Shams: Grizzlies trade Desmond Bane to Magic for KCP, Cole Anthony, 4 1sts, 1 Pick Swap...

[OrlandoDream]

Six games in huh? You've outdone yourselves realGM. FYI, Bane has been fine. He is not the problem for the poor start. He is being very unselfish and looking to pass and get Paolo/Franz going early. Mosely does need to do a better job at running some plays for him but I wont get my hopes up. I expect our next coach to be an experienced NBA coach who knows how to use our core players' strengths.

[MrBigShot]

Bane is a really good player and has been an excellent 3pt shooter his entire career. He will play better.

That being said, I still think the magic will regret the trade. He's good, but there was an opportunity cost to giving up those picks to get him, and I think if they held out they could've acquired someone better.

[anotherhomer]

Bane is a really good player and has been an excellent 3pt shooter his entire career. He will play better.

That being said, I still think the magic will regret the trade. He's good, but there was an opportunity cost to giving up those picks to get him, and I think if they held out they could've acquired someone better.

and the grizzlies find their replacement in cedric

[KGtabake]

I don't understand why they let go Cole Anthony since the void at PG is so obvious as some of you mention (i don't have an opinion since i haven't watched them yet).
He's been very good with Milwaukee off the bench.

[Chuck Everett]

I don't understand why they let go Cole Anthony since the void at PG is so obvious as some of you mention (i don't have an opinion since i haven't watched them yet).
He's been very good with Milwaukee off the bench.

They gave Cole ample opportunity to solidify his spot in Orlando. It just didn't work. Perhaps the change of scenery is doing him some good. That's a guy who talks a lot and when you get traded and waived, it can have a positive effect. He was too comfortable in Orlando.

[basketballRob]

Bane gets into lulls sometimes. Last November, he shot 35/24/68 for 10.6 ppg. He ended the season with 48/39/89 with 19.2 ppg. That's almost a 50/40/90 season after starting so bad.

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[CP War Hawks]

Magic always needed a table setter not another sg. Truly better off playing Suggs at the 2. Way too many players and few shots to give to everyone w/o a pg to direct.

[basketballRob]

Magic always needed a table setter not another sg. Truly better off playing Suggs at the 2. Way too many players and few shots to give to everyone w/o a pg to direct.

I actually like Suggs playing PG on this team. This biggest team need right now is a 3 and D SG to backup Bane.

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[Sane]

Magic are like the Rockets 1 year back. They'll be really good this season but the coach seems to only know how to coach old school offenses that are very predictable to other teams. Will take him a long time to optimize it but he will eventually. You need to grab more offensive rebounds to make up for your coach on that end.

I don't think it's reasonable to say this squad shouldn't have an above average offense, that's almost 5-out with 3 different playmakers:

WCJ
Banchero
Wagner
Bane
Suggs

That's an excellent team and they have good talent on the bench. They don't necessarily need a PG - it can be coached multiple ways. They need an offensive system that suits their personnel. Mosley has done a lot for that team but if he doesn't evolve with them he'll find himself on the outside looking in.

[HotelVitale]

Magic always needed a table setter not another sg. Truly better off playing Suggs at the 2. Way too many players and few shots to give to everyone w/o a pg to direct.

Hmm do you think they really need a table-setting PG to get into their sets? Not many teams have that anymore and it seems like guys like paolo and franz can get going in their spots okay. It seems like they more so need something to make their offense fluid and faster, but that's maybe the fault of having two big sort of iso-y creators.

[VFX]

Magic always needed a table setter not another sg. Truly better off playing Suggs at the 2. Way too many players and few shots to give to everyone w/o a pg to direct.

Hmm do you think they really need a table-setting PG to get into their sets? Not many teams have that anymore and it seems like guys like paolo and franz can get going in their spots okay. It seems like they more so need something to make their offense fluid and faster, but that's maybe the fault of having two big sort of iso-y creators.

Yes.

