2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 4: Who is the MVP?)

[lethalizer]

People around here really diminishing the likes of Murray, Gordon and MPJ to Bron's supporting cast when he was in Cleveland.

This is just funny at this point. There's nothing wrong with saying Jokic is your MVP, but come on man.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Everyone gets it but OKC homers. He won't win it due to a flawed voting system, but Jokic is the best basketball player in the world and far and away the most valuable player to his team. And every single GM in the NBA would take Jokic over Shai if they were starting a team. Every single one.

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Seems like you're the one here who doesn't understand the award.

And the folks with the votes seem to disagree with you as well.

[MoneyTalks41890]

FWIW I don't think the award should be unanimous.

[Packbuckman]

Joker's the best player in the world, but that's not what the MVP is about. If it was, Lebron would have a dozen MVP awards rather than "just" 4.

Far from a OKC homer. In fact, i find alot of their games boring. Shai is MVP. Seems like you, and alot of Jokic stans, are having trouble understanding that being the best player doesnt automatically mean you’re the MVP. Or else LeBron would have 10+. In NFL terms, im sure every NFL GM would say Mahomes is the best player in the world. That maybe true but yet he rightfully hasn’t won MVP in years. They are two totally separate arguments.

Jokic, for as great as he is and all the great stats he has put up and all the value he provides, has led his team to a disappointing season that will finish with MAYBE only 50 wins. They are an extremely up and down, weak defensive above average team with Jokic on the floor. He’s been amazing but the totality aint good enough.


You Jokic fans just need to take the L and charge it to the game. Jokic has won a MVP before when he didn’t have the best stats.

Joker's the most valuable player in the world too. He's literally both. OKC is still a Playoff team without Shai. They wouldn't be the #1 Seed obviously, but they'd still be a Playoff team nonetheless because they have a much better team, especially defensively. Take Jokic off that Denver squad and they'd fall off a cliff. They'd be in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes without him. I actually can't think of the last time the unanimous best player in the world had this weak of a supporting cast. Lebron in 2007 comes to mind, but he wasn't the best player in the world yet. He finished 5th in MVP voting that year. Kobe was 28 and in his prime, and was still widely-considered the best player in the world at that time (he won the MVP the following year), with prime Dirk (2007 MVP) right behind him. Regardless, there isn't a single team that is more reliant on one player than the Nuggets are with Nikola Jokic. That makes him the most valuable player to his team.

I don’t think jokic is the best player in the world he is the best offensive player. Giannis is still the best two way player and when the bucks and nuggets played Giannis was the best player on the court. There is two sides to the game defense does matter especially come playoffs. The bucks are just reliant on Giannis as the nuggets with jokic we probably got the worst coach in the league I hear nuggets fans hating on Malone I would trade you Doc for him in a minute.

[SpurNani]

Joker's the best player in the world, but that's not what the MVP is about. If it was, Lebron would have a dozen MVP awards rather than "just" 4.

Far from a OKC homer. In fact, i find alot of their games boring. Shai is MVP. Seems like you, and alot of Jokic stans, are having trouble understanding that being the best player doesnt automatically mean you’re the MVP. Or else LeBron would have 10+. In NFL terms, im sure every NFL GM would say Mahomes is the best player in the world. That maybe true but yet he rightfully hasn’t won MVP in years. They are two totally separate arguments.

Jokic, for as great as he is and all the great stats he has put up and all the value he provides, has led his team to a disappointing season that will finish with MAYBE only 50 wins. They are an extremely up and down, weak defensive above average team with Jokic on the floor. He’s been amazing but the totality aint good enough.


You Jokic fans just need to take the L and charge it to the game. Jokic has won a MVP before when he didn’t have the best stats.

