RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[michaelm]

Jordan decided to retire in 1993 as he's drained physically and way past exhausted mentally and was already set on taking a break from the NBA regardless of his father’s demise. Not everyone got the mental fortitude and physical attributes to perform at very high level in consecutive years.

So when did LeBron win 3 titles in a row once, let alone twice ?.

I didn't even mention LeBron so why are you asking me that question? I'm just correcting misinformation, Jordan decided to retire in 1993 because he's drained physically and mentally not because his father got murdered. Like I said, it's fine as not everyone got the mental and physical fortitude to perform at very high level in consecutive years.

So you meant Kobe ?. Fair enough.

[AmIWrongDude]

:lol: and neither is the fact that James created superteams and hopped around the league to create the situation most advantageous for him. It’s pretty much common knowledge. He has been called out for it numerous times.

How "super" are those teams really are when all of them can't even be above .500 when LeBron doesn't play?

Read on Twitter

4-23 in the second Cavs stretch is insane especially when that team has to face up with those Warriors teams every year.

[bledredwine]

:lol: and neither is the fact that James created superteams and hopped around the league to create the situation most advantageous for him. It’s pretty much common knowledge. He has been called out for it numerous times.

How "super" are those teams really are when all of them can't even be above .500 when LeBron doesn't play?

Read on Twitter

4-23 in the second Cavs stretch is insane especially when that team has to face up with those Warriors teams every year.

Well, yeah. Lebron being on a team meaning he is the way they generate offense, hence helio-centric.

If you take him away, you're taking away their main way of playing offense and negating the way the team is built.

You'd have to fill that with someone else who can replicate that role, even to a lower level. For example, a prime Westbrook wouldn't do as good of a job but would fulfill that role.

[Iwasawitness]

How "super" are those teams really are when all of them can't even be above .500 when LeBron doesn't play?

Read on Twitter

4-23 in the second Cavs stretch is insane especially when that team has to face up with those Warriors teams every year.

Well, yeah. Lebron being on a team meaning he is the way they generate offense, hence helio-centric.

If you take him away, you're taking away their main way of playing offense and negating the way the team is built.

You'd have to fill that with someone else who can replicate that role, even to a lower level. For example, a prime Westbrook wouldn't do as good of a job but would fulfill that role.

So in other words, LeBron’s teams aren’t as stacked as you guys make them out to be. Got it.

[Homer38]

Read on Twitter

[vagelis]

Why you keep vote for the GOAT?
I think always Jordan is far ahead in any pole.

Lets make a vote for the second best of all time and exclude Jordan.

Lets see if Lebron is ahead of Bryant in the votes.
I think many of Jordan votes will go to Bryant

[ScrantonBulls]

Why you keep vote for the GOAT?
I think always Jordan is far ahead in any pole.

Lets make a vote for the second best of all time and exclude Jordan.

Lets see if Lebron is ahead of Bryant in the votes.
I think many of Jordan votes will go to Bryant

So you're basically saying MJ fans will vote for Kobe because they are insecure about LeBron being a GOAT candidate. Can't say I disagree.

Lol at Kobe beat a GOAT candidate though. The guy has zero legitimate case. He's only a GOAT candidate among casuals who eat up narrative related BS.

[michaelm]

Why you keep vote for the GOAT?
I think always Jordan is far ahead in any pole.

Lets make a vote for the second best of all time and exclude Jordan.

Lets see if Lebron is ahead of Bryant in the votes.
I think many of Jordan votes will go to Bryant

So you're basically saying MJ fans will vote for Kobe because they are insecure about LeBron being a GOAT candidate. Can't say I disagree.

Lol at Kobe beat a GOAT candidate though. The guy has zero legitimate case. He's only a GOAT candidate among casuals who eat up narrative related BS.

He is not a GOAT candidate because he played the same position in a similar way to Jordan, just not quite as well, and Jordan even has him beaten for rings. The guy who said he wasn’t interested in back and forth trolling but trolled anyway said that logically he can’t be GOAT for that reason, which is true. Counter trollers which I fully realise comes down to the same thing as trolling brought Kobe into it because at the peak of his career some perhaps over enthusiastic partisans considered him to be in the GOAT discussion, the point being that he isn’t now that his career is over, which some have suggested may happen with LeBron in his retirement, but certainly hasn’t happened yet with Jordan 27 seasons on from his prime and last title.

