China cancels NBA stuff / Silver issues statement (pg1) /Ongoing discussion...

[clyde21]

So we're back to prioritizing who's lives should be considered first?

Tell me Clyde, when do I get to worry about the innocent people in HK? Where are they on the list?

Westerners have no place to talk about Hong Kong's freedom and Human Rights while they're literally sponsoring genocide and ethnic cleansing in Yemen, Palestine, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, and Sudan

ya'll don't have a leg to to stand on, it's funny how Hong Kong has been front page news...but where the **** are 90 thousand Yemeni children that have starved to death becaue of the US-Saudi backed slaughter of Yemenis huh?

or maybe ya'll just pick and choose what/who you care about huh

You have no clue about me. What my leanings are, what I talk about. That I actively vote against the parties in Canada that have supported deals with the Saudis over weapons.

so before you cast judgment on me and where my concerns are, perhaps you should actually know where I am.

i am not talking about you specifically, I'm talking about the mainstream narratives, whether it be in the news or the NBA or whatever...everyone's talking about HK deserves freedom and human rights while it PALES in comparison to what is happening in places that everyone is seemingly ignoring and radio silent on.

this selective outrage depending on who the victim is is disgusting.

[oaktownwarriors87]

maybe you should worry about the people the US is slaughtering across the Middle East first

So we're back to prioritizing who's lives should be considered first?

Tell me Clyde, when do I get to worry about the innocent people in HK? Where are they on the list?

Westerners have no place to talk about Hong Kong's freedom and Human Rights while they're literally sponsoring genocide and ethnic cleansing in Yemen, Palestine, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, and Sudan

ya'll don't have a leg to to stand on, it's funny how Hong Kong has been front page news...but where the **** is the front page news on the 90 thousand Yemeni children that have starved to death because of the US-Saudi backed slaughter of Yemenis huh?

or maybe ya'll just pick and choose what/who you care about, at least be honest and let's call it a day.

It's all **** up. We should all be able to criticize any government.

[clyde21]

So we're back to prioritizing who's lives should be considered first?

Tell me Clyde, when do I get to worry about the innocent people in HK? Where are they on the list?

Westerners have no place to talk about Hong Kong's freedom and Human Rights while they're literally sponsoring genocide and ethnic cleansing in Yemen, Palestine, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, and Sudan

ya'll don't have a leg to to stand on, it's funny how Hong Kong has been front page news...but where the **** is the front page news on the 90 thousand Yemeni children that have starved to death because of the US-Saudi backed slaughter of Yemenis huh?

or maybe ya'll just pick and choose what/who you care about, at least be honest and let's call it a day.

It's all **** up. We should all be able to criticize any government except Israel.

FIFY

[Yoshun]

maybe you should worry about the people the US is slaughtering across the Middle East first

Why not both?

because it's coming from a hypocritical viewpoint, America talking about 'freedom' and 'democracy' while slaughtering and displacing millions across the Middle East and sponsoring most of the world's oppressive regimes

Okay, so I'll just write a letter to Trump and tell him to stop that stuff so my opinion can be valid on RealGM. I'm sure he and the rest of the government will jump right on that.

[sikma42]

So we're back to prioritizing who's lives should be considered first?

Tell me Clyde, when do I get to worry about the innocent people in HK? Where are they on the list?

Westerners have no place to talk about Hong Kong's freedom and Human Rights while they're literally sponsoring genocide and ethnic cleansing in Yemen, Palestine, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, and Sudan

ya'll don't have a leg to to stand on, it's funny how Hong Kong has been front page news...but where the **** is the front page news on the 90 thousand Yemeni children that have starved to death because of the US-Saudi backed slaughter of Yemenis huh?

or maybe ya'll just pick and choose what/who you care about, at least be honest and let's call it a day.

It's all **** up. We should all be able to criticize any government.

You can criticize any government. Doesnt mean there will not be consequences. 1st Amendment only protects agains state action (United States)...

I think many Americans here are just getting a whiff of how powerful China is in relation to US companies. Thats just the reality of the situation.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[clyde21]

Why not both?

because it's coming from a hypocritical viewpoint, America talking about 'freedom' and 'democracy' while slaughtering and displacing millions across the Middle East and sponsoring most of the world's oppressive regimes

Okay, so I'll just write a letter to Trump and tell him to stop that stuff so my opinion can be valid on RealGM. I'm sure he and the rest of the government will jump right on that.

why weren't you asking the NBA to pull out of China before the HK protests?

[MotownMadness]

trans lives are not at risk if we don't allow men to walk into girls bathrooms

to compare that issue to the outright genocide in Xinjiang is both laughable and disgusting at the same time

almost as comical as the NBA pandering to this nonsense while simultaneously getting in bed with China and UAE and Israel and numerous other historically genocidal regimes on the planet.

If you are naive enough to believe the bathroom issue isn't a deeper cause rooted in discrimination, abuse and high suicide rates than I'm not sure what to say.

