2013-14 MVP Discussion Thread Pt III

lethalizer · Post #721 » by **lethalizer** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:40 am

As an OKC fan, but also a fan of the "basketball sport", I love that LeBron is breaking this "superstars should always take the last shot" myth.

A good shot in the last possession of a game is always the open shot. Even Durant, who is a better jumpshooter than LeBron, would have probably passed it to Ibaka/Westbrook in that situation, and that is the LBJ effect.

Prior to these LeBron passes, the teams would draw up more isolated plays to their superstars at the end of games. Now, intelligent superstars, also with the help of analytics, make the better plays in those situations.

I'm not saying all this is LeBron's doing, but he certainly has a big role.

That was a great play the Heat drew up. Using LeBron as a ball-handling decoy to set up a wide open Bosh. He just missed. It happens.

Post #722 » by **kingkirk** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:37 am

I will tell you how stupid the 'he is a superstar why did he pass' logic is.

2 of the biggest shots made in Bulls history came from jumpers that were drawn from penetration and the attention going to Jordan.

In 93, he hit up Horace on the drive, who dishes back out to Pax for the 3. Championship.

In 97, Jordan is doubled, doesn't force it and finds Kerr for a massive jumper in Game 6.

If a superstar defers whilst having a better look and outs his teammate under pressure, then that is when you rip into them.

If they make the correct basketball player and hit the open man and that guy misses? Tough break. You made the right play but sometimes **** happens.

GreenBloodedC · Post #723 » by **GreenBloodedC** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:31 pm

KingCuban wrote:I'm in my mid 20s so maybe i am getting older and more mature, so perhaps my 'hate' and the extremes i had for him have cooled, but there is no way that Lebron made the wrong play tonight at the end.

He hit the open man, a man who had just hit a 3 to get them back within 1 point. He opted for the higher percentage play of taking a fade away 30 footer with 2 guys on him.

The Heat lost, big deal. Lebron was great in that game.

I agree 100%. That was the best possible shot. Bosh is a good shooter and he was wide open. Cannot get any better than that.

And if Bosh made it, everyone would probably credit Lebron for making that play.

MisterHibachi · Post #724 » by **MisterHibachi** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:47 pm

KingCuban wrote:I'm in my mid 20s so maybe i am getting older and more mature, so perhaps my 'hate' and the extremes i had for him have cooled, but there is no way that Lebron made the wrong play tonight at the end.

He hit the open man, a man who had just hit a 3 to get them back within 1 point. He opted for the higher percentage play of taking a fade away 30 footer with 2 guys on him.

The Heat lost, big deal. Lebron was great in that game.

The decision wasn't even in LeBron's hands. The play call was horrible because there was only one option: Bosh. LeBron got the ball with his back to the basket 30 feet from the basket. Spo didn't even put him in a position to shoot the ball. I would've prefer a similar play but LeBron coming around a screen from the other side into the wing instead of curling to the middle as the play actually was (if that makes sense). That way, LeBron could've pulled up for a three going left like he likes to do (he made a couple threes like this in the game too) or passed to Bosh. That's two options there instead of the single one that Spo drew up.

Hans Embiid · Post #725 » by **Hans Embiid** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:57 pm

1 Durant
2 LBJ
3 Noah
4 Griffin
5 Harden

Luca Brasi · Post #726 » by **Luca Brasi** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:36 pm

LeBron made the right play.
KD still has the MVP locked up.
/end discussion.

Post #727 » by **pacers33granger** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:40 pm

Lebron made the right play, but Spo made the wrong call. Spo's become a great coach but he still seems to have issues drawing up plays. I'm sure you could have drawn up something better than a long jumpshot from your center when you're only down 1.

barborous · Post #728 » by **barborous** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:06 pm

Bosh is a great shooter and that was a good look. Nothing wrong with either LeBron's pass or Spo's play.

Post #729 » by **pacers33granger** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:53 pm

barborous wrote:Bosh is a great shooter and that was a good look. Nothing wrong with either LeBron's pass or Spo's play.