In general it once again comes down to being a fan of a team vs bring a fan of an individual player. I am a GSW fan who hopes the Lakers never win another title, but if (perish the thought) I was a Lakers fan I might take Kobe over LeBron, given he strongly contributed to the winning of 5 titles by the Lakers. I definitely take Curry leading my team to 4 titles over LeBron winning 4 for 3 different teams despite LeBron being obviously the more complete player.

Few if any Jordan partisans are calling LeBron being considered a challenger to Jordan for the GOAT thing ridiculous btw, we just don’t agree he is better. Kobe is probably in the 10-12 range for me, and I also agree with the poster who puts Magic ahead of him. Memories of Kobe's retirement tour which rivalled Bob Dylan’s Never Ending Tour for length remain fresh, but he was a stone cold clutch player and winner at his peak.

[Swindle]

Yeah it doesn’t look like there needs to be a part 3 thread after this. This poll could have just had 2 options (Jordan and Not Jordan) and the winner would have been the same.

[michaelm]

If Jordan has all the credit for the Pippen's development(a top 10 draft pick), LeBron needs to have at least some for the Reaves' success, an undrafted player, btw

You have a valid point imo. The thing with Pippen for me is not that Jordan personally was mainly responsible for him developing into an elite player, but against arguments in regard to having Pippen on his team being an advantage for Jordan which it was, but also by implication somehow unfair. Pippen developed next to Jordan and was given a sufficient role to become the player he became, which to my mind is qualitatively different than recruiting a player who has already become fully fledged elsewhere, and is exactly what teams should be doing. So if Lebron has stayed with a franchise less incompetent than the Cavs were when he was drafted by them for long enough for Reaves to become an elite player who is complementary to him over the course of some years then yes that is similar to Jordan and Pippen imo as well as yours.

[vagelis]

Why you keep vote for the GOAT?
I think always Jordan is far ahead in any pole.

Lets make a vote for the second best of all time and exclude Jordan.

Lets see if Lebron is ahead of Bryant in the votes.
I think many of Jordan votes will go to Bryant

So you're basically saying MJ fans will vote for Kobe because they are insecure about LeBron being a GOAT candidate. Can't say I disagree.

Lol at Kobe beat a GOAT candidate though. The guy has zero legitimate case. He's only a GOAT candidate among casuals who eat up narrative related BS.

What I am saying is that Bryant has so few GOAT votes because all his votes go to Jordan who is his better version.

If Jordan was out of the discussion, I think Bryant would get a good amount of votes for the second best player of all time

[michaelm]

Why you keep vote for the GOAT?
I think always Jordan is far ahead in any pole.

Lets make a vote for the second best of all time and exclude Jordan.

Lets see if Lebron is ahead of Bryant in the votes.
I think many of Jordan votes will go to Bryant

So you're basically saying MJ fans will vote for Kobe because they are insecure about LeBron being a GOAT candidate. Can't say I disagree.

Lol at Kobe beat a GOAT candidate though. The guy has zero legitimate case. He's only a GOAT candidate among casuals who eat up narrative related BS.

What I am saying is that Bryant has so few GOAT votes because all his votes go to Jordan who is his better version.

If Jordan was out of the discussion, I think Bryant would get a good amount of votes for the second best player of all time

Perhaps so and a reasonable point.

[The High Cyde]

Aight this thread has lost it lmfao

[ScrantonBulls]

Why you keep vote for the GOAT?
I think always Jordan is far ahead in any pole.

Lets make a vote for the second best of all time and exclude Jordan.

Lets see if Lebron is ahead of Bryant in the votes.
I think many of Jordan votes will go to Bryant

So you're basically saying MJ fans will vote for Kobe because they are insecure about LeBron being a GOAT candidate. Can't say I disagree.

Lol at Kobe beat a GOAT candidate though. The guy has zero legitimate case. He's only a GOAT candidate among casuals who eat up narrative related BS.

