ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

[mccluskey]

TD almost won almost as many titles as MJ and was the polar opposite. Was he not competitive? Seems to me like people want to make that as an excuse yet it doesn't hold up since by a lot of accounts he was a dick after his playing days as well. Does he not tip in restaurants because he's so competitive?

Seems like the majority of people who laud MJ's personality are for the most part people that never met him ( and Ahmad Rashad).

Duncan was an alltime great player for sure, and I agree with you that no question Jordan was a massive dick to his teammates because of what he saw as his way of motivating and pushing them to be better. Could he have done it a different, kinder, gentler way and still be considered the GOAT? Maybe - maybe not. It's not my leadership style for sure, nor is it the style that I (and probably most other people) would prefer to have in a team leader. But like the man said, that's who he was and that's the method that got him and his teammates to the top of the mountain. And the guys that played with him don't seem to mind ending up with all those rings.

and if I had to stake my life on a player to win a basketball game, I'm taking Jordan over anyone else, exactly because of that insanely competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathy personality. We can dislike the way he did things, but at the end of the day I want him on my team ahead of anyone else in the history of the league.

(also I always heard MJ is a good tipper and treated waiters, bellboys, etc pretty well - Scottie was supposedly the guy that never tipped anybody (No-Tippin' Pippen, etc). But I don't have any first hand knowledge of that so could be wrong.)

The notion that they won because he was an ass is flawed though. Other teams have gotten to that same mountain top without having leadership that bullied their team.

Jordan was the leader of the team and the catalyst to their championships, so I would say that the notion his leadership style didn't help get them to that point is more flawed. They didn't win simply because he was an ass - his teammates got tougher, practiced harder and pushed themselves further because he forced them to do it, and they've been saying that on this documentary.

you can disagree with the man's methods all you want - I'm not a huge fan myself - but if those methods didn't work, the Bulls wouldn't have six banners in the United Center.

[Run DLC]

It’s clear that MJ has some deep insecurity issues, but at the same time, I respect the way he pushed his teammates to the limit on the court and had high expectations from them.

[The Rodzilla]

episode 8 was the funniest part of the documentary, all they showed of game 6 against seattle was Jordon scoring a few baskets, seattle looking defeated and mixed it in with some music and quotes about his emotional state and his family

lol the reason they had to do that was because this documentary is determined to show MJ was the reason for the win and gary payton didn't shut him down, but he only shot 5-19, so they had to be creative and edit it like that because they didn't want to start showing free throws as highlights

they should have shown dennis rodman working his ass off recovering all the Jordan bricks and credited him with saving the series, but the Jordon industrial complex would never allow that

[carrrnuttt]

episode 8 was the funniest part of the documentary, all they showed of game 6 against seattle was Jordon scoring a few baskets, seattle looking defeated and mixed it in with some music and quotes about his emotional state and his family

lol the reason they had to do that was because this documentary is determined to show MJ was the reason for the win and gary payton didn't shut him down, but he only shot 5-19, so they had to be creative and edit it like that because they didn't want to start showing free throws as highlights

they should have shown dennis rodman working his ass off recovering all the Jordan bricks and credited him with saving the series, but the Jordon industrial complex would never allow that

I wonder: Is it your personal insecurities you are projecting, or are you simply reflecting LeBron's insecurities?

Pay attention to how insecurity is very closely coupled with narcissism: https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/insecurity

Warning - Personal attack. Don't condescend other posters by diagnosing them with mental illnesses.

[Brofessor24]

episode 8 was the funniest part of the documentary, all they showed of game 6 against seattle was Jordon scoring a few baskets, seattle looking defeated and mixed it in with some music and quotes about his emotional state and his family

lol the reason they had to do that was because this documentary is determined to show MJ was the reason for the win and gary payton didn't shut him down, but he only shot 5-19, so they had to be creative and edit it like that because they didn't want to start showing free throws as highlights

they should have shown dennis rodman working his ass off recovering all the Jordan bricks and credited him with saving the series, but the Jordon industrial complex would never allow that

I wonder: Is it your personal insecurities you are projecting, or are you simply reflecting LeBron's insecurities?

Pay attention to how insecurity is very closely coupled with narcissism: https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/insecurity

By chance, are you projecting any personal insecurities?

[LKN]

The Glove/MJ thing is not why the Bulls didn't close out Seattle. MJ had tough shooting nights in games 4 and 6, but he still had a .538 TS for the series compared to an overall .509 TS for Chicago.

