ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

[ElectricMayhem]

I'm only on Episode 6, so I'm behind everyone, but I just watched the Charles Smith scene. It makes me realize I misremembered the turn of events. My recollection was that Charles Smith had bad touch - that he got multiple shots up from really close range but none of them went in. Upon watching it again, I realized that it wasn't Charles Smith's fault at all. It was just incredible defense. It's not that they didn't let him get a clean look, they simply didn't let him get a shot up. I'm sorry Charles Smith for my misremembering and subsequent blaming of you. That wasn't on you at at all. Memory is a funny thing.

[mccluskey]

The ending of Episode 7 is the most revealing segment in the documentary, when they ask him if he thinks his intensity has come at a price of being a nice guy.

The man clearly explains why he is how he is, and he appears to be conscious that the same traits that propelled him to achieve the highest level anybody has achieved in basketball, also had a price. The other side of the coin, the "I have a competition problem", the thing that make him choke up at the end of the episode thinking he might not have been always a nice person. You can tell it bothers him.

But he couldn't help it or switch it off.

Anyway the guy is all heart and fire. He really couldn't have made it in other way. In the end we are who we are.

whether you're a fan or not you have to respect that. He knows himself and how people see him and he doesn't apologize for it or make excuses - he doesn't need people to like him, he just is who he is. That confidence in himself and ownership of his personality is a big part of what makes him the GOAT.

[jc23]

Couple of takeaways from episode 7:

-Mj's plan to retire was in motion well before that summer of 93'

-His fathers death just solidified the decision

-I thought he was terrible at baseball from beginning to end but it seems he had a real chance at making the big leagues if he kept at it

-His trainer indicating that training for baseball would be detrimental to his basketball abilities is something i have also believed. Age always plays a factor but his baseball stint took a little something extra away physically.

-Interesting that part of his drive for a 3peat was to separate himself from Larry and Magic

-That 94 Chicago team was really good and Jerry should have gotten some credit for it. curious what the cap was like and if MJ had stayed if they still could have brought in Kerr, Toni, wennington and peter myers.

-probably not but im convinced MJ past up on a 4 peat,

-Pippen benefited so much more from MJ then vice versa. Just in terms of mentorship and taking the burden of being the best player off his shoulders. Pip was key to every title but i dont think he becomes the player he became had he never been traded to Chicago.

-I really wanted to see Pip's reaction after that Kukoc make

[Greatness]

My biggest takeaway from the series so far is Pippen was a huge diva and not very likable.

[LKN]

The ending of Episode 7 is the most revealing segment in the documentary, when they ask him if he thinks his intensity has come at a price of being a nice guy.

The man clearly explains why he is how he is, and he appears to be conscious that the same traits that propelled him to achieve the highest level anybody has achieved in basketball, also had a price. The other side of the coin, the "I have a competition problem", the thing that make him choke up at the end of the episode thinking he might not have been always a nice person. You can tell it bothers him.

But he couldn't help it or switch it off.

Anyway the guy is all heart and fire. He really couldn't have made it in other way. In the end we are who we are.

whether you're a fan or not you have to respect that. He knows himself and how people see him and he doesn't apologize for it or make excuses - he doesn't need people to like him, he just is who he is. That confidence in himself and ownership of his personality is a big part of what makes him the GOAT.

The other interesting thing is that it's pretty clear to me that many of his past team mates understand that MJ's at times harsh leadership did make them all better and was a big part of why they won. However it also came with a price; they all seem to respect him, but quite a few of them aren't going to be meeting up with MJ for dinner and drinks.

[Ree4erMadness]

You can be a hard-nosed, tough leader without belittling and emasculating people.

I feel you but can you be the GOAT?
And by many accounts, he was a cool dude off the court, but on the court he was a complete jerk.

[LKN]

You can be a hard-nosed, tough leader without belittling and emasculating people.

I feel you but can you be the GOAT?
And by many accounts, he was a cool dude off the court, but on the court he was a complete jerk.

I really need to read some books on Bill Russell. He's the only other guy who ever led a team with the same kind of dominance. I have read a little, and it sounds like he was kind of crazy too.