How is a long contested 2 a good look when you're down 1 and have 2 seconds on the clock? Bosh can certainly hit the shot, but there was enough time to get it to the rim, it's not like it was a catch and shoot situation.

Pure_Basketball · Post #730 » by **Pure_Basketball** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:59 am

The Slim Reaper has the MVP sewn up, and he certainly deserves it he's played out of his skin. Still not the best player in the NBA though.

QPR · Post #731 » by **QPR** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:56 am

I think he is currently.

Playoffs are a different beast though. Does he need to win it all to be considered the best or just outperform LeBron?

Post #732 » by **PaulieWal** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:15 am

QPR wrote:I think he is currently.

Playoffs are a different beast though. Does he need to win it all to be considered the best or just outperform LeBron?

He doesn't need to win it all this year. The West is insanely loaded this year. I don't see OKC getting upset in the first round but they have to go through 3 good teams to get to the Finals.

He doesn't need to win a ring to be considered the best in the game. He just has to outperform LeBron in the playoffs to be considered the best player in the game. Right now LeBron has the 3peat fatigue pass but in the playoffs LeBron better play up to his averages along with his defensive intensity (I think he will). I am very excited for these playoffs. I really can't wait for them to start. They start on the April 19th. Can't get here fast enough.

On a separate note I really love the first couple of weeks of the playoffs where there are multiple games everyday as we start with 8 1st round match-ups. Especially when you consider the 1st round madness in the West, it's going to be a lot of great basketball.

Post #733 » by **kingkirk** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:02 am

I'd like to see Durant at this level for more than 70 games before i go crowning him the best in the game over Lebron.

I know i've been vocal on this, but i think it's a fairly logical position to form.

I think it's similar to when Rose was the league MVP, and many had him as the best PG in the game. I'm obviously a Bulls fan, and i love Rose, but CP3 was still the best PG in the league.

Derrick had the better season, but if you're going to dethrone someone from the top, give me more than 1 season of work.

In saying that, KD has been incredible this season, and i am glad to see him win. If i'm starting a franchise with any player in this league, it's Durant.

Obviously because he is so damn good, but the fact that he is incredible off the ball and can shoot it and end a possession without dominating the ball, that is huge when it comes to the total construction of your roster.

It allows to you to have more on ball creators, and it was the reason why Westbrook, Harden & Durant was able to work.

QPR · Post #734 » by **QPR** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:05 pm

I guess it depends on how you define best player. I'm talking about in this moment and time, and hence not taking into account the last 3-4 years. Others can define it differently. I've never really liked the theory that the longer someone is at the top, the longer it takes to "dethrone" him. Hell let's be honest, LeBron's legacy is the only reason why this MVP race has even been considered close.

No doubt LeBron was the best player last season, and the season before, and over the last five years, and in the last playoffs etc.

But as of right now, I think KD is the best in the league. And that could very much change over the next two months.

deneem4 · Post #735 » by **deneem4** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:13 pm

Lebron was deemed better than Kobe before coming to miami...at the same period of time wade was pretty much in the argument too...so picking best player don't depend on the amount of rings...cause in 2011 everyone was saying rings didn't matter when It came to lebron....durant could've been scoring champ for 5 yrs had he not let anthony get it last yr, and yes I mean let...considering he's 25, that's an amazing feat...The last scoring champ was Dwayne wade and looking at wade now that's a lot to be saying...
i believe durant always had mvp capabilities...His only problem is westbrook...If durant would've had no harden and westbrook through the last 7yrs...i think okc would still be contenders, i also think he wouldve had a mvp already, yes I think durant is that good even in the west..we had 7 years of do it all lebron...and a play off series last yr/1 month of this yr of do it all durant...In the playoffs I don't think he was use to not having westbrook...westbrook never really missed a game...but last month he was ready...and the numbers in that stretch was reminisce of jordan offensively...
Kevin durant is the best player in the league right now...what rose did vs what durant is doing is 2 different type of dominance...rose lead a good team...durant is carrying one in the brutal west...so saying he had 1 good season like he didnt have 50,40,90 one last yr(yes that matters) or saying hes not capable of continuing to dominate doesn't make sense, it's like the heat in 2010, when wade and Lebron could barely play on the floor together....except he has to deal with it for the last 6 seasons with westbrook...is westbrook Makin durant worse...no, but is he holding him back from being a better all around player...yes...durant isn't second to lebron anymore he's only 25 and he's going to get better.