Paolo and Franz can be iso-y, but they need to take the next step in their development and learn how to be effective on offense off-ball. They are both guys that need the ball. While they are good in that aspect, this iteration of the Magic would have been better off with a point guard that can get them into better scoring opportunities, rather than upgrading one position with volume shooting without the system that lends itself to that player.

Jalen Suggs was a fine option as a SG 3-D guy that sets the tone defensively for others. He isn't a playmaking point that gets guys better looks on the floor.

[BadMofoPimp]

Magic always needed a table setter not another sg. Truly better off playing Suggs at the 2. Way too many players and few shots to give to everyone w/o a pg to direct.

Hmm do you think they really need a table-setting PG to get into their sets? Not many teams have that anymore and it seems like guys like paolo and franz can get going in their spots okay. It seems like they more so need something to make their offense fluid and faster, but that's maybe the fault of having two big sort of iso-y creators.

Yes.

Paolo and Franz can be iso-y, but they need to take the next step in their development and learn how to be effective on offense off-ball. They are both guys that need the ball. While they are good in that aspect, this iteration of the Magic would have been better off with a point guard that can get them into better scoring opportunities, rather than upgrading one position with volume shooting without the system that lends itself to that player.

Jalen Suggs was a fine option as a SG 3-D guy that sets the tone defensively for others. He isn't a playmaking point that gets guys better looks on the floor.

When you have 4 players on that offense who can all dish out assists and all play good with the ball in their hands, there is no need for a traditional PG.

[VFX]

Hmm do you think they really need a table-setting PG to get into their sets? Not many teams have that anymore and it seems like guys like paolo and franz can get going in their spots okay. It seems like they more so need something to make their offense fluid and faster, but that's maybe the fault of having two big sort of iso-y creators.

Yes.

Paolo and Franz can be iso-y, but they need to take the next step in their development and learn how to be effective on offense off-ball. They are both guys that need the ball. While they are good in that aspect, this iteration of the Magic would have been better off with a point guard that can get them into better scoring opportunities, rather than upgrading one position with volume shooting without the system that lends itself to that player.

Jalen Suggs was a fine option as a SG 3-D guy that sets the tone defensively for others. He isn't a playmaking point that gets guys better looks on the floor.

When you have 4 players on that offense who can all dish out assists and all play good with the ball in their hands, there is no need for a traditional PG.

Yeah the offense has looked great the last few years, including this one.

[HotelVitale]

Magic always needed a table setter not another sg. Truly better off playing Suggs at the 2. Way too many players and few shots to give to everyone w/o a pg to direct.

Hmm do you think they really need a table-setting PG to get into their sets? Not many teams have that anymore and it seems like guys like paolo and franz can get going in their spots okay. It seems like they more so need something to make their offense fluid and faster, but that's maybe the fault of having two big sort of iso-y creators.

Yes.

Paolo and Franz can be iso-y, but they need to take the next step in their development and learn how to be effective on offense off-ball. They are both guys that need the ball. While they are good in that aspect, this iteration of the Magic would have been better off with a point guard that can get them into better scoring opportunities, rather than upgrading one position with volume shooting without the system that lends itself to that player.

Jalen Suggs was a fine option as a SG 3-D guy that sets the tone defensively for others. He isn't a playmaking point that gets guys better looks on the floor.

I think I get the idea but maybe don't know what you're really envisioning. Best guess you're either talking about a really sick PG like Haliburton (good version) or Luka who makes a whole modern offense hum constantly (who's not gonna be available), or you're talking about a theoretical idea of a PG who somehow initiates in a way that plays to everyone's off-ball strength. Both of those seem not super attainable for a couple of draft picks. I get that the Magic need someone to give the offense simple structure and to get guys into their best position, but have a hard time seeing how that'd actually be done.

Do you have someone in mind? I think of PGs these days as 1) guys who are quite good at bringing the ball up and organizing the offense into its best sets and positions (e.g. Harden is terrific at this, someone like Tyus Jones is more okay version) or 2) big scoring threat guys who can try to penetrate all day to create dump offs and kick outs (guys like Maxey, Mitchell, Kyrie, Curry, Cade etc).

