2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[Dutchball97]

Curry wasn't all that in the regular season. I don't think he deserved first team all NBA and I'm a Steph fan. Once the 3 point record was within reach he started pressing and his efficiency took a hit like we never seen before from Steph. Then once the playoff came around he went nuclear but that shouldn't factor in

With that being said, what he's doing right now at 34 years of age is super impressive and he should be in the MVP discussion despite the Warriors 8-9 record. He's playing as good as he's ever played, especially distributing the basketball

I mean Booker was 1st Team and Curry had the relative same counting stats with a better advanced line across the board, with it not being close in the PM on/off stats. It wasn’t his best season (despite being the near unanimous MVP through the first two official “straw polls” of actual ballot voters), but he was inarguably the better player and should have been 1st Team.

That’s in the past, but hearing that podcast of 4 diffeeent “NBA experts” not utter his name once when counting down the best players of the season this year was glaring. A guy like Kobe never played close to this great at his absolute peak, and we never would have heard the end of it had he.

It's not the first time, nor will it be the last

2010 ROY Evans over Curry
2013 ALL-STAR Lee over Curry
2013 ALL-NBA 3rd Wade over Curry (Lee ALL-NBA 3rd team as F)
2015 FMVP Iggy over Curry
2017 FMVP KD over Curry
2017 ALL-NBA 1st Harden over Curry (Realgm TOP50 peaks - Curry 2017 11th)
2018 ALL-NBA 2nd DeRozan over Curry (Lebron with 45 games 2nd ALLNBA in 2021, 56 game 3rd ALLNBA in 2022 w/o PO)
2018 FMVP KD over Curry
2020 ALL-STAR Curry miss (Kobe 6 games 2014 - ALLSTAR, Jordan 18 games 86 - ALLSTAR)
2022 ALL-NBA 1st Booker over Curry

I dont say that all these selections are wrong, but its going into one direction with double standarts.

- 2010 ROY: Curry should've probably won this looking at his superior +- but it's not too surprising Evans won since he did have more counting stats, an advantage in more easily available boxscore metrics and being a higher pick with higher expectations.
- 2013 All-Star: They weren't competing for the same spots and Curry even got more votes than Lee overall. You could argue Curry deserved to be in the game but with a tough group of Kobe, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Harden and Westbrook ahead of him that was always going to be tough to break into.
- 2013 All-NBA: Funnily enough this looks like the opposite of the 2010 ROY race. Curry looks better in the boxscore but in terms of impact Wade actually stacks up as well and in some metrics better here. Considering Curry hadn't made an All-Star team yet and Wade was one of the biggest stars in the league on the undeniable top team, this seems understandable too.
- 2015 FMVP: Not even going to really entertain this here. Iggy played great and Curry disappointed but if they didn't want to give it to LeBron on the losing team then it had to go to Curry.
- 2017 FMVP: I know people want to downplay what KD did but you can't not give it to guy averaging 35 points on 56/47/93% shooting.
- 2017 All-NBA: Really tough call. Curry took on a lesser role with KD coming in and it showed in the boxscore where Harden has a clear advantage. Harden was also a way more serious MVP candidate, which probably helped. In terms of impact and +- stats Curry is very clearly ahead though so looks like another case of deserved for Curry but understandable why they went a different route.
- 2018 All-NBA: DeRozan had his best year here and despite not being better than Curry he did play 30 more games. In terms of overall value this looks pretty close and unsurprising they went with the more active player.
- 2018 FMVP: Another pretty clear case for KD imo. They scored almost equal but KD was much more efficient. KD even has a playmaking advantage with more assists and less turnovers besides also being a better rebounder and defender than Curry here.
- 2020 All-Star: He was very close to making it but I don't think using examples of other undeserved selections is an argument Curry should've gotten it here. Though it is fair to not really take into account those MJ and Kobe selections when comparing them to Curry.
- 2022 All-NBA: Curry should've been ahead clearly.