The real problem was that Pippen couldn't hit the broadside of a Barn against Seattle (he did play good defense though). He shot 34% and had a .429 TS. Kukoc struggled too... but managed to hit enough threes to get up to a .517 TS.

The only Bulls with better scoring efficiency than MJ were Luc Longley (who unfortunately was a turnover machine like usual), Randy Brown and Bill Wennington.

I guess the Bulls should have tried to get more shots for Brown and Wennington.... LMFAO


This series was actually somewhat typical of the 2nd threepeat. MJ was often the only player who could generate offense consistently and he had to hoist up a ton of shots.

Pippen averaged a .500 TS during the 2nd threepeat playoffs. When that's your 2nd scoring option you probably should be hoisting up tons of shots.

[The Rodzilla]

episode 8 was the funniest part of the documentary, all they showed of game 6 against seattle was Jordon scoring a few baskets, seattle looking defeated and mixed it in with some music and quotes about his emotional state and his family

lol the reason they had to do that was because this documentary is determined to show MJ was the reason for the win and gary payton didn't shut him down, but he only shot 5-19, so they had to be creative and edit it like that because they didn't want to start showing free throws as highlights

they should have shown dennis rodman working his ass off recovering all the Jordan bricks and credited him with saving the series, but the Jordon industrial complex would never allow that

I wonder: Is it your personal insecurities you are projecting, or are you simply reflecting LeBron's insecurities?

Pay attention to how insecurity is very closely coupled with narcissism: https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/insecurity

im watching this Jordon documentary in my underwear, laughing my ass off and eating oreo's, so im very comfortable

don't worry about the Rodzilla, you should be worried about the insecurities of Jordon, making this documentary as soon as LeBron won the title for Cleveland is a clear sign that he is not happy and needs more attention

[LKN]

It’s clear that MJ has some deep insecurity issues, but at the same time, I respect the way he pushed his teammates to the limit on the court and had high expectations from them.

Insecurity? That's about the last thing I'd accuse MJ of.

He's definitely an A-hole sometimes.

He's possibly a psychopath (seems pretty clearly borderline).


But insecure? No... you want to see insecure look at Shaq, KD. LeBron and Pippen are guys that are insecure to a lesser degree. MJ? Hell no, he's like Kobe with the IDGAF what you think because your are wrong attitude.

[The Rodzilla]

It’s clear that MJ has some deep insecurity issues, but at the same time, I respect the way he pushed his teammates to the limit on the court and had high expectations from them.

Insecurity? That's about the last thing I'd accuse MJ of.

He's definitely an A-hole sometimes.

He's possibly a psychopath (seems pretty clearly borderline).


But insecure? No... you want to see insecure look at Shaq, KD. LeBron and Pippen are guys that are insecure to a lesser degree. MJ? Hell no, he's like Kobe with the IDGAF what you think because your are wrong attitude.

he dictates what the media are supposed to say about him and gets pissed off about the slightest thing or creates reasons to be offended and its because he cares what people think

like if I lose in a game of street fighter and I cant let it go and go crazy until I have revenge in a rematch, then it could be described that im insecure and need constant confirmation that im incredible

[LKN]

It’s clear that MJ has some deep insecurity issues, but at the same time, I respect the way he pushed his teammates to the limit on the court and had high expectations from them.

Insecurity? That's about the last thing I'd accuse MJ of.

He's definitely an A-hole sometimes.

He's possibly a psychopath (seems pretty clearly borderline).


But insecure? No... you want to see insecure look at Shaq, KD. LeBron and Pippen are guys that are insecure to a lesser degree. MJ? Hell no, he's like Kobe with the IDGAF what you think because your are wrong attitude.

he dictates what the media are supposed to say about him and gets pissed off about the slightest thing or creates reasons to be offended and its because he cares what people think

like if I lose in a game of street fighter and I cant let it go and go crazy until I have revenge in a rematch, then it could be described that im insecure and need constant confirmation that im incredible

No - that would mean you are a competitive psychopath. Being insecure would be being obsessed with what other people thought of your street fighter skills.

OT: Street fighter is awesome . I got my first job in high school to buy an SNES so I could play Street Fighter 2

[LKN]

My biggest takeaway from the series so far is Pippen was a huge diva and not very likable.

Pippen was correct, this was a straight up disrespect move to have him inbound the ball

the Jordon industrial complex cant allow pippen to win the game for the bulls or win the series, that would impact sales

MJ wasn't even on the f**king team then! FFS people, each take more absurd than the last.