What I was saying before is that, in the offense that gets played today, having two good big initiators who can't shoot that reliably makes for a tough PG fit. I agree that someone who can do lots of setting up while also being a solid shooter and scorer would be better than someone like Bane, but I'm not sure who that'd be or if it'd really unlock a next level for those guys. (Though i do get the idea more I try to vision it). Also can't sleep on the fact that Bane's shooting and secondary handling did fill a big need, and that he was chosen to try to solve the exact problem you're afer.

[Doctor MJ]

Hmm do you think they really need a table-setting PG to get into their sets? Not many teams have that anymore and it seems like guys like paolo and franz can get going in their spots okay. It seems like they more so need something to make their offense fluid and faster, but that's maybe the fault of having two big sort of iso-y creators.

Yes.

Paolo and Franz can be iso-y, but they need to take the next step in their development and learn how to be effective on offense off-ball. They are both guys that need the ball. While they are good in that aspect, this iteration of the Magic would have been better off with a point guard that can get them into better scoring opportunities, rather than upgrading one position with volume shooting without the system that lends itself to that player.

Jalen Suggs was a fine option as a SG 3-D guy that sets the tone defensively for others. He isn't a playmaking point that gets guys better looks on the floor.

I think I get the idea but maybe don't know what you're really envisioning. Best guess you're either talking about a really sick PG like Haliburton (good version) or Luka who makes a whole modern offense hum constantly (who's not gonna be available), or you're talking about a theoretical idea of a PG who somehow initiates in a way that plays to everyone's off-ball strength. Both of those seem not super attainable for a couple of draft picks. I get that the Magic need someone to give the offense simple structure and to get guys into their best position, but have a hard time seeing how that'd actually be done.

Do you have someone in mind? I think of PGs these days as 1) guys who are quite good at bringing the ball up and organizing the offense into its best sets and positions (e.g. Harden is terrific at this, someone like Tyus Jones is more okay version) or 2) big scoring threat guys who can try to penetrate all day to create dump offs and kick outs (guys like Maxey, Mitchell, Kyrie, Curry, Cade etc).

What I was saying before is that, in the offense that gets played today, having two good big initiators who can't shoot that reliably makes for a tough PG fit. I agree that someone who can do lots of setting up while also being a solid shooter and scorer would be better than someone like Bane, but I'm not sure who that'd be or if it'd really unlock a next level for those guys. (Though i do get the idea more I try to vision it). Also can't sleep on the fact that Bane's shooting and secondary handling did fill a big need, and that he was chosen to try to solve the exact problem you're afer.

So, I think you're overlooking something here:

When Paolo was at Duke, the primary facilitator wasn't Paolo, it was Wendell Moore, who - because he was waived by the Celtics - the Magic can probably just go out and get.

Now I'm sure everyone would say: You want the Magic to build their offense around Wendell Moore?!!!

But I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that there are guys who aren't in the NBA or getting paid big money elsewhere who there's every reason to expect would do a better job running the offense than Paolo, and hence it's really not a question of wondering how you can get Luka or Hali, because there's no shortage of players who can run an offense better than Paolo can.

Hence, really the thing is that the Magic chose to run their offense around Paolo not because they couldn't get a better facilitator than him, but because they hoped he could be their LeBron, and this was very clearly not a decision that made any sense based on what would work best early in Paolo's career.

It was always a question of when and whether Paolo would figure out how to do the job, not a question of whether it was hard to find someone better at the floor general's position than young Paolo.

Re: Franz not great off-ball. I would just point out that on the national German team they've been having great success with Franz letting Dennis Schroeder be the on-ball player. This along with the fact that the Magic have always done much better with Franz on the floor means that I wouldn't worry about Franz not being versatile enough to play a variety of roles depending on the talent around him.

So yeah, I don't think it's hard at all to figure out how to make the Magic a better offense without adding an outlier point guard talent. The question is just what place Paolo has on a contender if he never turns the corner as a decision maker or shooter or defender.

