RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[MavsDirk41]

The high usage ball-dominant style that early MJ played has a lower ceiling than a more team-oriented offense like the Triangle. His resistance to switching to the triangle demonstrates a large gap between Phil's understanding of what it takes to win it all and MJ's.

Early MJ and early LeBron are similar in terms of taking their teams far and having a decent level of playoff success. But neither won it all playing ball dominant basketball. I don't think either one has an edge here.

Cumulative stats are extremely relevant to the conversation. There is no avoiding acknowledgiong LeBron's amazing accomplishments in that area. LeBron has almost a decade longer in the game than Jordan while still being impactful. That's not nothing.

LeBron also has great non-counting stats, even in the playoffs. #1 in playoff VORP during a single PS, #1 in playoff OBPM during a single PS, #1 in playoff WS/48 during a single PS, and holds 4 of the top 5 spots for highest OWS in a single postseason run.

MJ chose to leave the game of his own volition and pursue another sport. I don't think any excuses need to be made. But there is no filling in the missing years.

MJ's like a brighter bulb with a shorter lifespan. LeBron is like a slightly less bright bulb with a much longer lifespan. I'm not seeing a clear winner and LeBron's unheard of longevity is starting to give him an edge.

Ok yea Phil helped Jordan develop as a player. Most certainly. I can name numerous HC’s who helped players develop.

Cumulative stats are impressive but so is a player sticking with a lousy organization and turning it into a winner. Jordan didnt do it alone obviously but he was the centerpiece. He was the centerpiece of possibly the greatest dynasty in nba history.

I can post several stats that favor Jordan.

If James is your goat cool. But Jordan is the greatest player that i have ever seen. Picking your teammates and the finals collapses was a wrap for James as goat for me. Still top 3 player all time.

All these years later and you still haven't bothered to research how contacts were structured back then or what MJ's contacts looked like. Good grief.

So valiant of him to wait a WHOLE 3 seasons before the Bulls surrounded him with guys like Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant How did he ever manage that?

Happy Thanksgiving Taj FTW

[ScrantonBulls]

Ok yea Phil helped Jordan develop as a player. Most certainly. I can name numerous HC’s who helped players develop.

Cumulative stats are impressive but so is a player sticking with a lousy organization and turning it into a winner. Jordan didnt do it alone obviously but he was the centerpiece. He was the centerpiece of possibly the greatest dynasty in nba history.

I can post several stats that favor Jordan.

If James is your goat cool. But Jordan is the greatest player that i have ever seen. Picking your teammates and the finals collapses was a wrap for James as goat for me. Still top 3 player all time.

All these years later and you still haven't bothered to research how contacts were structured back then or what MJ's contacts looked like. Good grief.

So valiant of him to wait a WHOLE 3 seasons before the Bulls surrounded him with guys like Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant How did he ever manage that?

Happy Thanksgiving Taj FTW

That's certainly one way to admit somebody dismantled your talking points. Congrats.

[KayDee35]

Jordan’s last season before Phil coached the Bulls he averaged 8 assist a game. He was their top offensive player and playmaker. Tex Winters triangle certainly opened up the offense and took the ball out of Jordans hands but you also gotta account for Pippens growth after a few years in the league for their offensive improvement. Jordan needed another offensive playmaker and scoring option. Prior too this, he didnt have any help. Jordan averaging 35 and 8 assist per game. Bulls won 50 games in 87/88 with Sam Vincent their second leading scorer at 12 ppg. They beat Cleveland in the first round with Oakley their second leading scorer at 11 ppg. How was he not a winner lol?

How is James a better teammate and confidece builder? Colluding with other all star players? Creating superteams? Leaving when the going gets tough? Finding greener pastures? Did James have loyalty to anyone other than himself?

Cumulative stats is your thing i guess. Jordan has a higher RS winnjng pct, playoff winning pct, better record against 60 win teams in the playoffs, never lost HCA in the playoffs, more championships, more league mvps, more 60 win seasons, and played with less top end talent.

