss led the way to a loss

Yeah I was kinda disappointed, I was looking forward to seeing my first full game of Wagner but he really didn’t even touch the ball much. He even played less minutes than he usually so I’m not gonna make any judgements based off this game.

The Pistons play the magic at the end of the month, hopefully that’s a more exciting game to see Wagner and Cade.