[The Rodzilla]

Insecurity? That's about the last thing I'd accuse MJ of.

He's definitely an A-hole sometimes.

He's possibly a psychopath (seems pretty clearly borderline).


But insecure? No... you want to see insecure look at Shaq, KD. LeBron and Pippen are guys that are insecure to a lesser degree. MJ? Hell no, he's like Kobe with the IDGAF what you think because your are wrong attitude.

he dictates what the media are supposed to say about him and gets pissed off about the slightest thing or creates reasons to be offended and its because he cares what people think

like if I lose in a game of street fighter and I cant let it go and go crazy until I have revenge in a rematch, then it could be described that im insecure and need constant confirmation that im incredible

No - that would mean you are a competitive psychopath. Being insecure would be being obsessed with what other people thought of your street fighter skills.

OT: Street fighter is awesome . I got my first job in high school to buy an SNES so I could play Street Fighter 2

Jordan is confident in his basketball skills but he was trying to present that he was god, jesus and the holy spirit of basketball all wrapped up into one, that's where the insecurity is and yes he was obsessed with what other people thought, someone writing a bad article or a friend saying something bad would be punished and that could only be that he cared too much what other people thought

if someone scored 30pts on him, then he gets pissed off because people saw that guy score 30pts and they will start having a theory that Jordan might not be god, so he had to kill him off next time

theres nothing wrong with being insecure though, its natural, for example the rodzilla is insecure about his penis size

[LKN]

You cant dominate that much AND be happy go lucky on court. Its one or the other.

I don't buy this at all. That's how Jordan did it, because that was his personality. As we saw in that scene where he's trying to see who can roll a quarter closest to a wall with his security guys, this was a person who took sincere delight in winning literal change in a kid's game despite being worth hundreds of millions. His will to dominate permeated every aspect of his life.

But somebody like Tim Duncan had one of the most successful individual and team careers in NBA history while being, by all accounts, shockingly down to earth and well-adjusted. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and Bill Russell were also supreme competitors and could certainly be testy, but I haven't read anything about them even remotely resembling Jordan's sheer maliciousness. Getting into college basketball, mild-mannered, gentlemanly Dean Smith didn't need to abuse people like Bobby Knight to win championships.

Jordan has one saving grace in this area: The results were spectacular, across the board. But it's not a requirement.

Actually Bird, Magic and Russell were all pretty crazy too. Magic was a freak about practice similar to MJ and Bird was legendary for showing guys up in actual games. I mean he played an entire game left handed and scored a ton of points. That's taking a complete dump on other professionals in public.

[LKN]

I feel you but can you be the GOAT?
And by many accounts, he was a cool dude off the court, but on the court he was a complete jerk.

I don't think the two are directly related. MJ may be the GOAT but there's other legends that are better leaders but winners as well. Not a one thing or the other situation.

TD almost won almost as many titles as MJ and was the polar opposite. Was he not competitive? Seems to me like people want to make that as an excuse yet it doesn't hold up since by a lot of accounts he was a dick after his playing days as well. Does he not tip in restaurants because he's so competitive?

Seems like the majority of people who laud MJ's personality are for the most part people that never met him ( and Ahmad Rashad).

That's because the roles in the Pop/Duncan duo are reversed from the Jackson/MJ duo.

Also the Spurs and Duncan were never dominant like the MJ Bulls were.... the only thing you can compare them to are the Russell Celtics - and after watching this I'm going to read some books on Russell. Supposedly he was also pretty nuts about competition and extremely intense.

[LKN]

So far those who downloaded the leaked versions.... I'm not 100% sure but it looks like it might be worth watching the released versions as I think I've noticed some differences.

[Sedale Threatt]

You cant dominate that much AND be happy go lucky on court. Its one or the other.

I don't buy this at all. That's how Jordan did it, because that was his personality. As we saw in that scene where he's trying to see who can roll a quarter closest to a wall with his security guys, this was a person who took sincere delight in winning literal change in a kid's game despite being worth hundreds of millions. His will to dominate permeated every aspect of his life.

But somebody like Tim Duncan had one of the most successful individual and team careers in NBA history while being, by all accounts, shockingly down to earth and well-adjusted. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and Bill Russell were also supreme competitors and could certainly be testy, but I haven't read anything about them even remotely resembling Jordan's sheer maliciousness. Getting into college basketball, mild-mannered, gentlemanly Dean Smith didn't need to abuse people like Bobby Knight to win championships.