[HotelVitale]

Yes.

Paolo and Franz can be iso-y, but they need to take the next step in their development and learn how to be effective on offense off-ball. They are both guys that need the ball. While they are good in that aspect, this iteration of the Magic would have been better off with a point guard that can get them into better scoring opportunities, rather than upgrading one position with volume shooting without the system that lends itself to that player.

Jalen Suggs was a fine option as a SG 3-D guy that sets the tone defensively for others. He isn't a playmaking point that gets guys better looks on the floor.

I think I get the idea but maybe don't know what you're really envisioning. Best guess you're either talking about a really sick PG like Haliburton (good version) or Luka who makes a whole modern offense hum constantly (who's not gonna be available), or you're talking about a theoretical idea of a PG who somehow initiates in a way that plays to everyone's off-ball strength. Both of those seem not super attainable for a couple of draft picks. I get that the Magic need someone to give the offense simple structure and to get guys into their best position, but have a hard time seeing how that'd actually be done.

Do you have someone in mind? I think of PGs these days as 1) guys who are quite good at bringing the ball up and organizing the offense into its best sets and positions (e.g. Harden is terrific at this, someone like Tyus Jones is more okay version) or 2) big scoring threat guys who can try to penetrate all day to create dump offs and kick outs (guys like Maxey, Mitchell, Kyrie, Curry, Cade etc).

What I was saying before is that, in the offense that gets played today, having two good big initiators who can't shoot that reliably makes for a tough PG fit. I agree that someone who can do lots of setting up while also being a solid shooter and scorer would be better than someone like Bane, but I'm not sure who that'd be or if it'd really unlock a next level for those guys. (Though i do get the idea more I try to vision it). Also can't sleep on the fact that Bane's shooting and secondary handling did fill a big need, and that he was chosen to try to solve the exact problem you're afer.

So, I think you're overlooking something here:

When Paolo was at Duke, the primary facilitator wasn't Paolo, it was Wendell Moore, who - because he was waived by the Celtics - the Magic can probably just go out and get.

Now I'm sure everyone would say: You want the Magic to build their offense around Wendell Moore?!!!

But I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that there are guys who aren't in the NBA or getting paid big money elsewhere who there's every reason to expect would do a better job running the offense than Paolo, and hence it's really not a question of wondering how you can get Luka or Hali, because there's no shortage of players who can run an offense better than Paolo can.

Hence, really the thing is that the Magic chose to run their offense around Paolo not because they couldn't get a better facilitator than him, but because they hoped he could be their LeBron, and this was very clearly not a decision that made any sense based on what would work best early in Paolo's career.

It was always a question of when and whether Paolo would figure out how to do the job, not a question of whether it was hard to find someone better at the floor general's position than young Paolo.

Re: Franz not great off-ball. I would just point out that on the national German team they've been having great success with Franz letting Dennis Schroeder be the on-ball player. This along with the fact that the Magic have always done much better with Franz on the floor means that I wouldn't worry about Franz not being versatile enough to play a variety of roles depending on the talent around him.

So yeah, I don't think it's hard at all to figure out how to make the Magic a better offense without adding an outlier point guard talent. The question is just what place Paolo has on a contender if he never turns the corner as a decision maker or shooter or defender.

I'm not doubting your premise but what I was saying is that the problem and solution are too abstract to be useful. First no one said Franz isn't good off ball, rather that having two cornerstones bigs who are best at slashing/driving and aren't strong shooters is a tough situation. Take the ball out of their hands and you're losing what makes them best, and you also have potential spacing issues. Which can be somewhat addressed by them being good at attacking closeouts--they'd both be stellar just doing that--but still doesn't solve the problem of who's then initiating to get the defense scrambling.