Joker's the most valuable player in the world too. He's literally both. OKC is still a Playoff team without Shai. They wouldn't be the #1 Seed obviously, but they'd still be a Playoff team nonetheless because they have a much better team, especially defensively. Take Jokic off that Denver squad and they'd fall off a cliff. They'd be in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes without him. I actually can't think of the last time the unanimous best player in the world had this weak of a supporting cast. Lebron in 2007 comes to mind, but he wasn't the best player in the world yet. He finished 5th in MVP voting that year. Kobe was 28 and in his prime, and was still widely-considered the best player in the world at that time (he won the MVP the following year), with prime Dirk (2007 MVP) right behind him. Regardless, there isn't a single team that is more reliant on one player than the Nuggets are with Nikola Jokic. That makes him the most valuable player to his team.

Just flat out wrong and ignorant. You are literally comparing a team that just won THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP less than 24 months ago and has 4 of its 5 starters from that same team this year, and one could argue that Braun is an upgrade over KCP, to the team that LeBron dragged to the finals in 2007.

Just unbelievable the extremes you Jokic fans will go to.

[Castle Black]

Everyone gets it but OKC homers. He won't win it due to a flawed voting system, but Jokic is the best basketball player in the world and far and away the most valuable player to his team. And every single GM in the NBA would take Jokic over Shai if they were starting a team. Every single one.

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Seems like you're the one here who doesn't understand the award.

And the folks with the votes seem to disagree with you as well.

You're an OKC fan so I'm sure you're unbiased in this discussion.

Jokic is the best player in the world AND the most valuable to his team. How is that not worthy of the MVP Award..? No team relies more on one single player than Denver does with Jokic. OKC is still a Playoff team without Shai. Denver is a lottery team without Joker.

The poll in this thread seems to disagree with you as well. But we can agree to disagree, that's fine.

[hardenASG13]

Joker's the best player in the world, but that's not what the MVP is about. If it was, Lebron would have a dozen MVP awards rather than "just" 4.

Far from a OKC homer. In fact, i find alot of their games boring. Shai is MVP. Seems like you, and alot of Jokic stans, are having trouble understanding that being the best player doesnt automatically mean you’re the MVP. Or else LeBron would have 10+. In NFL terms, im sure every NFL GM would say Mahomes is the best player in the world. That maybe true but yet he rightfully hasn’t won MVP in years. They are two totally separate arguments.

Jokic, for as great as he is and all the great stats he has put up and all the value he provides, has led his team to a disappointing season that will finish with MAYBE only 50 wins. They are an extremely up and down, weak defensive above average team with Jokic on the floor. He’s been amazing but the totality aint good enough.


You Jokic fans just need to take the L and charge it to the game. Jokic has won a MVP before when he didn’t have the best stats.

Joker's the most valuable player in the world too. He's literally both. OKC is still a Playoff team without Shai. They wouldn't be the #1 Seed obviously, but they'd still be a Playoff team nonetheless because they have a much better team, especially defensively. Take Jokic off that Denver squad and they'd fall off a cliff. They'd be in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes without him. I actually can't think of the last time the unanimous best player in the world had this weak of a supporting cast. Lebron in 2007 comes to mind, but he wasn't the best player in the world yet. He finished 5th in MVP voting that year. Kobe was 28 and in his prime, and was still widely-considered the best player in the world at that time (he won the MVP the following year), with prime Dirk (2007 MVP) right behind him. Regardless, there isn't a single team that is more reliant on one player than the Nuggets are with Nikola Jokic. That makes him the most valuable player to his team.

Just flat out wrong and ignorant. You are literally comparing a team that just won THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP less than 24 months ago and has 4 of its 5 starters from that same team this year, and one could argue that Braun is an upgrade over KCP, to the team that LeBron dragged to the finals in 2007.

Just unbelievable the extremes you Jokic fans will go to.

It's crazy, either that title was a fluke based on weak path or the supporting cast is good enough. Most Jokic fans on this board won't acknowledge that point.

Many teams would be trash without their best player haha. I don't think OKC is a 50 win team without Shai. Imagine the Bucks without Giannis! Look at the Spurs without Wemby. What would Detroit be without Cade? The warriors without Steph (we've seen that and it was a disaster), the Twolves without Edwards? I think many Jokic fans here exclusively watch Denver, and don't realize that the wheels fall off most teams without their star player. They post these ridiculous net rating stats etc and say they are a 60 win team with Jokic (not true and has never been, unlike a young Lebron for example) and a 17 win team without him, which is laughable.