So in short I think the only two indefensible snubs are the 2015 FMVP and 2022 All-NBA. I don't really see any argument for Curry getting the FMVPs over KD in either 2017 or 2018, while 2020 All-Star is a bit of a weird case where there is a precedent but not the best case. The rest all seem like Curry should've gotten it but it's not surprising they went another way. It is fair to note though that Curry very rarely gets the benefit of the doubt where other all-time greats do.

[yoyoboy]

1. Curry
2. Tatum
3. Doncic
4. Mitchell
5. SGA
6. Jokic
7. Giannis
8. Embiid
9. Durant
10. Booker

[Jurassic_Park]

Sucks… Embiid out for 2 games and maybe more. Just can’t stay healthy enough. Don’t see him winning this award.

[bradybunch]

Steph Curry would like a talk with us.

[Triple M]

How far up the standings do the Warriors got to finish before Curry has a legitimate chance.

[Texas Chuck]

How far up the standings do the Warriors got to finish before Curry has a legitimate chance.

I mean you have to be in the playoffs as a minimum. And nothing unreasonable or biased against Steph about that despite the claims that will be made.

[Onus]

How far up the standings do the Warriors got to finish before Curry has a legitimate chance.

I mean you have to be in the playoffs as a minimum. And nothing unreasonable or biased against Steph about that despite the claims that will be made.

We're 3.5 games away from 1st place in the west ... using standings this early seems pointless.

[Exp0sed]

How far up the standings do the Warriors got to finish before Curry has a legitimate chance.

I mean you have to be in the playoffs as a minimum. And nothing unreasonable or biased against Steph about that despite the claims that will be made.

the Warriors will be in the playoffs, is any1 questioning that?
likely with HCA

it's not possible for Curry to carry on like this for a whole season
unless he wants another unanimous MVP and looks like he wants it haha

[BoatsNZones]

I mean everyone in the Western Conference basically has the same record. The Warriors are both 3 games back from 1st and “out of the playoffs”. Way too early to bother looking at standings for that reason.

[Texas Chuck]

How far up the standings do the Warriors got to finish before Curry has a legitimate chance.

I mean you have to be in the playoffs as a minimum. And nothing unreasonable or biased against Steph about that despite the claims that will be made.

We're 3.5 games away from 1st place in the west ... using standings this early seems pointless.

Where did I do that? I do not understand this determination to find persecution where there is none.

I answered the question. I think any team who fails to make the playoffs will eliminate their star from the MVP conversation, including one Wardell Curry. I didn't say the Warriors were not going to make the playoffs.

Cheers

[Onus]

I mean you have to be in the playoffs as a minimum. And nothing unreasonable or biased against Steph about that despite the claims that will be made.

We're 3.5 games away from 1st place in the west ... using standings this early seems pointless.

Where did I do that? I do not understand this determination to find persecution where there is none.

I answered the question. I think any team who fails to make the playoffs will eliminate their star from the MVP conversation, including one Wardell Curry. I didn't say the Warriors were not going to make the playoffs.

Cheers

I must have gotten this conversation confused with a different one. Sorry about that

In any case the lowest is most likely a 6th seed if he wants a chance.

[Texas Chuck]

I must have gotten this conversation confused with a different one. Sorry about that

In any case the lowest is most likely a 6th seed if he wants a chance.

No worries. And yeah we've seen some MVP's in the bottom of the bracket, though not many. But if any season is worthy, Steph's is certainly trending that direction. Has to be the player causing the most sleepless nights for opposing defensive coordinators. How do you possibly defend him?

I mean I look at the little Mavs' offensive genius and am blown away by what he is capable of and then I look at Steph and am reminded there are even higher levels to this.

[Triple M]

How far up the standings do the Warriors got to finish before Curry has a legitimate chance.

I mean you have to be in the playoffs as a minimum. And nothing unreasonable or biased against Steph about that despite the claims that will be made.