It's an issue but I feel like this is a bit of an oversimplification of what the issue is. There are legitimate ramifications that the bathroom issue has for women's safety. In the world today you have predators like Jessiva Yaniv masquerading as women who are allowed to exist (anyone unfamiliar feel free to google). Would anyone be okay with an individual like that or the trans woman that destroyed property and threatened to fight an employee at game stop entering a bathroom with their sister/wife/mother? I wouldn't.

I feel like it's pretty strange/out of place to compare the bathroom issue with the human rights atrocities happening in china.

It definitely wasnt very well thought out thats for sure when it comes to safety. Any damn pervert could just say they recognize as a women today.

[JeepCSC]

US Provides Military Assistance to 73 Percent of World’s Dictatorships

https://truthout.org/articles/us-provides-military-assistance-to-73-percent-of-world-s-dictatorships/

but keep pretending we give a **** about Hong Kong's 'freedom'

The FDR Somoza quote seems fitting here.

The world is complicated. As we try to make our way through the moral quicksand that is the expediency of foreign policy, there are certain things we would do well to understand. Dictatorships are never the good guys. China isn’t fighting fair and their ideal world would be one with no political thought that doesn’t mirror the Party’s. We may do business with them but we should be under no delusions, that Hong Kong is not the at-fault party here and if they were subsumed by China, the world would be a lesser place.

[MotownMadness]

Westerners have no place to talk about Hong Kong's freedom and Human Rights while they're literally sponsoring genocide and ethnic cleansing in Yemen, Palestine, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, and Sudan

ya'll don't have a leg to to stand on, it's funny how Hong Kong has been front page news...but where the **** are 90 thousand Yemeni children that have starved to death becaue of the US-Saudi backed slaughter of Yemenis huh?

or maybe ya'll just pick and choose what/who you care about huh

You have no clue about me. What my leanings are, what I talk about. That I actively vote against the parties in Canada that have supported deals with the Saudis over weapons.

so before you cast judgment on me and where my concerns are, perhaps you should actually know where I am.

i am not talking about you specifically, I'm talking about the mainstream narratives, whether it be in the news or the NBA or whatever...everyone's talking about HK deserves freedom and human rights while it PALES in comparison to what is happening in places that everyone is seemingly ignoring and radio silent on.

this selective outrage depending on who the victim is is disgusting.

Honestly most people dont know until it hits mainstream media and all they talk about is Trump. This one is just getting big spotlight at the moment and actually involves the NBA.

[TheDoors24]

But the consequences cannot be jail time, like China, or government civil action, like Singapore.

of course but here in the consequences here is what's currently happening to the NBA. Huge financial loses.

Freedom is NOT free. Freedom for a lot of countries, US included, was paid for by the life of many dead soldiers.

I think cash payment is not high at all.

are you disagreeing with me or agreeing? lol. I'm so off today.

[MemphisX]

All I know is these fake woke NBA beat writers better not try and make this season about China and human rights.

[ropjhk]

Again, what does this have to do with CHINA? Just because other countries are doing it and we aren't talking about those countries right now, what does that matter?

Because it makes us look like hypocrites. Also it puts into light the idea that free speech is not as universally valued as we like to think. Even in Western countries free speech is under attack. Hard to get on that free speech high horse and criticize other countries when open intellectual discussion is attacked and suppressed right here at home.

Only a hypocrite if you agree with what's happening. If you vote for governments that have deals with these countries.

Our journalists being imprisoned, disappearing? There are degrees of what's happening.

You don't ignore worse cases just because you have some things to clean up.

I agree that criticisms of being a hypocrite wouldn't really apply to you personally if you practice what you preach and hold everyone to the same standards. However, even if you are personally a free speech advocate through and through how can you be sure that would be the best policy for everyone else? Free speech is not one of those rights that are natural to the foundation and development of a society. For most of history human development wasn't founded on the principles of free speech. When survival or rapid development are the main goals of a society free speech can be (but not necessarily will be) an impediment to those goals.

I don't know if China would be better served with free speech or not. I know a relative fair bit about China, but I don't live there. I know enough to know that just like most other societies, its social problems are complex. I know enough to know that most Western people's comments about their society are made from a place of ignorance and arrogance. I also know enough from history that dismissive attitudes of other peoples societies is what allowed things like the US invading Vietnam slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese in the name of freedom against communism when the Vietnamese were just simply trying to establish their own independence. Vietnam was a situation the American people didn't understand. Although I don't think HK is under any threat of US invasion, I also think most Americans don't understand the Chinese mindset.

Now some final clarifications on my position not directly related to my response:
- I believe that Canada has a right to protest the arrest of Canadian citizens in China. I also think Canada started the feud by arresting Meng Wanzhou (a whole other discussion), but that doesn't justify China's actions which are heavy handed to say the least.
- I believe that Daryl Morey has the right to express his opinion, but that his opinion should offend the Chinese government is not surprising. I think the response from Adam Silver was appropriate in that it doesn't condemn or criticize the Chinese while also stating that the NBA will not restrict the freedom of speech of its players and coaches.
- I believe that the Chinese have the right to boycott the NBA over Morey's comments. I think it's an overreaction and that they shouldn't be surprised that most Westerners feel it's a ridiculous thing to do.
- As a non interventionist I don't believe it's useful to be overly critical of the Chinese government. Let them do their thing. Let the Chinese people determine their own destiny. They have no wishes to impose their political philosophies on other nations (though they are very critical of the criticism they receive from others).