James might be a more versatile defender but not a overall better defender. I remember watching Cleveland in the playoffs back in 2018. I remember seeing James not box out, not switch defensively, not not chase his man off screens. There was no effort. He coast on defense.

And i have never seen Jordan look as vulnerable as James did in 2011. Jordan had something in him that James doesnt have. And part of why Jordan retired in 93 was because his father was murdered. Give the guy a break.

The high usage ball-dominant style that early MJ played has a lower ceiling than a more team-oriented offense like the Triangle. His resistance to switching to the triangle demonstrates a large gap between Phil's understanding of what it takes to win it all and MJ's.

Early MJ and early LeBron are similar in terms of taking their teams far and having a decent level of playoff success. But neither won it all playing ball dominant basketball. I don't think either one has an edge here.

Cumulative stats are extremely relevant to the conversation. There is no avoiding acknowledgiong LeBron's amazing accomplishments in that area. LeBron has almost a decade longer in the game than Jordan while still being impactful. That's not nothing.

LeBron also has great non-counting stats, even in the playoffs. #1 in playoff VORP during a single PS, #1 in playoff OBPM during a single PS, #1 in playoff WS/48 during a single PS, and holds 4 of the top 5 spots for highest OWS in a single postseason run.

MJ chose to leave the game of his own volition and pursue another sport. I don't think any excuses need to be made. But there is no filling in the missing years.

MJ's like a brighter bulb with a shorter lifespan. LeBron is like a slightly less bright bulb with a much longer lifespan. I'm not seeing a clear winner and LeBron's unheard of longevity is starting to give him an edge.

Ok yea Phil helped Jordan develop as a player. Most certainly. I can name numerous HC’s who helped players develop.

Cumulative stats are impressive but so is a player sticking with a lousy organization and turning it into a winner. Jordan didnt do it alone obviously but he was the centerpiece. He was the centerpiece of possibly the greatest dynasty in nba history.

I can post several stats that favor Jordan.

If James is your goat cool. But Jordan is the greatest player that i have ever seen. Picking your teammates and the finals collapses was a wrap for James as goat for me. Still top 3 player all time.

I can respect your reasons for rating MJ higher than LeBron. I had MJ a good deal higher than LBJ but LeBron's unmatched longevity while still remaining impactful is truly impressive and forces me to elevate him. I'm not saying he's passed MJ, but he keeps getting closer.

Also, the undisputed greatest NBA dynasty is Russell's Celtics. No other dynasty comes close to 11 rings, But a case can be made for the Bulls, the Lakers, the Warriors, the Spurs, etc. as the second greatest dynasty.

[MavsDirk41]

The high usage ball-dominant style that early MJ played has a lower ceiling than a more team-oriented offense like the Triangle. His resistance to switching to the triangle demonstrates a large gap between Phil's understanding of what it takes to win it all and MJ's.

Early MJ and early LeBron are similar in terms of taking their teams far and having a decent level of playoff success. But neither won it all playing ball dominant basketball. I don't think either one has an edge here.

Cumulative stats are extremely relevant to the conversation. There is no avoiding acknowledgiong LeBron's amazing accomplishments in that area. LeBron has almost a decade longer in the game than Jordan while still being impactful. That's not nothing.

LeBron also has great non-counting stats, even in the playoffs. #1 in playoff VORP during a single PS, #1 in playoff OBPM during a single PS, #1 in playoff WS/48 during a single PS, and holds 4 of the top 5 spots for highest OWS in a single postseason run.

MJ chose to leave the game of his own volition and pursue another sport. I don't think any excuses need to be made. But there is no filling in the missing years.

MJ's like a brighter bulb with a shorter lifespan. LeBron is like a slightly less bright bulb with a much longer lifespan. I'm not seeing a clear winner and LeBron's unheard of longevity is starting to give him an edge.

Ok yea Phil helped Jordan develop as a player. Most certainly. I can name numerous HC’s who helped players develop.

