Shaq traded to Phx; Marion, banks to Miami

[Ballings7]

Yeah Butler is a real nice player, but IMO Marion is easily the best player mentioned at this point.

Butler's surpassed Marion in the last year or so. Butler's become a superior overall player. Marion's more accomplished, but naturally with time and situation difference from Butler.

Now maybe they won't get totally worked over by post players every time they face one and Amare may not be a godawful wreck on defense because he'll be guarding the PFs that undersized Marion was guarding on a nightly basis. Amare may not even foul as much as he has been.

I don't see things improving much.

From what I remember, big men who can play strong inside in general had good, or better than usual games against Phoenix/Amare. Especially with PFs being quicker and a better class of players. It's not like all of a sudden Amare's going to improve noticably on defense. In the way of guarding his man, over-going for blocks, picking up fouls, and not rebounding consistently well. He's respectable there, but not special or an upper class rebounder. All I see changing, is Amare will have less responsibility in guarding the basket - and yes, maybe the good games that players (capable wing-players did consistently as well) have against Phoenix will decrease. But it still won't be by a lot, in the possible decrease. It didn't matter with Amare who he was guarding, he didn't and doesn't play effective defense (aside from blocks), and picks up fouls a lot.

Shaq's a big body, but not the defender and rebounder he used to be, even from recent years. His health isn't reliable. His motivation has been inconsistent in the last handful of years from what I know, and ultimately is questionable at best how it'll be in Phoenix. It will be there intially, but what about over his whole tenure?

That actually helps their height as Diaw is 6-9

Diaw's not 6'9". Brian Skinner is 6'9", Antonio Davis is 6'9", Zach Randolph is 6'9". Diaw's more like 6'6"/6'7", 6'8" maybe at most. Also doesn't help Diaw's not a solid athlete, not a consistent defender, average at best rebounder, not a shotblocker. He's an undersized PF, anyway.

Then you take into account Diaw has been over-differing on offense consistently since 05-06. It's nice he looks to pass, but he over does it. Also was not in good physical shape last year, and couldn't and hasn't been able to adjust to playing with Amare.

Tonight was another example of him looking to pass too much, even with Marion gone, the guy over-passed a bunch of times, and rushed a couple shots. Which took place in the 4th qtr and OTs (one of them anyway). D'Antoni finally took him out after he looked to pass after passing up a shot but then decided to take the shot and rushed it and missed it. Numerous times I've heard ESPN/TNT/Suns announcers getting on him about this.

Oh, and now Shaq is coming in, who will still have a significant offensive role.

With the way Diaw's gone since last season, it's unknown if he'll ever return like his 05-06 form. He's just a completely different player, and has a soft mentality. He was tougher and confident in 05-06. For Phoenix he has to be able to be consistent and more balanced on offense.

[heatwillbeback]

well, I dont think Shaq is done. He will still get you 15 and 7 while opening commanding some doubles and opening up lanes for other players, and will also get 20/10 some games. He will also get the other team in foul trouble and put your team at the line a lot due to the other team being in the penalty

the question is if he could run, and I say not regularly lol, but a fast break with Raja, Amare, and Nash with Shaq trailing shouldn't be bad. And the Suns half court offense has improved with this addition

Shaq still has some left, and with a contending team, I think he will be a good third option who brings different things. Even at his worse, he draws doubles and puts the other team in foul trouble, and that will help the Suns

[tsherkin]

Big men who can play strong inside in general had good, or better than usual games against Phoenix/Amare. Especially with PFs being quicker and a better class of players. It's not like all of a sudden Amare's going to improve noticably on defense. In the way of guarding his man, over-going for blocks, picking up fouls, and not rebounding consistently well. He's respectable there, but not special or an upper class rebounder. All I see changing, is Amare will have less responsibility in guarding the basket - and yes, maybe the good games that players (capable wing-players did all the time as well) have regularily against Phoenix will decrease.

That's absolutely huge if it does happens, at least IMO.

Shaq's a big body, but not the defender and rebounder he used to be, even from recent years. His health isn't reliable. His motivation has been inconsistent in the last handful of years from what I know, and ultimately is questionable at best how it'll be in Phoenix. It will be there intially, but what about over his whole tenure?

I look at it this way; one of the first things you'll notice is a marked increase in the team's offensive rebounding, because Shaq, even this year, is pwning Shawn on the offensive glass. I dunno if it was this thread or not in which I noted the gap but...

Shaq: 3 orpg in 28.5 mpg
Marion: 1.8 orpg in 36.4 mpg

Shaq's doubling Marion's offensive rebound rate, so that's a big plus, since Phoenix is dead-last in the league in ORbR and it's by over 2%, which is huge.

His interior scoring efficiency isn't what it used to be because of his fouls and turnovers but he's still at a TS% of about 58%, which is still ridiculous. And with all the shooters, he's going to cause problems because he still demands the double, even if it's in limited minutes. That's going to help them a lot come playoff time because it'll make it a lot harder for a guy like Tim Duncan to roam and play help D for fear of giving up point-blank shots to a guy who converts nearly 3/5 of the time. That's ALSO significant, because it radically alters the interior dynamic the rest of the team is facing when they drive the ball into the paint against teams with significant shot-blocking 5s.