JVL · Post #736 » by **JVL** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:28 pm

One thing I'm contemplating:

I read a lot of "Durant is only 25, he's going to get a lot better!". Is he? Is that a fact that every player improves his game as he gets older? Is it impossible to think that a player might peak at 25?

The reason I'm wondering is simple: if Durant is still going to get better than this over the course of the next 5-10 years, he's without a single doubt the greatest player who ever played this game by a landslide. His 2013-2014 season is already being compared to Top 5-10 players. If this is only a step along the way for KD, he must end at the absolute top in terms of player skill and capability, not necessarily overall when hardware is taken into the equation.

Personally, I believe his astounding 13-14 season is fairly close to his maximum potential. I just can't envision a player getting a lot better than this over the course of multiple years. But Durant may prove me wrong, and I'll at least be happy to watch greatness unfold.

Post #737 » by **bondom34** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:48 pm

JVL wrote:One thing I'm contemplating:

I read a lot of "Durant is only 25, he's going to get a lot better!". Is he? Is that a fact that every player improves his game as he gets older? Is it impossible to think that a player might peak at 25?

The reason I'm wondering is simple: if Durant is still going to get better than this over the course of the next 5-10 years, he's without a single doubt the greatest player who ever played this game by a landslide. His 2013-2014 season is already being compared to Top 5-10 players. If this is only a step along the way for KD, he must end at the absolute top in terms of player skill and capability, not necessarily overall when hardware is taken into the equation.

Personally, I believe his astounding 13-14 season is fairly close to his maximum potential. I just can't envision a player getting a lot better than this over the course of multiple years. But Durant may prove me wrong, and I'll at least be happy to watch greatness unfold.

I think there's a difference in improvement statistically vs. real impact on the games as well. To say he's going to keep improving like this in the box score is tough, as he's gonna have to be putting up 35 a game on efficiency that hasn't been seen before. He can still improve a bit as a defender, and possibly in certain areas offensively (post ups and ball handling may show slight improvement, though he's very good at both already). Stats wise, a lot of guys don't "improve" after 25 (Kobe's best was right around that age, maybe slightly older, Lebron the same, as others and they remained approximately at the same production box score wise), but there's a difference between putting up better numbers and real on court improvement.

JVL · Post #738 » by **JVL** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:06 pm

Correct, I should have clarified I was talking about raw stat output.

QPR · Post #739 » by **QPR** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:23 pm

I think MJ and LeBron are classic examples to be honest - their best statistical years came in their mid 20s, but they were much more refined as players in their late 20s and thus had the team success. I expect it will be no different with Durant and it's simply because by the time he hits 28, he'll have played a lot of basketball and a lot of playoff basketball.

That said, I have no issues calling him the best player in the world right now because I believe he is, and he'll show that in the playoffs. But others will disagree and that's fine, and he certainly doesn't have the runs on the board that LeBron does.

All that being said, if Durant was to somehow improve statistically, he would be getting into historical territory. 32/8/6 on 51/40/88 shooting is utterly phenomenal whatever way you look at it. Has he even had a slump this year? The fact he's still doing it 70 games in given the workload he has shouldered is incredible. You'd expect any player to have a shooting slump at some point, but he still comes out and hits those clips almost every single night.

JVL · Post #740 » by **JVL** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:50 pm

If he ever had a slump (which he hasn't) it would be early January when he averaged 34.42/5.57/6/1.7/0.8 with 2.2 TOV/G shooting at 47,4/28,2/89,88 over the course of the first 7 games, where they lost 4.

Short: no, he didn't have a slump.

Who will be the 2013-14 MVP?