Cumulative stats are impressive but so is a player sticking with a lousy organization and turning it into a winner. Jordan didnt do it alone obviously but he was the centerpiece. He was the centerpiece of possibly the greatest dynasty in nba history.

I can post several stats that favor Jordan.

If James is your goat cool. But Jordan is the greatest player that i have ever seen. Picking your teammates and the finals collapses was a wrap for James as goat for me. Still top 3 player all time.

I can respect your reasons for rating MJ higher than LeBron. I had MJ a good deal higher than LBJ but LeBron's unmatched longevity while still remaining impactful is truly impressive and forces me to elevate him. I'm not saying he's passed MJ, but he keeps getting closer.

Also, the undisputed greatest NBA dynasty is Russell's Celtics. No other dynasty comes close to 11 rings, But a case can be made for the Bulls, the Lakers, the Warriors, the Spurs, etc. as the second greatest dynasty.

Yea i wasnt thinking about Russells Celtics when i wrote that post. Clearly the greatest dynasty ever no doubt. Russell imo is the greatest winner and probably overall leader in nba history. He is under appreciated on here for sure. Top 4 player all time.

[NbaAllDay]

Double**

[NbaAllDay]

The high usage ball-dominant style that early MJ played has a lower ceiling than a more team-oriented offense like the Triangle. His resistance to switching to the triangle demonstrates a large gap between Phil's understanding of what it takes to win it all and MJ's.

Early MJ and early LeBron are similar in terms of taking their teams far and having a decent level of playoff success. But neither won it all playing ball dominant basketball. I don't think either one has an edge here.

Cumulative stats are extremely relevant to the conversation. There is no avoiding acknowledgiong LeBron's amazing accomplishments in that area. LeBron has almost a decade longer in the game than Jordan while still being impactful. That's not nothing.

LeBron also has great non-counting stats, even in the playoffs. #1 in playoff VORP during a single PS, #1 in playoff OBPM during a single PS, #1 in playoff WS/48 during a single PS, and holds 4 of the top 5 spots for highest OWS in a single postseason run.

MJ chose to leave the game of his own volition and pursue another sport. I don't think any excuses need to be made. But there is no filling in the missing years.

MJ's like a brighter bulb with a shorter lifespan. LeBron is like a slightly less bright bulb with a much longer lifespan. I'm not seeing a clear winner and LeBron's unheard of longevity is starting to give him an edge.

Ok yea Phil helped Jordan develop as a player. Most certainly. I can name numerous HC’s who helped players develop.

Cumulative stats are impressive but so is a player sticking with a lousy organization and turning it into a winner. Jordan didnt do it alone obviously but he was the centerpiece. He was the centerpiece of possibly the greatest dynasty in nba history.

I can post several stats that favor Jordan.

If James is your goat cool. But Jordan is the greatest player that i have ever seen. Picking your teammates and the finals collapses was a wrap for James as goat for me. Still top 3 player all time.

I can respect your reasons for rating MJ higher than LeBron. I had MJ a good deal higher than LBJ but LeBron's unmatched longevity while still remaining impactful is truly impressive and forces me to elevate him. I'm not saying he's passed MJ, but he keeps getting closer.

Also, the undisputed greatest NBA dynasty is Russell's Celtics. No other dynasty comes close to 11 rings, But a case can be made for the Bulls, the Lakers, the Warriors, the Spurs, etc. as the second greatest dynasty.

Some good assessment here.

Mostly agree with the sheer quality of volume LeBron has as being the determining factor for me.

I go back and forth on peaks between the two.

MJ had a 'magical' 3 year run where his kit lined up on both ends through 91-93 which is hard to beat.

Lebron has had offensive peaks just as high but they have rarely lined up in consecutive years. His defensive peaks also didn't completely align with his offense making it awkward to gauge single season/3-4 year peaks.

He also had higher defensive impact (different defenders but Lebrons style (draymond lite to put it simply) had a greater impact imo. He also had higher peaks defensively than Jordan even if you subscribe to Lebron having slacker years on defense.