[Castle Black]

Joker's the best player in the world, but that's not what the MVP is about. If it was, Lebron would have a dozen MVP awards rather than "just" 4.

Far from a OKC homer. In fact, i find alot of their games boring. Shai is MVP. Seems like you, and alot of Jokic stans, are having trouble understanding that being the best player doesnt automatically mean you’re the MVP. Or else LeBron would have 10+. In NFL terms, im sure every NFL GM would say Mahomes is the best player in the world. That maybe true but yet he rightfully hasn’t won MVP in years. They are two totally separate arguments.

Jokic, for as great as he is and all the great stats he has put up and all the value he provides, has led his team to a disappointing season that will finish with MAYBE only 50 wins. They are an extremely up and down, weak defensive above average team with Jokic on the floor. He’s been amazing but the totality aint good enough.


You Jokic fans just need to take the L and charge it to the game. Jokic has won a MVP before when he didn’t have the best stats.

Joker's the most valuable player in the world too. He's literally both. OKC is still a Playoff team without Shai. They wouldn't be the #1 Seed obviously, but they'd still be a Playoff team nonetheless because they have a much better team, especially defensively. Take Jokic off that Denver squad and they'd fall off a cliff. They'd be in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes without him. I actually can't think of the last time the unanimous best player in the world had this weak of a supporting cast. Lebron in 2007 comes to mind, but he wasn't the best player in the world yet. He finished 5th in MVP voting that year. Kobe was 28 and in his prime, and was still widely-considered the best player in the world at that time (he won the MVP the following year), with prime Dirk (2007 MVP) right behind him. Regardless, there isn't a single team that is more reliant on one player than the Nuggets are with Nikola Jokic. That makes him the most valuable player to his team.

Just flat out wrong and ignorant. You are literally comparing a team that just won THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP less than 24 months ago and has 4 of its 5 starters from that same team this year, and one could argue that Braun is an upgrade over KCP, to the team that LeBron dragged to the finals in 2007.

Just unbelievable the extremes you Jokic fans will go to.

A.) I'm not a "Jokic fan." Nor am I a Denver fan. I'm an unbiased NBA fan who loves watching all teams play.

B.) I'm not sure how you could argue that Braun and his lower Shooting % on lower volume is better than KCP and his Higher Shooting % on higher volume, but you're free to try, and

C.) You're assuming that all 4 of those players are playing at the exact same level today that they were 2 years ago during that Title run. By that logic, Jamal Murray surely was an NBA All-Star this year and made an All-NBA Team, right..?

[Castle Black]

Joker's the most valuable player in the world too. He's literally both. OKC is still a Playoff team without Shai. They wouldn't be the #1 Seed obviously, but they'd still be a Playoff team nonetheless because they have a much better team, especially defensively. Take Jokic off that Denver squad and they'd fall off a cliff. They'd be in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes without him. I actually can't think of the last time the unanimous best player in the world had this weak of a supporting cast. Lebron in 2007 comes to mind, but he wasn't the best player in the world yet. He finished 5th in MVP voting that year. Kobe was 28 and in his prime, and was still widely-considered the best player in the world at that time (he won the MVP the following year), with prime Dirk (2007 MVP) right behind him. Regardless, there isn't a single team that is more reliant on one player than the Nuggets are with Nikola Jokic. That makes him the most valuable player to his team.

Just flat out wrong and ignorant. You are literally comparing a team that just won THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP less than 24 months ago and has 4 of its 5 starters from that same team this year, and one could argue that Braun is an upgrade over KCP, to the team that LeBron dragged to the finals in 2007.

Just unbelievable the extremes you Jokic fans will go to.

It's crazy, either that title was a fluke based on weak path or the supporting cast is good enough. Most Jokic fans on this board won't acknowledge that point.