[clyde21]

You have no clue about me. What my leanings are, what I talk about. That I actively vote against the parties in Canada that have supported deals with the Saudis over weapons.

so before you cast judgment on me and where my concerns are, perhaps you should actually know where I am.

i am not talking about you specifically, I'm talking about the mainstream narratives, whether it be in the news or the NBA or whatever...everyone's talking about HK deserves freedom and human rights while it PALES in comparison to what is happening in places that everyone is seemingly ignoring and radio silent on.

this selective outrage depending on who the victim is is disgusting.

Honestly most people dont know until it hits mainstream media and all they talk about is Trump. This one is just getting big spotlight at the moment and actually involves the NBA.

it's getting mainstream play because it follows the mainstream narrative really

i mean, CNN/Fox literally made a bigger fuss of 6 juul pod deaths than Rohingya, Xinjiang, Palestine and Yemen combined.

[clyde21]

Our journalists being imprisoned, disappearing? There are degrees of what's happening.

uhh...yes? look at what we did to Julian Assange, Chelsea Manning and Eric Snowden

[xdrta+]

trans lives are not at risk if we don't allow men to walk into girls bathrooms

to compare that issue to the outright genocide in Xinjiang is both laughable and disgusting at the same time

almost as comical as the NBA pandering to this nonsense while simultaneously getting in bed with China and UAE and Israel and numerous other historically genocidal regimes on the planet.

If you are naive enough to believe the bathroom issue isn't a deeper cause rooted in discrimination, abuse and high suicide rates than I'm not sure what to say.

You are comparing allowing men to go into womens bathrooms to a literal holocaust in Xinjiang, it's laughable that you actually think this somehow makes you virtuous of some kind...

don't @ me please, thanks.

As usual, if not ranting about your pet peeves, you're distorting the issue and displaying your ignorance. No surprise there.

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

Then continue on you'll get no defense from me. This is one of those issues where no side looks good. Prior to your edit I was about to go in though because you might need to learn the history of Hong Kong if you want to know why a defense of Hong Kong is a defense of imperialism.

Also I'm not defending China they're reaching into Africa now as we speak to do the same thing European powers have been doing for hundreds of years.

But you can defend the citizens of HK without defending the political and historical existence of HK. Regardless of how it came into being, you have people whose lives are at risk.

To do so would be to separate the citizens of HK from citizens of China, the country they're citizens of. At that point you're defending the political and historical existence of HK as an entity separate from China.

The problem is even if we take your premise, "Imperialism is bad and all other arguments must flow from this," the conclusion you draw is not compatible with your starting premise.

Rule: Imperialism is bad and all other arguments must flow from this
Assumption #1: Territorial borders must revert to pre-Imperialist lines (I assume we're just ignoring that at some point, Imperialism had to occur to create these giant territories in the first place, it seems arbitrary to say anything pre-Qing is off limits, but whatever, pre-Western Imperialism borders by your rules)
Assumption #2: Any government aided by Imperialist countries is illegitimate

We then can only conclude
1. Hong Kong belongs to "China"
2. The last government unaided by Imperialists in its establishment as government of China is the KMT
3. The KMT were violently overthrown by the CPC who were aided by Imperialist interests (Soviets)

We can only conclude that Hong Kong, and China, rightfully belong to the government of Taiwan.

And not that it matters, since we don't actually care what the people actually living in Hong Kong think, but I bet they'd vote to join Taiwan in a heartbeat over PRC.

[clyde21]

If you are naive enough to believe the bathroom issue isn't a deeper cause rooted in discrimination, abuse and high suicide rates than I'm not sure what to say.

You are comparing allowing men to go into womens bathrooms to a literal holocaust in Xinjiang, it's laughable that you actually think this somehow makes you virtuous of some kind...

don't @ me please, thanks.

As usual, if not ranting about your pet peeves, you're distorting the issue and displaying your ignorance. No surprise there.

speaking of ignorance, save us your drive by one liners that add nothing to the discussion.

[JeepCSC]

Freedom of speech is not a cornerstone to every society, merely a free one.

[xdrta+]

You are comparing allowing men to go into womens bathrooms to a literal holocaust in Xinjiang, it's laughable that you actually think this somehow makes you virtuous of some kind...

don't @ me please, thanks.

As usual, if not ranting about your pet peeves, you're distorting the issue and displaying your ignorance. No surprise there.

speaking of ignorance, save us your drive by one liners that add nothing to the discussion.

You think you have added to the discussion with your rants? You are more ignorant than first appeared.

[oaktownwarriors87]

You can criticize any government. Doesnt mean there will not be consequences.

Saying your going to murder someone or blow up a building shouldn't be covered by free speech.

Saying the President looks like Pooh Bear or that someone is abusing their power should.