You could argue Jordans peak on offense was better, there is a case, but when you talk to how many years Lebron has had equal to or at least close offense with more impactful defense he comes ahead, if ever so slightly.

Even if you argued similar defense impact and had Jordan a bit above offensively, I don't know how you can argue just how much Longer Lebron has been impactful for.

The only ways I see people navigating this is by using bad faith arguements around Rings (shouldn't have to explain why this is lazy analysis) or coining "team hoping" while removing context from both sides. All of which is very lazy and dishonest in the analysis.

I have no issues with people who believe Jordan is the GOAT, I just dislike some of the dishonest ways in which people go about it. (Similar to those diminish MJ to favour Lebron) just less volume and generally less obnoxious.

I've been very high level with the analysis above as I have limited time these days but hopefully makes enough sense.

Edit: I'll also add the other dishonest commentary around Lebron 'only' having longevity and that is all he has to compare to MJ. Again very dishonest form of argument.

[JordansBulls]

Lebron lost with HCA to career losers in Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki at the time and then lost in round 1 with Peak Luka to Anthony Edwards with HCA. He had peak Duncan and Iverson and won bronze medal. He switched teams 5 times and still has 4 titles. A guy in his era who came in after him beat him head to head more and has as many titles as him in Steph Curry.
He joined guys who won league and or finals mvp's in order to win. Won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him despite playing with hall of famers. Doesn't make playoffs and then gets Anthony Davis and a title. Luka leads team to finals and then joins Lebron and loses in round 1 with HCA. Played with guys who won league mvp, finals mvp, DPOY, etc. Despite all of that 4 titles in 23 years while switching teams and stacking the deck. And this in an era with a guy like Shai just won a title and now has lost 1 game this season without his 2nd best player, but supposedly this is a stacked era. He lost to every elite big in his era. KG, Duncan, Dwight, Dirk, Jokic to name a few. Anthony Edwards beat Lebron and Jokic without HCA. Lets think about that for a second.

[KayDee35]

Lebron lost with HCA to career losers in Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki at the time and then lost in round 1 with Peak Luka to Anthony Edwards with HCA. He had peak Duncan and Iverson and won bronze medal. He switched teams 5 times and still has 4 titles. A guy in his era who came in after him beat him head to head more and has as many titles as him in Steph Curry.
He joined guys who won league and or finals mvp's in order to win. Won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him despite playing with hall of famers. Doesn't make playoffs and then gets Anthony Davis and a title. Luka leads team to finals and then joins Lebron and loses in round 1 with HCA. Played with guys who won league mvp, finals mvp, DPOY, etc. Despite all of that 4 titles in 23 years while switching teams and stacking the deck. And this in an era with a guy like Shai just won a title and now has lost 1 game this season without his 2nd best player, but supposedly this is a stacked era. He lost to every elite big in his era. KG, Duncan, Dwight, Dirk, Jokic to name a few. Anthony Edwards beat Lebron and Jokic without HCA. Lets think about that for a second.

There is so much in here that is either incorrect or stripped of context that it is misleading.

We can play the same game with MJ - I'm sure these threads are full of them. But it's too easy and adds nothing.

And this in an era with a guy like Shai just won a title and now has lost 1 game this season without his 2nd best player, but supposedly this is a stacked era.

This comment in particular demonstrates a lack of understanding the what is different about this era and is clueless as to of OKC's system and Shai's role in it. OKC keeps rolling while missing players because of how their system is designed. OKC went 5-1 without Shai last season.

When I see spurious arguments like this for one player that makes me wonder if that player has a strong enough case on their own merits. Or is that player's case so weak that we need to distort the facts to make them look better than they really were.

I am impressed by how fervently MJ and LeBron fans fight for 2nd place in the GOAT conversation, including using all manner of bad faith argumentation. Bill Russell's 11 rings make him untouchable as having the GOAT career.