We all agree that Paolo is not the phenomenal lead do-it-all guy who can do that, but it seems like saying 'have him play off ball' just creates that same prpoblem of then not having a great lead initiator. And it's also too abstract to see what Paolo would be used as--do you want to have him mostly catching on the elbow and encouraging him to make quick moves, or mostly cutting and diving and not really dribble-initiating at all? That seems okay in theory but yeah you need really good initiators to make up for losing his volume. And the spacing thing could be real too.

Also the international game and the NCAA are vastly different from the NBA in general and the type of basketball played in the NBA right now, it's pretty specific these days. So I'm not sure if the general comparison of how Duke and the German national teams played helps at all, but beyond that we all know that it's just not enough to say 'get someone like Wendell Moore or Schroeder but the better NBA versions.' That sort of sounds like Tyus Jones, and yeah he's obviously not good enough as a NBA player to take the balls from Paolo and Franz's hands. It's not easy to find guys who can make stuff happen all the time and constantly put pressure on the defense--you've probably seen enough of Tyus to know that he's good and can sometimes do that but many other times he just can't.

Again I don't think you're wrong, and the Magic clearly need to speed up and get the ball pinging better, but the hard part is who's doing what to make that happen. Guys who can consistently break down defenses and get off ball cutting and kicking going for their team are the stars now, I can agree the Magic could really use one of them but not easy to make that happen. It's why teams with solid depth and structure like the Pacers and Celtics went from legit contenders to lotto bound when they lost their offensive creator-engines (and why my Sixers would be a glorified g-league team without Maxey this year).

[Doctor MJ]

I think I get the idea but maybe don't know what you're really envisioning. Best guess you're either talking about a really sick PG like Haliburton (good version) or Luka who makes a whole modern offense hum constantly (who's not gonna be available), or you're talking about a theoretical idea of a PG who somehow initiates in a way that plays to everyone's off-ball strength. Both of those seem not super attainable for a couple of draft picks. I get that the Magic need someone to give the offense simple structure and to get guys into their best position, but have a hard time seeing how that'd actually be done.

Do you have someone in mind? I think of PGs these days as 1) guys who are quite good at bringing the ball up and organizing the offense into its best sets and positions (e.g. Harden is terrific at this, someone like Tyus Jones is more okay version) or 2) big scoring threat guys who can try to penetrate all day to create dump offs and kick outs (guys like Maxey, Mitchell, Kyrie, Curry, Cade etc).

What I was saying before is that, in the offense that gets played today, having two good big initiators who can't shoot that reliably makes for a tough PG fit. I agree that someone who can do lots of setting up while also being a solid shooter and scorer would be better than someone like Bane, but I'm not sure who that'd be or if it'd really unlock a next level for those guys. (Though i do get the idea more I try to vision it). Also can't sleep on the fact that Bane's shooting and secondary handling did fill a big need, and that he was chosen to try to solve the exact problem you're afer.

So, I think you're overlooking something here:

When Paolo was at Duke, the primary facilitator wasn't Paolo, it was Wendell Moore, who - because he was waived by the Celtics - the Magic can probably just go out and get.

Now I'm sure everyone would say: You want the Magic to build their offense around Wendell Moore?!!!

But I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that there are guys who aren't in the NBA or getting paid big money elsewhere who there's every reason to expect would do a better job running the offense than Paolo, and hence it's really not a question of wondering how you can get Luka or Hali, because there's no shortage of players who can run an offense better than Paolo can.

Hence, really the thing is that the Magic chose to run their offense around Paolo not because they couldn't get a better facilitator than him, but because they hoped he could be their LeBron, and this was very clearly not a decision that made any sense based on what would work best early in Paolo's career.

It was always a question of when and whether Paolo would figure out how to do the job, not a question of whether it was hard to find someone better at the floor general's position than young Paolo.

Re: Franz not great off-ball. I would just point out that on the national German team they've been having great success with Franz letting Dennis Schroeder be the on-ball player. This along with the fact that the Magic have always done much better with Franz on the floor means that I wouldn't worry about Franz not being versatile enough to play a variety of roles depending on the talent around him.