We're 3.5 games away from 1st place in the west ... using standings this early seems pointless.

I'm asking where they have to finish, not talking as of now. For example, is the 6th seed enough or is it the 4th seed etc. Historically it is usually the 3rd seed but is Curry playing at a level so high that being a lower seed doesn't matter as much?

[_NoMas]

I mean you have to be in the playoffs as a minimum. And nothing unreasonable or biased against Steph about that despite the claims that will be made.

We're 3.5 games away from 1st place in the west ... using standings this early seems pointless.

I'm asking where they have to finish, not talking as of now. For example, is the 6th seed enough or is it the 4th seed etc. Historically it is usually the 3rd seed but is Curry playing at a level so high that being a lower seed doesn't matter as much?

In terms of seeding I think 6 is the lowest an MVP could finish to win the award. Even then you would likely need some luck in terms of competition for the award, with number of wins needing to be taken into account. Part of the reason Jokic won the award last year was that his 2 main rivals (Giannis and Embiid) teams only won 3 more games then the Nuggets - hence team record was almost a wash, and Jokic’s superior individual performance, plus availability, (minus his 2 best teammates) gave him the award even as a 6 seed.

If Steph was to keep up this performance and the warriors finish 6th, but Luka, Giannis or Tatum finished with 8-10+ more wins then Steph (as well as continuing on the same trajectory in terms of performance that they’ve shown already), I can’t see Steph winning the award.

[shoresy69]

90.8% of his 2 pt makes have been unassisted - that's second among starters with Suggs being first obviously at a much lower volume

All of the stats you posted are impressive, and I don't want to get it twisted Luka is amazing (just like prime Harden was). But how the hell are Luka's shots going to end up being assisted when the man has the ball in his hands for 10+ minutes per game.

I know a lot of this is dictated by the type of players around him, but his playstyle directly leads to high amounts of unassisted shot attempts for himself or him assisting shots for his teammates. Because he always has the ball in his hands.

[Exp0sed]

90.8% of his 2 pt makes have been unassisted - that's second among starters with Suggs being first obviously at a much lower volume

All of the stats you posted are impressive, and I don't want to get it twisted Luka is amazing (just like prime Harden was). But how the hell are Luka's shots going to end up being assisted when the man has the ball in his hands for 10+ minutes per game.

I know a lot of this is dictated by the type of players around him, but his playstyle directly leads to high amounts of unassisted shot attempts for himself or him assisting shots for his teammates. Because he always has the ball in his hands.

meh, obviously having the ball in his hands alot leads to more assists and a lower % of his own buckets being assisted but that's not that dramatic of an effect
but it's a high number regardless and it was just a tidbit anyway

i think ur underselling what he's doing by alot:

if most players would have Luka's usage\touches - what do you think that will lead too?

let's say we give Bismack byombo every ball or every other ball like Luka
if he tries to dribble, he will have a ton of To's
if he tries to score - he would miss most of his shots
if he tries to pass, he will either pick a safe pass (that usually doesn't lead to a good scoring opportunity) or try a riskier pass, that has a potential to lead to better shots for his teammates but again - lots of turnovers, right?

between guys like LBJ\Harden\Luka etc that are on one end of this spectrum and guys like Byombo who are on the other - there's obviously all the in between

what happens if you give Jordan Clarkson every ball?
i'll give u a hint - it ain't gonna be pretty or effective

this isn't some unfair advantage that Luka is gaining by having incredibly high usage etc. - he is given that role because he is generationally effective offensively, he's elite at scoring, assisting, reading the defense etc

what ur saying implies that it's nothing...like hey, if we give any1 the ball he will have 90% unassisted and loads of assists and points himeslf - but that's obviously not the case

in summation it's not his playstyle that leads to these numbers (although it's obviously a bit inflated because of it- that's kind of marginal) - it's his talent and skills that lead to him being in this role in the first place (very few players can do what he has done thus far in his career and all of them are all time greats )

he's damn good at it this season especially thus far and i mean - incredibly good

[Cubbies2120]

Tatum's numbers have already started going down, and the Sixers are only 4 games behind.