[ball_takes23]

the Lakers would have been much better off both last year and this year if Lebron had given his $53M salary back and retired. Lebron is racking up bulk stats while making his team worse and getting the same credit for longevity that Brady was getting for making his team better while winning SB MVPs.

[JordansBulls]

Lebron lost with HCA to career losers in Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki at the time and then lost in round 1 with Peak Luka to Anthony Edwards with HCA. He had peak Duncan and Iverson and won bronze medal. He switched teams 5 times and still has 4 titles. A guy in his era who came in after him beat him head to head more and has as many titles as him in Steph Curry.
He joined guys who won league and or finals mvp's in order to win. Won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him despite playing with hall of famers. Doesn't make playoffs and then gets Anthony Davis and a title. Luka leads team to finals and then joins Lebron and loses in round 1 with HCA. Played with guys who won league mvp, finals mvp, DPOY, etc. Despite all of that 4 titles in 23 years while switching teams and stacking the deck. And this in an era with a guy like Shai just won a title and now has lost 1 game this season without his 2nd best player, but supposedly this is a stacked era. He lost to every elite big in his era. KG, Duncan, Dwight, Dirk, Jokic to name a few. Anthony Edwards beat Lebron and Jokic without HCA. Lets think about that for a second.

There is so much in here that is either incorrect or stripped of context that it is misleading.

We can play the same game with MJ - I'm sure these threads are full of them. But it's too easy and adds nothing.

And this in an era with a guy like Shai just won a title and now has lost 1 game this season without his 2nd best player, but supposedly this is a stacked era.

This comment in particular demonstrates a lack of understanding the what is different about this era and is clueless as to of OKC's system and Shai's role in it. OKC keeps rolling while missing players because of how their system is designed. OKC went 5-1 without Shai last season.

When I see spurious arguments like this for one player that makes me wonder if that player has a strong enough case on their own merits. Or is that player's case so weak that we need to distort the facts to make them look better than they really were.

I am impressed by how fervently MJ and LeBron fans fight for 2nd place in the GOAT conversation, including using all manner of bad faith argumentation. Bill Russell's 11 rings make him untouchable as having the GOAT career.

There is no game with MJ. MJ never lost with HCA. Also in Russel's era you only had to win 2 series to win a title while in MJ's you had to win 4 series. Russell won 25 series to get 11 titles and MJ 24 series to get 6 titles.
You speak of Shai, its irrevelant. He still had that amount to win titles. MJ never lost a series with HCA. No other top 10 player all time can say that.

[KayDee35]

Lebron lost with HCA to career losers in Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki at the time and then lost in round 1 with Peak Luka to Anthony Edwards with HCA. He had peak Duncan and Iverson and won bronze medal. He switched teams 5 times and still has 4 titles. A guy in his era who came in after him beat him head to head more and has as many titles as him in Steph Curry.
He joined guys who won league and or finals mvp's in order to win. Won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him despite playing with hall of famers. Doesn't make playoffs and then gets Anthony Davis and a title. Luka leads team to finals and then joins Lebron and loses in round 1 with HCA. Played with guys who won league mvp, finals mvp, DPOY, etc. Despite all of that 4 titles in 23 years while switching teams and stacking the deck. And this in an era with a guy like Shai just won a title and now has lost 1 game this season without his 2nd best player, but supposedly this is a stacked era. He lost to every elite big in his era. KG, Duncan, Dwight, Dirk, Jokic to name a few. Anthony Edwards beat Lebron and Jokic without HCA. Lets think about that for a second.

There is so much in here that is either incorrect or stripped of context that it is misleading.

We can play the same game with MJ - I'm sure these threads are full of them. But it's too easy and adds nothing.

And this in an era with a guy like Shai just won a title and now has lost 1 game this season without his 2nd best player, but supposedly this is a stacked era.

This comment in particular demonstrates a lack of understanding the what is different about this era and is clueless as to of OKC's system and Shai's role in it. OKC keeps rolling while missing players because of how their system is designed. OKC went 5-1 without Shai last season.