There are a ton of ways that Shaq will impact this team, even in limited regular season minutes. If he's healthy-ish come the playoffs, Phoenix becomes a lot more dangerous.

[YiYaoYue]

I say shaq and marion are equal on offensive rebounds.. shaq numbers on rebounds are inflated by him missing layups and tipping them back in, because hes such a big body he keeps others from getting near the missed layup and so its easy tip in for him. 3orpg and if they were half tip in from his own missed layups then he only providing 5 rpg on defense... that is horrid compared to marion.

marion was getting long offensive rebounds.. completely different since suns rely a lot on those since they tend to shoot quite a lot of jumpers. If you lose that then it leads to fast breaks against the suns...marion being one of those who actually hustled back on defense, so they have one less defender since Shaq is too lazy and considerably slower than marion to stop easy fastbreak opportunities against the suns. Amare does a good job on those offensive rebounds near the basket which will be the same stuff shaq goes after.

Shaq's main asset is on the offense imho... the only problem is that suns tempo on offense decreases... that could end up hurting them as their defense has a lot of holes still... chris paul going 42 points... yikes... david west had a decent game too against amare (but i give credit that amare played pretty good defense on west)... if you consider tyson chandler and shaq cancelling each other out.

[Baseline Runner]

This forum drastically overrates Shawn Marion. He's a player that relies on athleticism that is on the steep decline. He contributes little to offense now other than fast break points and easy buckets created by the Suns superior offense, and is a weak man defender. His main contribution right now is rebounding which Shaq can match or exceed.

Although this does change the complexity of the team, from fast break to more half court, Shaq will definitely contribute more on both ends of the floor than Marion.

[tsherkin]

I say shaq and marion are equal on offensive rebounds.. shaq numbers on rebounds are inflated by him missing layups and tipping them back in, because hes such a big body he keeps others from getting near the missed layup and so its easy tip in for him. 3orpg and if they were half tip in from his own missed layups then he only providing 5 rpg on defense... that is horrid compared to marion.

For a guy who's "blowing layups," which is occasionally true, he's still shooting 58% from the floor. He's not blowing enough shots to be padding his stats the way you imply.

marion was getting long offensive rebounds.. completely different since suns rely a lot on those since they tend to shoot quite a lot of jumpers. If you lose that then it leads to fast breaks against the suns...

But teams get fastbreaks against the Suns and you can break off of short rebounds anyway because the best way to advance the ball is with a pass; it's the basic principle behind the break. Robert Parish used to bomb passes from the key to halfcourt or farther, it makes no difference where you get the rebound.

You're wrong.

Amare does a good job on those offensive rebounds near the basket which will be the same stuff shaq goes after.

Actually, Amare is only averaging 2.4 orpg in 32.5 mpg, Shaq's still posting an oRbR a third again higher than Amare's.

EDIT:

Also, Shaq and Chandler cancelling eachother other? Chandler has no isolation post game and no jumper, doesn't draw fouls... he impacts the game exclusively as a help defender and rebounder.

[Ballings7]

Well, I still feel the same on Amare.

On Shaq, I realize what impact he'll still have offensively, in the minute range he's going to play. But defensively and rebounding the ball, he's still a different player. Overall he's not regularily effective there anymore, and it not being a solid point in his game. Especially for what the Suns are expecting. I think he'll continue to be limited (still effective, but only so much) and inconsistent as a defender and rebounder.

But the key to everything is Shaq's health which is still not reliable, and asking him to stay relatively healthy, even come playoff time, is something significant to expect. Neither can be put down as a serious possibility either, with Shaq's age, declining game, and being injury prone. Shaq has to be on the court and not playing that hurt, to be up to what he's capable of doing now.

Offensive rebounding will be improved, I agree. But I'm still questionable on how consistent it'll be, mainly because of his health.

[Ballings7]

Also, Shaq and Chandler cancelling eachother other? Chandler has no isolation post game and no jumper, doesn't draw fouls... he impacts the game exclusively as a help defender and rebounder.

Actually, from what I've seen with the Hornets the last couple years, he draws regular offensive attention on the pick and roll with Paul. Chandler being quite a finisher, and those two have become very good at the P/R. He also has shown a consistent post-game, it's nothing special, but effective, and over time I've come away seeing it as a consistent aspect of his game.

He's clearly worked on his offensive game since leaving Chicago. Paul and the coaching staff also being a part of it.

Hornets fans will be able to shed better light on Chandler's offense. He's definitely not just a defender/rebounder, as far as his impact on the game.

[tsherkin]

Well, I still feel the same on Amare.

But the key to everything is Shaq's health which is still not reliable, and asking him to stay relatively healthy, even come playoff time, is something significant to expect. Neither can be put down as a serious possibility either, with Shaq's age, declining game, and being injury prone. Shaq has to be on the court and not playing that hurt, to be up to what he's capable of doing now.

