NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24

_NoMas · Post #741 » by **_NoMas** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:51 am

It’s going to be Embiid Vs Jokic again, help us all it’s gonna be a long few months on this thread. Hopefully Luka keeps balling out so we can at least have a 3 way debate

FinnTheHuman · Post #742 » by **FinnTheHuman** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:12 pm

_NoMas wrote:It’s going to be Embiid Vs Jokic again, help us all it’s gonna be a long few months on this thread. Hopefully Luka keeps balling out so we can at least have a 3 way debate

My post from the 2nd page of this thread:

FinnTheHuman wrote:I think it's gonna be Jokic with Embiid coming in 2nd again.

People don't realise that what Jokic and Embiid numbers and impact from last RS are, simply put - historical, because of the rarity of talent needed to pull that off, and nobody else can pull that off (except maybe for Giannis and Luka).

And Jokic and Embiid will have to repeat those numbers and impact if they want their teams to be one top 2-3 seeds.

I see some Jokic/Denver fans saying that Jokic will switch mode to involve teammates more/defer, but they won't be able to win game consistently like that, so he'll have to opt into the Super Saiyan mode again.

Embiid will dominate the inferior bigs in the East once again, and he'll have to do it to get Philly to a good record.

The numbers will be merciless to the other guys and historical again, and we'll have a repeat of last year except that media will not make a mistake of taking Embiid over Jokic.

The only thing that can interfere with this outcome is Embiid missing too many games.

Was a pretty easy prediction, the differing predictions were pure wishful thinking.

Floody23 · Post #743 » by **Floody23** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:43 pm

Sgt Major wrote:

Read on Twitter
?t=eMIUml8bAwoOMRJBk3k9Hg&s=19

I mean...

It’s such a pathetic way to get your points.

You’d think after learning that type of stuff doesn’t get called in the playoffs he’d actually stop doing it & try play basketball the proper way.

BigGargamel · Post #744 » by **BigGargamel** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:01 pm

Sixers are going to have to get 60 wins for Embiid to be considered, because of the mess that was last year.

Nuggets will have to get 60 wins as well, because we know voter fatigue is real, and Jokic has upped the bar even more. Anything less will be considered a disappointment.

If the Mavs can get a top 4 seed, this is Luka's year. He's right there with the other two and the NBA has been waiting to give him the hardware.

Cubbies2120 · Post #745 » by **Cubbies2120** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:31 pm

Sgt Major wrote:

Read on Twitter
?t=eMIUml8bAwoOMRJBk3k9Hg&s=19

I mean...

LMAO

Flop of the year, idk what will beat it :lol:

HotelVitale · Post #746 » by **HotelVitale** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:40 pm

Floody23 wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:

Read on Twitter
?t=eMIUml8bAwoOMRJBk3k9Hg&s=19
I mean...

It’s such a pathetic way to get your points. You’d think after learning that type of stuff doesn’t get called in the playoffs he’d actually stop doing it & try play basketball the proper way.

You guys love those cheap rage-bait buzzes, huh. Embiid's got some issues as a superstar but he scores 33 points each night in a wide variety of super-skilled ways, and you all wait around for the one highlight per week that fits your narrative of him as a fraud or a craven foul-hunter. (I'm not even sure what the narrative here is--that Embiid gets most of his points on offensive fouls? that it's pathetic to sometimes guess wrong on when to make your spin on a drive?) Here's 4 minutes of what he actually did in that game:

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=ZHHighlights

Also Embiid's FT attempts don't really fall in the PO compared to the RS so a different whistle isn't behind his PO struggles. He just gets defeated by better defensive schemes that are designed to take him out, he sorta sucks at reacting quickly and thinking one step ahead when he gets blitzed.

Cubbies2120 · Post #747 » by **Cubbies2120** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:41 pm

Jokic has gotta be the GOAT at avoiding contact in the paint or something...looking at top 4 MVP candidates:

Jokic
133 shots in the paint this year (72% shooting)
57 free throws

Embiid
123 shots in the paint this year (55% shooting)
97 free throws

Giannis
125 shots in paint this year (67% shooting)
94 free throws

Doncic
82 shots in the paint this year (65% shooting)
75 free throws

How is Jokic so good at avoiding contact?! This should be studied!

Source(s): NBA.com player shooting sub page

Exp0sed · Post #748 » by **Exp0sed** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:04 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:

Read on Twitter
?t=eMIUml8bAwoOMRJBk3k9Hg&s=19

I mean...

LMAO

Flop of the year, idk what will beat it

you know i'm an Embiid hater because he plays the way that he plays, but imo this isn't a "flop". Defender "pulls the chair" at the last moment and Embiid just loses his balance and falls down

he flops too, but not here

_NoMas · Post #749 » by **_NoMas** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:16 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Floody23 wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:

Read on Twitter
?t=eMIUml8bAwoOMRJBk3k9Hg&s=19
I mean...

It’s such a pathetic way to get your points. You’d think after learning that type of stuff doesn’t get called in the playoffs he’d actually stop doing it & try play basketball the proper way.