When I see spurious arguments like this for one player that makes me wonder if that player has a strong enough case on their own merits. Or is that player's case so weak that we need to distort the facts to make them look better than they really were.

I am impressed by how fervently MJ and LeBron fans fight for 2nd place in the GOAT conversation, including using all manner of bad faith argumentation. Bill Russell's 11 rings make him untouchable as having the GOAT career.

There is no game with MJ. MJ never lost with HCA. Also in Russel's era you only had to win 2 series to win a title while in MJ's you had to win 4 series. Russell won 25 series to get 11 titles and MJ 24 series to get 6 titles.
You speak of Shai, its irrevelant. He still had that amount to win titles. MJ never lost a series with HCA. No other top 10 player all time can say that.

MJ was eliminated 7 times in the playoffs. Russell only lost once in the playoffs when he wasn't injured. And he lost to the team that set the record for wins in a season and had a guy named Wilt on it.

MJ also missed the playoffs twice. Russell never did.

Russell's college career is much more impressive winning two NCAA title and becoming the first team to go undefeated on the way to a ring. Russell was a much better leader and coach too.

There's a reason no one else comes close to 11 rings.

[Tobin Tax]

In a team Sport, it's difficult to check who is the best single player.

Are we talking about a 1 on 1 competition?
Are we talking about who is the best scorer? the most spectacular? who sells more T-Shirts?

What means GREATEST ?

And then, we have to compare different decades. Basketball has changed a lot in between.

I understand the GOAT is the player who has done more that anyone else to his team to WIN ( in his era)

And the answer is BILL RUSSELL.

[The High Cyde]

In a team Sport, it's difficult to check who is the best single player.

Are we talking about a 1 on 1 competition?
Are we talking about who is the best scorer? the most spectacular? who sells more T-Shirts?

What means GREATEST ?

And then, we have to compare different decades. Basketball has changed a lot in between.

I understand the GOAT is the player who has done more that anyone else to his team to WIN ( in his era)

And the answer is BILL RUSSELL.

Russell is an honorary GOAT to me, no one can take away his impact and influence on the sport, I certainly don’t have a problem ranking all other players beneath him. He’s number 0 in a way.

[JordansBulls]

There is so much in here that is either incorrect or stripped of context that it is misleading.

We can play the same game with MJ - I'm sure these threads are full of them. But it's too easy and adds nothing.



This comment in particular demonstrates a lack of understanding the what is different about this era and is clueless as to of OKC's system and Shai's role in it. OKC keeps rolling while missing players because of how their system is designed. OKC went 5-1 without Shai last season.

When I see spurious arguments like this for one player that makes me wonder if that player has a strong enough case on their own merits. Or is that player's case so weak that we need to distort the facts to make them look better than they really were.

I am impressed by how fervently MJ and LeBron fans fight for 2nd place in the GOAT conversation, including using all manner of bad faith argumentation. Bill Russell's 11 rings make him untouchable as having the GOAT career.

There is no game with MJ. MJ never lost with HCA. Also in Russel's era you only had to win 2 series to win a title while in MJ's you had to win 4 series. Russell won 25 series to get 11 titles and MJ 24 series to get 6 titles.
You speak of Shai, its irrevelant. He still had that amount to win titles. MJ never lost a series with HCA. No other top 10 player all time can say that.

MJ was eliminated 7 times in the playoffs. Russell only lost once in the playoffs when he wasn't injured. And he lost to the team that set the record for wins in a season and had a guy named Wilt on it.

MJ also missed the playoffs twice. Russell never did.

Russell's college career is much more impressive winning two NCAA title and becoming the first team to go undefeated on the way to a ring. Russell was a much better leader and coach too.

There's a reason no one else comes close to 11 rings.

Russell joined a team with the league mvp and ROY who won it over him. It would be like Jordan joining the Celtics in 1985 with Bird and DJ.

[ScrantonBulls]

In a team Sport, it's difficult to check who is the best single player.