Undoubtedly, health is a major concern, but I like the prospects of him remaining healthy enough to contribute to a title run this and next year and MAYBE even in the final year of his deal. We'll just have to wait it out, of course, but I'm tentatively optimistic.

[bleu]

I think this is a horrible trade for PHX, but I guess we'll see.

[BirdmanSO]

I agree that this is an ill-conceived trade. It doesn't make sense to me on a lot of levels but it is especially confusing in the context of the salary cap.

Was Marion just so upset with the Suns as a team that they would have been unable to re-sign him? And if thats the case - why did they trade him for SHAQ?

[celticfan42487]

-= original quote snipped =-

Quote:
"marion was getting long offensive rebounds.. completely different since suns rely a lot on those since they tend to shoot quite a lot of jumpers. If you lose that then it leads to fast breaks against the suns... "


But teams get fastbreaks against the Suns and you can break off of short rebounds anyway because the best way to advance the ball is with a pass; it's the basic principle behind the break. Robert Parish used to bomb passes from the key to halfcourt or farther, it makes no difference where you get the rebound.

You're wrong.

He's saying that both Amare and Shaq will rebound the ball near the basket. Marion grabed the long misses from the jumpers the Suns were taking [mostly the 3 pointers]. Now those misses are more likely to be defensive rebounds becuase there out of the paint wich could turn into fast breaks agaisnt PNX.

Maybe this will change a little with Shaq in game giving them an inside out and conceivably better looks at 3s.

You're getting grumpy.



Is anyone concerned at all about the wing players, and penetrating PGs PHNX will face? At least Marion was effective againts the SG/SF's.

Now all Kobe/Ginobili/McGrady/Paul/Harris/Baron/Parker has to do is drive to the lane and dunk or run into Amare or Shaq to get to the line. Shaq was averaging 4 PF's in 29 mpg at MIA and Amare 3.8 in 32.5 mpg

Well at least PHNX won't lose to AL Jefferson anymore.

[The_Believer]

It has a two-way effect IMO. The Suns defense has improved, since Shaq could guard the Al Jeffs and such of the West, and they have a strong post player.
On the other hand, Shaq has severely regressed, and would slow their game down. Plus, he has the worst contract in the league, so if the Suns have to pay it, they're screwed for awhile.

[DBurks2818]

They had no flexibility for a while anyway. Marion + Banks = Shaq for the next two years salary-wise. The third year is when they'll start paying for this trade, but by then Shaq will have a valuable expiring contract also.

[Sloanfeld]

I really don't think this is as bad of a trade as people make it seem. I like what Greg Anthony said on ESPN, 'The Suns weren't going to win the championship with their current roster anyway,' so why the hell not? Their style won't work in the playoffs against teams such as SA, LA, Utah, and Dallas. Now Amare moves back to PF.

This trade is probably the BEST thing for 'Shack' right now. The dude's going through a divorce, was playing for the worst team in the NBA, now he's playing for a Western Conference contender instead of playing with losers. The Suns will be better off with this trade if they play SA or LA in the playoffs. While I don't think they win the NBA Finals as a result of this trade, as long as they have Steve Nash they'll be contenders.

And on a funnier note, didn't 'Shack' say that Steve Nash shouldn't have won the MVP in 2006?

[Ballings7]

D'Antoni on PTI ESPN

edit: over now

[Ballings7]

Is anyone concerned at all about the wing players, and penetrating PGs PHNX will face? At least Marion was effective againts the SG/SF's.

Now all Kobe/Ginobili/McGrady/Paul/Harris/Baron/Parker has to do is drive to the lane and dunk or run into Amare or Shaq to get to the line. Shaq was averaging 4 PF's in 29 mpg at MIA and Amare 3.8 in 32.5 mpg

Yeah.

It only makes their perimeter defense less. Marion is inconsistent in how effective he is on the ball versus most players, but at least you had what he had, and more of a chance. As well as his off the ball defense, which is where he's been best for awhile. He's capable of being a better on ball defender, from what I know from earlier in his career. But his role changed the last 3-4 years to do a lot more.

Hill's role defensively, along with Bell's, just increased a lot. Hill played some good defense last night against Paul late, but uh, more defensive responsibility from what Hill had before, as the other wing-defender, is a lot to ask. He's effective and smart generally as a defender still, but I don't know how much he can be relied on to have a larger role defensively. Plus do what he does offensively and rebounding. Maybe just kick it up (probably more from before, too) later in the games on defense. But even so, that's a significant increase in Hill's role at his age and his injury situation. Can only hope he just keeps going fairly.

[Black Jesus 1]

And on a funnier note, didn't 'Shack' say that Steve Nash shouldn't have won the MVP in 2006?

Yea, but I heard on the radio yesterday that Shaq had called Nash before that and congratulated him, so I doubt it was much, just Shaq being Shaq..

[tsherkin]

I like that Shaq had some nice things to say about Kobe and Gasol and didn't want to get wrapped up in the sort of childish BS that was happening back in the early 2000s. That was nice to hear.

[scwarrior]

Shaq for 3!