4.5 games behind, and just lost Maxey.

Also "Tatum's numbers have already started going down", because of a 2 game sample size lol. Two bad games for Tatum, two historic games for Embiid and that's the reason that Embiid's even in the convo with Tatum right now.

Being 4.5 games back in such a small sample size is actually a lot.

Also, you have to pray for Embiid's health. He's already missed 4 games, if he gets to 10+ again it's hard to bet against history. Remember, there has been ONE MVP in the last 40 years that missed more than 10 games in a season, Allen Iverson, and he missed 11.

Embiid is on pace to miss like 20 games already...

You said that last year, and then he missed a career low even after Covid. Yes, health will be key, but you can only play with the hand you got. You could say the same thing about tons of MVP candidates. Giannis has dropped now since his knee injury, Morant is out of th e picture as he'll be out for a while. Luka usually misses some time as well. Durant is old as ****, and usually misses 20 games, the only player who hasn't is Tatum, eventually he might miss some time too, but we'll see.

Unfortunately, he's out at least another two games. That will be 6 games of a possible 18. He'll be on pace to miss over 25 games this year which would, again, unfortunately, knock him out of any serious MVP discussion.

Embiid would be an ideal regular season MVP candidate if the league played 50 games a year.

[WarriorGM]

Curry wasn't all that in the regular season. I don't think he deserved first team all NBA and I'm a Steph fan. Once the 3 point record was within reach he started pressing and his efficiency took a hit like we never seen before from Steph. Then once the playoff came around he went nuclear but that shouldn't factor in

With that being said, what he's doing right now at 34 years of age is super impressive and he should be in the MVP discussion despite the Warriors 8-9 record. He's playing as good as he's ever played, especially distributing the basketball

I mean Booker was 1st Team and Curry had the relative same counting stats with a better advanced line across the board, with it not being close in the PM on/off stats. It wasn’t his best season (despite being the near unanimous MVP through the first two official “straw polls” of actual ballot voters), but he was inarguably the better player and should have been 1st Team.

That’s in the past, but hearing that podcast of 4 diffeeent “NBA experts” not utter his name once when counting down the best players of the season this year was glaring. A guy like Kobe never played close to this great at his absolute peak, and we never would have heard the end of it had he.

It's not the first time, nor will it be the last

2010 ROY Evans over Curry
2013 ALL-STAR Lee over Curry
2013 ALL-NBA 3rd Wade over Curry (Lee ALL-NBA 3rd team as F)
2015 FMVP Iggy over Curry
2017 FMVP KD over Curry
2017 ALL-NBA 1st Harden over Curry (Realgm TOP50 peaks - Curry 2017 11th)
2018 ALL-NBA 2nd DeRozan over Curry (Lebron with 45 games 2nd ALLNBA in 2021, 56 game 3rd ALLNBA in 2022 w/o PO)
2018 FMVP KD over Curry
2020 ALL-STAR Curry miss (Kobe 6 games 2014 - ALLSTAR, Jordan 18 games 86 - ALLSTAR)
2022 ALL-NBA 1st Booker over Curry

I dont say that all these selections are wrong, but its going into one direction with double standarts.

You missed 2017 and 2022 MVP.

I've said before Curry has arguably the greatest consecutive 5-year stretch in any NBA career. His media awards don't reflect it. The media's treatment of him in the way they talk about his career doesn't reflect it. Curry was voted 8th in MVP voting last year despite leading his team to the 3rd best record and being the player with the most proven career by far.

[Hobo4President]

After their hot starts Giannis and Luka slowed down a bit. I have Curry number 1 now.

[CharityStripe34]

After their hot starts Giannis and Luka slowed down a bit. I have Curry number 1 now.

Those three plus Tatum and Jokic will be, most likely, having MVP worthy seasons.