Jordan has one saving grace in this area: The results were spectacular, across the board. But it's not a requirement.

Actually Bird, Magic and Russell were all pretty crazy too. Magic was a freak about practice similar to MJ and Bird was legendary for showing guys up in actual games. I mean he played an entire game left handed and scored a ton of points. That's taking a complete dump on other professionals in public.

The opponent stuff, I couldn't care less about. Frankly, in Jordan's case, a lot of it is funny given the extreme lengths he went to conjure grievances. Especially stuff like Dan Majerle, where the guy's only fault was that Krause liked him. Or, as we reviewed last night, poor LaBradford Smith. That's just competition, so do whatever it takes within the rules of the game to beat that ass.

But I've read pretty much every book I can get my hands on regarding the NBA since I started following it, and I can't recall anything even remotely approaching Jordan's treatment of teammates.

I mean, I'm not stupid enough to think he was the only one, or that everybody gets along all the time. Bird and especially McHale, for example, used to ride Bill Walton about his stutter. I can't recall the exact details, but I want to say Magic got sideways with some fringe dude in training camp one year and got him traded. Kobe could ride guys pretty hard; Lou Williams has a story where he took everybody's Kobes after a bad loss and told them they couldn't wear them anymore because they were too soft. There are thousands of more examples where that came from.

But you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who took it to the levels of sheer vindictiveness that Jordan did. I just don't think that's anything to be celebrated or glorified.

[Sedale Threatt]

I don't think the two are directly related. MJ may be the GOAT but there's other legends that are better leaders but winners as well. Not a one thing or the other situation.

TD almost won almost as many titles as MJ and was the polar opposite. Was he not competitive? Seems to me like people want to make that as an excuse yet it doesn't hold up since by a lot of accounts he was a dick after his playing days as well. Does he not tip in restaurants because he's so competitive?

Seems like the majority of people who laud MJ's personality are for the most part people that never met him ( and Ahmad Rashad).

That's because the roles in the Pop/Duncan duo are reversed from the Jackson/MJ duo.

Also the Spurs and Duncan were never dominant like the MJ Bulls were.... the only thing you can compare them to are the Russell Celtics - and after watching this I'm going to read some books on Russell. Supposedly he was also pretty nuts about competition and extremely intense.

This is the second time I've seen somebody bring this up, and it doesn't make sense to me. Like, if Tim Duncan would have been coached by another great, but more mild-mannered coach (Bill Sharman, Phil Jackson, etc), with the same teammates, do we think he wouldn't have enjoyed similar success? Put another way: Pop's jerkoff tendencies were not a necessity.

Speaking of Gregg Popovich, he's another guy who has at times been a complete ass hole for zero reason. I covered the Spurs for three years earlier in the decade, and I saw him do some truly despicable ****, including lighting up college interns in rooms full of people and throwing tantrums because he didn't want to speak to the media.

Just like Jordan's bullying, I have zero tolerance for that sh*t. Tons of athletes in all sports have managed to enjoy success without emasculating teammates, and many coaches over many years have managed to deal with the media and other parts of their job they probably don't like without humiliating anyone.

Again, you don't have to be like that. Popovich wasn't balancing out Duncan's laid-back tendencies, just like Jordan wasn't driving his teammates to new heights. They were just being pricks, while also being extremely good at their jobs.

The thing is, Jordan knows this. The fact that one of the few times he's showed tangible emotions during this doc was when he was asked to confront the legacy of how he treated his teammates is extremely telling.

[Sedale Threatt]

It’s clear that MJ has some deep insecurity issues, but at the same time, I respect the way he pushed his teammates to the limit on the court and had high expectations from them.

I mean, he pretty much flat-out explained what he thinks drove him earlier in the series: He felt like he was battling his older brother, with whom he had a blood-thirsty childhood rivalry, for his dad's affections. Unless we do a lot of recovery work, most of us are just repeating patterns and habits from our youth, much of which is dysfunctional, and it seems like that was his.

[LKN]

In the 1996 finals the sonics had 3 guys score at better volume and efficiency than Pippen and 4 guys who did the same compared to Kukoc. Kemp was killing it in particular (outside of his turnovers).

Those second threepeat Bulls really didn't give MJ that much offensive help in the playoffs sometimes (defense and rebounding were absolutely on point though).... and Bulls were always good at limiting turnovers, even if MJ was the only guy scoring consistently.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html

[prolific passer]

Jordan just falls in line with Russell, Bird, Magic before him and Kobe after in which all they wanted to do was win championships.