So yeah, I don't think it's hard at all to figure out how to make the Magic a better offense without adding an outlier point guard talent. The question is just what place Paolo has on a contender if he never turns the corner as a decision maker or shooter or defender.

I'm not doubting your premise but what I was saying is that the problem and solution are too abstract to be useful. First no one said Franz isn't good off ball, rather that having two cornerstones bigs who are best at slashing/driving and aren't strong shooters is a tough situation. Take the ball out of their hands and you're losing what makes them best, and you also have potential spacing issues. Which can be somewhat addressed by them being good at attacking closeouts--they'd both be stellar just doing that--but still doesn't solve the problem of who's then initiating to get the defense scrambling.

We all agree that Paolo is not the phenomenal lead do-it-all guy who can do that, but it seems like saying 'have him play off ball' just creates that same prpoblem of then not having a great lead initiator. And it's also too abstract to see what Paolo would be used as--do you want to have him mostly catching on the elbow and encouraging him to make quick moves, or mostly cutting and diving and not really dribble-initiating at all? That seems okay in theory but yeah you need really good initiators to make up for losing his volume. And the spacing thing could be real too.

Also the international game and the NCAA are vastly different from the NBA in general and the type of basketball played in the NBA right now, it's pretty specific these days. So I'm not sure if the general comparison of how Duke and the German national teams played helps at all, but beyond that we all know that it's just not enough to say 'get someone like Wendell Moore or Schroeder but the better NBA versions.' That sort of sounds like Tyus Jones, and yeah he's obviously not good enough as a NBA player to take the balls from Paolo and Franz's hands. It's not easy to find guys who can make stuff happen all the time and constantly put pressure on the defense--you've probably seen enough of Tyus to know that he's good and can sometimes do that but many other times he just can't.

Again I don't think you're wrong, and the Magic clearly need to speed up and get the ball pinging better, but the hard part is who's doing what to make that happen. Guys who can consistently break down defenses and get off ball cutting and kicking going for their team are the stars now, I can agree the Magic could really use one of them but not easy to make that happen. It's why teams with solid depth and structure like the Pacers and Celtics went from legit contenders to lotto bound when they lost their offensive creator-engines (and why my Sixers would be a glorified g-league team without Maxey this year).

So, you have good thoughts in general and a great tone, and I just want to make that clear up front.

But focusing on the part in bold, and I'm particularly struck by that phrase "too abstract to see what Paolo would be used as", well, see that's kinda the thing. I'm not offering a solution to how best to build around Paolo, I'm sharing my concern that there may not be a way to do it.

I think the idea that grabbing a replacement level point guard in Paolo's place on-ball would do a better job than Paolo does sounds absurd... but it really isn't. And if it is the case, than the only hope for Paolo is to figure out the off-ball game. If he can't do that either, then he won't have a place as a starter on a contending team.

I think the Magic need to be considering this as a distinct possibility and think through what their best options are should this prove to be the case.

I worry that they aren't.

[eyriq]

It's a winghub offense that requires elite spacers. Bane is the perfect fit.

[Lockdown504090]

Six games in huh? You've outdone yourselves realGM. FYI, Bane has been fine. He is not the problem for the poor start. He is being very unselfish and looking to pass and get Paolo/Franz going early. Mosely does need to do a better job at running some plays for him but I wont get my hopes up. I expect our next coach to be an experienced NBA coach who knows how to use our core players' strengths.

what do you summize the issue with orlando to be? i only saw some of the miami game this season so far.

[CP War Hawks]

Magic always needed a table setter not another sg. Truly better off playing Suggs at the 2. Way too many players and few shots to give to everyone w/o a pg to direct.

Hmm do you think they really need a table-setting PG to get into their sets? Not many teams have that anymore and it seems like guys like paolo and franz can get going in their spots okay. It seems like they more so need something to make their offense fluid and faster, but that's maybe the fault of having two big sort of iso-y creators.

Of course I do. Hindsight but I'd went for Holiday to pair with Suggs. They could of actually used those assets to acquire a stretch big like Porzingis or an upgrade to WCJ.