[Sprewell4Three]

Couple of takeaways from episode 7:

-Mj's plan to retire was in motion well before that summer of 93'

-His fathers death just solidified the decision

-I thought he was terrible at baseball from beginning to end but it seems he had a real chance at making the big leagues if he kept at it

-His trainer indicating that training for baseball would be detrimental to his basketball abilities is something i have also believed. Age always plays a factor but his baseball stint took a little something extra away physically.

-Interesting that part of his drive for a 3peat was to separate himself from Larry and Magic

-That 94 Chicago team was really good and Jerry should have gotten some credit for it. curious what the cap was like and if MJ had stayed if they still could have brought in Kerr, Toni, wennington and peter myers.

-probably not but im convinced MJ past up on a 4 peat,

-Pippen benefited so much more from MJ then vice versa. Just in terms of mentorship and taking the burden of being the best player off his shoulders. Pip was key to every title but i dont think he becomes the player he became had he never been traded to Chicago.

-I really wanted to see Pip's reaction after that Kukoc make

People say MJ is selfish, but so far we've seen two instances were Pippen was selfish. But according to Jordan haters, if it wasn't for Pippen, Jordan wouldn't have won any championships. Just the fact that Pippen quit on his team in game 3 just proves to you he wouldn't be able to carry the Bulls to 6 championships.

[BodieB]

You can be a hard-nosed, tough leader without belittling and emasculating people.

I feel you but can you be the GOAT?
And by many accounts, he was a cool dude off the court, but on the court he was a complete jerk.

I don't think the two are directly related. MJ may be the GOAT but there's other legends that are better leaders but winners as well. Not a one thing or the other situation.

[Sprewell4Three]

MJ was trying to prepare his guys to go up against the tough teams in the playoffs. By his 2nd 3peat, he had the right to expect hard work from everyone else because of what he had to go through to build up the Chicago Bulls. And by all reports he was a nice guy off the court, just on the court he demanded excellence.

[InsideInfo]

My biggest take away is that MJ really liked Scott Burrell.

[Sgt Major]

My biggest take away is that MJ really liked Scott Burrell.

Read on Twitter

[InsideInfo]

My biggest take away is that MJ really liked Scott Burrell.

Read on Twitter

I saw that this morning lol. Think I watched it like 10 times in a row.

[carrrnuttt]

MJ was trying to prepare his guys to go up against the tough teams in the playoffs. By his 2nd 3peat, he had the right to expect hard work from everyone else because of what he had to go through to build up the Chicago Bulls. And by all reports he was a nice guy off the court, just on the court he demanded excellence.

More importantly, MJ never asked anyone to do anything he wouldn't do himself.

It was telling that when they were doing windsprints, he was ahead of everyone else, and I believe he was the oldest dude on the court at that time.

[Slim Charlez]

You can be a hard-nosed, tough leader without belittling and emasculating people.

I feel you but can you be the GOAT?
And by many accounts, he was a cool dude off the court, but on the court he was a complete jerk.

I don't think the two are directly related. MJ may be the GOAT but there's other legends that are better leaders but winners as well. Not a one thing or the other situation.

TD almost won almost as many titles as MJ and was the polar opposite. Was he not competitive? Seems to me like people want to make that as an excuse yet it doesn't hold up since by a lot of accounts he was a dick after his playing days as well. Does he not tip in restaurants because he's so competitive?

Seems like the majority of people who laud MJ's personality are for the most part people that never met him ( and Ahmad Rashad).

[mccluskey]

My biggest takeaway from the series so far is Pippen was a huge diva and not very likable.

agreed - over the years Pippen's legacy has grown to the point that he's now a little overrated. While he was a great player in many ways and absolutely integral to the Bulls' championship teams, he was also kind of a mentally soft guy who was never cut out to be the leader of a successful team and who benefitted a lot more from playing with MJ than really gets talked about today.

[GreenBloodedC]

Man. The thing I almost forgot is that Jordan was already considered as the GOAT after his first three-peat.

Then he went on and repeated it again.That's just unparalleled.

[mccluskey]

I feel you but can you be the GOAT?
And by many accounts, he was a cool dude off the court, but on the court he was a complete jerk.