What I am saying is that Bryant has so few GOAT votes because all his votes go to Jordan who is his better version.

If Jordan was out of the discussion, I think Bryant would get a good amount of votes for the second best player of all time

And what I was saying is that Kobe has zero case as a GOAT candidate if you exclude casuals who barely knows the game. There's a reason he couldn't even crack the poll, lmao.

[ScrantonBulls]

Aight this thread has lost it lmfao

Youll see more and more if it as LeBron pushes his GOAT ranking further past Kareem.

[The High Cyde]

Aight this thread has lost it lmfao

Youll see more and more if it as LeBron pushes his GOAT ranking further past Kareem.

You got Jordan jockers in here making up stats to make him look better (as if Jordan needs any more help), boomer mods coming in not knowing who played when yelling at the clouds, now they’re so scared they want to remove Jordan from any discussion for GOAT altogether to protect him at all costs. It’s absurd and deranged. You don’t see this with any other sport with any of their players. Bunch of weirdos man. I’m out.

[RRR3]

Obviously LeBron isn't twice as good as MJ but threads like these have shown me someone could be twice as good as MJ and his stans wouldn't admit it.

[michaelm]

Obviously LeBron isn't twice as good as MJ but threads like these have shown me someone could be twice as good as MJ and his stans wouldn't admit it.

There are stans on both sides however.

[bledredwine]

:lol: and neither is the fact that James created superteams and hopped around the league to create the situation most advantageous for him. It’s pretty much common knowledge. He has been called out for it numerous times.

How "super" are those teams really are when all of them can't even be above .500 when LeBron doesn't play?

Read on Twitter

4-23 in the second Cavs stretch is insane especially when that team has to face up with those Warriors teams every year.

Why do fans not understand this? When Lebron is on a team, the he offense runs through him. There is no system. Of course a team will suck when you remove their method of creating offense.

And yes, he’s good. He’s a great floor raiser, not at all a great ceiling raiser. Why? Because you live and die by the lebron, and lebron’s never been as consistently great as Jordan.

I have stats on that if you don’t believe it. It’s ridiculous how few times Jordan had low efficiency, scored under a certain amount, etc. For Lebron, he simply has more weaknesses. That limits a team’s ceiling to the ceiling of that player.

And that’s as honest as this comparison gets.

[michaelm]

How "super" are those teams really are when all of them can't even be above .500 when LeBron doesn't play?

Read on Twitter

4-23 in the second Cavs stretch is insane especially when that team has to face up with those Warriors teams every year.

Why do fans not understand this? When Lebron is on a team, the he offense runs through him. There is no system. Of course a team will suck when you remove their method of creating offense.

And yes, he’s good. He’s a great floor raiser, not at all a great ceiling raiser. Why? Because you live and die by the lebron, and lebron’s never been as consistently great as Jordan.

I have stats on that if you don’t believe it. It’s ridiculous how few times Jordan had low efficiency, scored under a certain amount, etc. For Lebron, he simply has more weaknesses. That limits a team’s ceiling to the ceiling of that player.

And that’s as honest as this comparison gets.

That is one thing I have never understood in this debate, that in a team sport LeBron’s teams collapsing when he is not on court and Jordan’s teams still being functional without him on court apparently reflects well on LeBron and badly on Jordan. This is a team sport, the raison d’être is for teams to win a given game and to try to win titles. Sure in a team sport one player no matter how good can’t win a title on his own as both Jordan and LeBron have demonstrated at various stages in their respective careers. But NBA basketball teams don’t exist for the purpose of allowing their leading player to generate gaudy individual statistics, and for those who say ringzz we all know as did LeBron that even he wouldn’t be in this conversation without winning multiple titles.

And while I favour Jordan over LeBron as an individual player I don’t agree failures on his part as an individual player has been problematic for his teams, rather the opposite, but rather that there are better ways to play basketball than heliocentric LeBron ball. Steve Kerr specifically chose not to run essentially unstoppable Curry/Durant pick and roll because he believed a scheme involving the whole team more was better in the end, feeding into defensive effort etc.