Are we talking about a 1 on 1 competition?
Are we talking about who is the best scorer? the most spectacular? who sells more T-Shirts?

What means GREATEST ?

And then, we have to compare different decades. Basketball has changed a lot in between.

I understand the GOAT is the player who has done more that anyone else to his team to WIN ( in his era)

And the answer is BILL RUSSELL.

Russell is an honorary GOAT to me, no one can take away his impact and influence on the sport, I certainly don’t have a problem ranking all other players beneath him. He’s number 0 in a way.

Truthfully, the fairest analysis is that Russell is THE GOAT while LeBron is the BOAT. Russell is the definition of "winning" in the NBA. The guy simply won nearly every damn time. He was the biggest reason his teams were unstoppable winning machines in the playoffs. The guy is simply the GOAT. That type of winning will never be matched.

LeBron however is the Best of all time (BOAT). Such an unbelievably long run of greatness in the league. Shattering records left and right which will never be broken. The greatest playoff performance ever (leading all players on both teams in the 5 big box score stats while coming back from down 3-1 to beat the 73-9 team). It's at the point where there is no argument - he is simply the best of all time.

[ScrantonBulls]

There is no game with MJ. MJ never lost with HCA. Also in Russel's era you only had to win 2 series to win a title while in MJ's you had to win 4 series. Russell won 25 series to get 11 titles and MJ 24 series to get 6 titles.
You speak of Shai, its irrevelant. He still had that amount to win titles. MJ never lost a series with HCA. No other top 10 player all time can say that.

MJ was eliminated 7 times in the playoffs. Russell only lost once in the playoffs when he wasn't injured. And he lost to the team that set the record for wins in a season and had a guy named Wilt on it.

MJ also missed the playoffs twice. Russell never did.

Russell's college career is much more impressive winning two NCAA title and becoming the first team to go undefeated on the way to a ring. Russell was a much better leader and coach too.

There's a reason no one else comes close to 11 rings.

Russell joined a team with the league mvp and ROY who won it over him. It would be like Jordan joining the Celtics in 1985 with Bird and DJ.

Nice excuses here. Bill's 11 rings don't have time for excuses.

[KayDee35]

There is no game with MJ. MJ never lost with HCA. Also in Russel's era you only had to win 2 series to win a title while in MJ's you had to win 4 series. Russell won 25 series to get 11 titles and MJ 24 series to get 6 titles.
You speak of Shai, its irrevelant. He still had that amount to win titles. MJ never lost a series with HCA. No other top 10 player all time can say that.

MJ was eliminated 7 times in the playoffs. Russell only lost once in the playoffs when he wasn't injured. And he lost to the team that set the record for wins in a season and had a guy named Wilt on it.

MJ also missed the playoffs twice. Russell never did.

Russell's college career is much more impressive winning two NCAA title and becoming the first team to go undefeated on the way to a ring. Russell was a much better leader and coach too.

There's a reason no one else comes close to 11 rings.

Russell joined a team with the league mvp and ROY who won it over him. It would be like Jordan joining the Celtics in 1985 with Bird and DJ.

Those Celtics had not won a single championship until Bill arrived. Not one! They were so loaded that they went 10-18 when Russell did not play.

You're going to force me to compare and you'll see that MJ looks like a bum next to Russell, but so does everyone else. The bums rightfully deserve to fight over 2nd place. But they're not even in the same league with Russell.

- I'm taking the guy who does not need HCA - 3 rings without HCA - over the guy who never won a single ring without HCA.
- I'm taking the guy who took the lowest seed ever (#4) to a ring over the guy who never won it all without have the #1 seed.
- I'm taking the guy with the 8-peat over the guy with the 3-peat. I'm taking the guy who failed to win a title twice (once if you factor in health) over the guy who failed to win a title for 9 years.
- I'm taking the guy with back-to-back NCAA championships as the leader, including the first team to go undefeated on the way to a championship, over a guy who won just once as the #3 guy on a loaded college team.
- I'm taking the guy who went 22-0 in elimination games. 10-0 in game 7s and 1-0 in a deciding game 5s in the NBA. Never lost in the NCAA tournament. Never lost in the Olympics.
- I'm taking the guy who didn't care about stats over the guy who checks in with the scorer's table to see what he needs for a triple-double or 30-point game.
- I'm taking the guy who coached his team to 2 rings while also playing over a guy who thought coaching involved simply giving him the ball.
- I'm taking the guy who was beloved by his teammates that they were willing to give it all for the team over the guy who ball hogged and crapped on his teammates.
I'm taking the born leader over the diva.