You guys love those cheap rage-bait buzzes, huh. Embiid scores 33 points each night in a wide variety of super-skilled ways, and you all wait around for the one highlight per week that fits your narrative of him as a fraud or a craven foul-hunter. (I'm not even sure what the narrative here is--that Embiid gets most of his points on offensive fouls? that it's pathetic to sometimes guess wrong on when to make your spin on a drive?) Here's 4 minutes of what he actually did in that game:

Watch on YouTube
;ab_channel=ZHHighlights

Also Embiid's FT attempts don't really fall in the PO compared to the RS so a different whistle isn't behind his PO struggles. He just gets defeated by better defensive schemes that are designed to take him out, he sorta sucks at reacting quickly and thinking one step ahead when he gets blitzed.

In the last two post seasons they have fallen in a fairly significant way.

21-22:

Regular season: 11.8 FTs in 33.8 mins
Post season: 8.9 FTs in 38.5 mins

22-23:
Regular season:11.7 FTs in 34.6 mins
Post season: 9.3 FTs in 37.3 mins

He’s getting 2-3 less free throws per game in about 3-5 mins per game more of playing time in the post season - not saying it’s a huge factor behind his PO struggles (health is the main reason), but he does get a different whistle come play off time imo.

FinnTheHuman · Post #750 » by **FinnTheHuman** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:39 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:Jokic has gotta be the GOAT at avoiding contact in the paint or something...looking at top 4 MVP candidates:

Jokic
133 shots in the paint this year (72% shooting)
57 free throws

Embiid
123 shots in the paint this year (55% shooting)
97 free throws

Giannis
125 shots in paint this year (67% shooting)
94 free throws

Doncic
82 shots in the paint this year (65% shooting)
75 free throws

How is Jokic so good at avoiding contact?! This should be studied!

Source(s): NBA.com player shooting sub page

He is shooting hooks and using spin moves to put the defender behind his back, effectively making it pretty hard for guys to hit him on the arms trying to block him, or commit blocking fouls by trying to stay in front. All these other guys are more frequently closer to having their shot blocked or still have their defender in front while they're driving, so the guys hit them on the arms or commit blocking fouls more often.

Jokic often doesn't get the foul calls when he's using his hookshot, f.e. when they hit him on the arm/hand after his release. It's because it's often not easy to see that foul, also the refs are kind of disincentivised to stop the game for and1 if the ball already went in and the scorer's body/arm/hand didn't contort to a large degree, which often happens for Jokic.

Jokic is definitely getting the shorter end of the stick in the regular season, but the refs don't affect his destiny nearly as much as they affect Luka's/Giannis's/Embiid's in the playoffs. So this set of factors is actually benefiting Jokic and the Nuggets when it matters imo, which is additionally important when all the finance bros want the Lakers/GSWs/Miami's of the world to win against the small/mid market teams like the Nuggets.

And I'm a Jokic fanboy, just to clear that up.

Wolfgang630 · Post #751 » by **Wolfgang630** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 4:48 pm

Updated

Maxey being up high makes sense. Maybe not that high though lol. Overall looks pretty good. Could move a few names around like Lebron higher

Read on Twitter

Hussien Fatal · Post #752 » by **Hussien Fatal** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 4:52 pm

*Maxey has entered the chat*

Post #753 » by **slick_watts** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:30 pm

Wolfgang630 wrote:Updated

Maxey being up high makes sense. Maybe not that high though lol. Overall looks pretty good. Could move a few names around like Lebron higher

Read on Twitter

hoopshype is vague about their methodology for global rating, therefore i don't see why anyone should trust or even pay attention to it.

Special_Puppy · Post #754 » by **Special_Puppy** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:28 pm

slick_watts wrote:
Wolfgang630 wrote:Updated

Maxey being up high makes sense. Maybe not that high though lol. Overall looks pretty good. Could move a few names around like Lebron higher

Read on Twitter

hoopshype is vague about their methodology for global rating, therefore i don't see why anyone should trust or even pay attention to it.

Yeah I do actually think that Maxey has been playing like a MVP candidate so far, but the Hoopshype Global Ranking is very weak evidence for it

eyeatoma · Post #755 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:55 pm

Read on Twitter

?t=yErMnm_JJ3SP_yDOIiBdIQ&s=19

Big J · Post #756 » by **Big J** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:56 pm

Whether or not people think Embiid deserved MVP last year, he has been the best player so far this season.

RB34 · Post #757 » by **RB34** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:02 pm

Big J wrote:Whether or not people think Embiid deserved MVP last year, he has been the best player so far this season.

I don’t think he has.

Big J · Post #758 » by **Big J** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:06 pm

RB34 wrote:
Big J wrote:Whether or not people think Embiid deserved MVP last year, he has been the best player so far this season.

I don’t think he has.

Best record & best stats, but hey, can't please everyone.

RB34 · Post #759 » by **RB34** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:11 pm

Big J wrote:
RB34 wrote:
Big J wrote:Whether or not people think Embiid deserved MVP last year, he has been the best player so far this season.

I don’t think he has.

Best record & best stats, but hey, can't please everyone.

30/13/8 vs 32/11/5. Philly is 8-1 and Denver is 8-2.

Embiid wasn’t even the best player on his team for a few of those wins.

Big J · Post #760 » by **Big J** » Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:14 pm

RB34 wrote:
Big J wrote:
RB34 wrote:
I don’t think he has.

Best record & best stats, but hey, can't please everyone.

30/13/8 vs 32/11/5. Philly is 8-1 and Denver is 8-2.

Embiid wasn’t even the best player on his team for a few of those wins.

Defense.

Who will be the 2023-24 NBA MVP?