I don't think the two are directly related. MJ may be the GOAT but there's other legends that are better leaders but winners as well. Not a one thing or the other situation.

TD almost won almost as many titles as MJ and was the polar opposite. Was he not competitive? Seems to me like people want to make that as an excuse yet it doesn't hold up since by a lot of accounts he was a dick after his playing days as well. Does he not tip in restaurants because he's so competitive?

Seems like the majority of people who laud MJ's personality are for the most part people that never met him ( and Ahmad Rashad).

Duncan was an alltime great player for sure, and I agree with you that no question Jordan was a massive dick to his teammates because of what he saw as his way of motivating and pushing them to be better. Could he have done it a different, kinder, gentler way and still be considered the GOAT? Maybe - maybe not. It's not my leadership style for sure, nor is it the style that I (and probably most other people) would prefer to have in a team leader. But like the man said, that's who he was and that's the method that got him and his teammates to the top of the mountain. And the guys that played with him don't seem to mind ending up with all those rings.

and if I had to stake my life on a player to win a basketball game, I'm taking Jordan over anyone else, exactly because of that insanely competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathy personality. We can dislike the way he did things, but at the end of the day I want him on my team ahead of anyone else in the history of the league.

(also I always heard MJ is a good tipper and treated waiters, bellboys, etc pretty well - Scottie was supposedly the guy that never tipped anybody (No-Tippin' Pippen, etc). But I don't have any first hand knowledge of that so could be wrong.)

[carrrnuttt]

I feel you but can you be the GOAT?
And by many accounts, he was a cool dude off the court, but on the court he was a complete jerk.

I don't think the two are directly related. MJ may be the GOAT but there's other legends that are better leaders but winners as well. Not a one thing or the other situation.

TD almost won almost as many titles as MJ and was the polar opposite. Was he not competitive? Seems to me like people want to make that as an excuse yet it doesn't hold up since by a lot of accounts he was a dick after his playing days as well. Does he not tip in restaurants because he's so competitive?

Seems like the majority of people who laud MJ's personality are for the most part people that never met him ( and Ahmad Rashad).

It's all about balance.

MJ's style worked because Phil's Zen-style helped contrast against it.

TD's style worked because Pop is a killer.

I would argue that Krause had slightly less to do with the Bull's success, because no matter what teammate they gave Jordan, he'd either make them into at least serviceable basketball players, or make them quit.

TD had an excellent front office that pulled in players that suited well with him, and Pop gave them the right roles in the right positions to succeed. So all Duncan had to do was be himself.

[BodieB]

I don't think the two are directly related. MJ may be the GOAT but there's other legends that are better leaders but winners as well. Not a one thing or the other situation.

TD almost won almost as many titles as MJ and was the polar opposite. Was he not competitive? Seems to me like people want to make that as an excuse yet it doesn't hold up since by a lot of accounts he was a dick after his playing days as well. Does he not tip in restaurants because he's so competitive?

Seems like the majority of people who laud MJ's personality are for the most part people that never met him ( and Ahmad Rashad).

Duncan was an alltime great player for sure, and I agree with you that no question Jordan was a massive dick to his teammates because of what he saw as his way of motivating and pushing them to be better. Could he have done it a different, kinder, gentler way and still be considered the GOAT? Maybe - maybe not. It's not my leadership style for sure, nor is it the style that I (and probably most other people) would prefer to have in a team leader. But like the man said, that's who he was and that's the method that got him and his teammates to the top of the mountain. And the guys that played with him don't seem to mind ending up with all those rings.

and if I had to stake my life on a player to win a basketball game, I'm taking Jordan over anyone else, exactly because of that insanely competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathy personality. We can dislike the way he did things, but at the end of the day I want him on my team ahead of anyone else in the history of the league.

(also I always heard MJ is a good tipper and treated waiters, bellboys, etc pretty well - Scottie was supposedly the guy that never tipped anybody (No-Tippin' Pippen, etc). But I don't have any first hand knowledge of that so could be wrong.)

The notion that they won because he was an ass is flawed though. Other teams have gotten to that same mountain top without having leadership that bullied their team.