Again, it's not a knock on MJ that he looks like a bum next to Russell. I'm not saying MJ's a bum but when someone tries to put him alongside Russell, he sure begins to look like one.

My advice is to avoid comparisons between MJ and Bill because that will just make MJ look like a scrub.

A helpful way to avoid that is to remember this saying that my granpappy passed on to me:

Spoiler:

There is only one GOAT and it's the BILLY GOAT

[pepe1991]

Russell's 11 championships sounds way better than actually is, in context of modern era and how people view "nba championships" today.

For start, he played in "league" of 8 teams. Literally, it's size smaller of two (former) NBA Divisions.
For example 1958-1959 season. Boston played their 3 division rivals- 12 times each (36 games total) + 9 times against other division ( =36 games).
Basically, entire "league" in that season had 2 teams with winning record. Boston and St.Luis Hawks.

And now most hilarious thing. Playoffs. For start how many people know how playoffs worked? Boston, as conference winner, skipped first round. "Conference semi finals" was played between 2# & 3# team. On other side of a bracket 33-39 team met 28-44 team played winner two games for conference finals. Only 2 teams didn't make playoffs.

And than they played "Conference finals" , but at least those last two series were played on 4 wins.

But also keep in mind that league was marginally professional. Bill's teammate, Bill Sharman, worked "real" job in offseason, as coach in camps. And we don't talk here about some end of a bench bum, but 8 times all star, Hall of Fame player, all nba first team member, 4 times title winner etc.

And Bill Sharman wasn't only player who actually worked real job. Vast majority of players did.

League continued this "competition" that was less developed than majority of current minor leagues for 5-9 dads for almost entire length of his nba career. Traveling was with commercial jets, all closer games with bus, often with personal cars. Russell himself called traveling "barnstorming tours".

Matter of fact league didn't have expansion ( from 8 to still silly small 10 ) teams until 1967. By that point, Bill already won 9 titles

First time NBA even looked remotely similar to normal League was in 1968-69. When league expended to 14 teams. That is also last time he won a title.
But practice of division winner not playing first round, being by default in "conference finals" continued until 1967.
Keep in mind that in 1967 ABA was formed as direct competition, with original 11 teams, with bracket way more similar to current NBA than NBA from that era.
IN many ways ABA was ahead of NBA. It was faster paced, people could actually dunk ( tnx Dr. J ) but also they started league with 3 point line. NBA didn't have one until freaking 1979.

It's also worth pointing out that basketball as sport, wasn't even popular , nor NBA as a league was all that important to Americans. Or non Americans. That's why footages of that era are so rare. Nobody cared. Or watched. Up until late in 60s all star game wasn't even on national tv.

Overall yea, you can talk about Russell in context of GOAT but in same time he played almost different sport than guys like MJ, Hakeem or Lebron. His paths to championship often led through 2 series, his team record was established on sample of never ending cycle of playing same 7 teams.
Best illustration of "11 championships" is fact that he won 107 playoff games to win 11 titles.
In current state of a league, Draymoond Green won 112 for 4 titles.

Russell's NBA was more of amateurish cup than actual league for majority of his career. It's like when people romanticize football ( soccer) from 1960s. What they won't tell you that teams used "break his leg " as actual strategy, as red card didn't exist until 1970 and substitutions weren't allowed until 1965. So you go send 11 morons on pitch to fight and bleed. Pure sport right there.