Many teams would be trash without their best player haha. I don't think OKC is a 50 win team without Shai. Imagine the Bucks without Giannis! Look at the Spurs without Wemby. What would Detroit be without Cade? The warriors without Steph (we've seen that and it was a disaster), the Twolves without Edwards? I think many Jokic fans here exclusively watch Denver, and don't realize that the wheels fall off most teams without their star player. They post these ridiculous net rating stats etc and say they are a 60 win team with Jokic (not true and has never been, unlike a young Lebron for example) and a 17 win team without him, which is laughable.

Obviously most teams would be much worse without their star player. That's not the argument here. You're moving the goal-posts. I'm saying that OKC without Shai is still a Playoff team. Certainly not the #1 Seed and probably not even a top-4 Seed, but still a Playoff team in the West nonetheless. Without Jokic, Denver would be a lottery team. Therefore, he is more valuable to his team success. This is a pretty cut and dry argument. Joker is not only the best player in the world, but he is also more valuable to his team for this reason. Without him, Denver would be a worse team than OKC would be without Shai.

I've also already conceded that Shai is going to win the MVP because of the "best player on the best team" narrative that largely rules the NBA MVP Award Voting system, and he's had an incredible season in his own right and definitely deserves his flowers as well. Two things can be true at once.

[Castle Black]

I take solace in how many players, former players, and analysts acknowledge that Joker is the best player In the world even though Shai is going to be given the award.

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[hardenASG13]

Just flat out wrong and ignorant. You are literally comparing a team that just won THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP less than 24 months ago and has 4 of its 5 starters from that same team this year, and one could argue that Braun is an upgrade over KCP, to the team that LeBron dragged to the finals in 2007.

Just unbelievable the extremes you Jokic fans will go to.

It's crazy, either that title was a fluke based on weak path or the supporting cast is good enough. Most Jokic fans on this board won't acknowledge that point.

Many teams would be trash without their best player haha. I don't think OKC is a 50 win team without Shai. Imagine the Bucks without Giannis! Look at the Spurs without Wemby. What would Detroit be without Cade? The warriors without Steph (we've seen that and it was a disaster), the Twolves without Edwards? I think many Jokic fans here exclusively watch Denver, and don't realize that the wheels fall off most teams without their star player. They post these ridiculous net rating stats etc and say they are a 60 win team with Jokic (not true and has never been, unlike a young Lebron for example) and a 17 win team without him, which is laughable.

Obviously most teams would be much worse without their star player. That's not the argument here. You're moving the goal-posts. I'm saying that OKC without Shai is still a Playoff team. Certainly not the #1 Seed and probably not even a top-4 Seed, but still a Playoff team in the West nonetheless. Without Jokic, Denver would be a lottery team. Therefore, he is more valuable to his team success. This is a pretty cut and dry argument. Joker is not only the best player in the world, but he is also more valuable to his team for this reason. Without him, Denver would be a worse team than OKC would be without Shai.

Theres no way of knowing that though. If you replaced Jokic with an average NBA center and SGA with an average NBA guard, there's no telling how it'd play out. That's just speculation, and based on stats that encompass short sample sizes in minutes they are off the court, rotations, blowouts/garbage time, etc.

What isn't speculation is that with SGA the Thunder are having one of the best regular seasons in league history. That's pretty valuable. Jokics team is middle of the pack. Jokic has much to prove in the playoffs before you can blindly say he's the most valuable player, just like SGA does. I've never seen either of them lead their team past an equal or better team with a superstar of their own in a playoff series. Thats the type of thing that gets a guy the title of unquestioned best player. Doing it in the playoffs, repeatedly. Not beating 4 sub 45 win teams like the nuggets in 23 (with this same supporting cast). This MVP race is over, though.

[RRR3]

Joker's the most valuable player in the world too. He's literally both. OKC is still a Playoff team without Shai. They wouldn't be the #1 Seed obviously, but they'd still be a Playoff team nonetheless because they have a much better team, especially defensively. Take Jokic off that Denver squad and they'd fall off a cliff. They'd be in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes without him. I actually can't think of the last time the unanimous best player in the world had this weak of a supporting cast. Lebron in 2007 comes to mind, but he wasn't the best player in the world yet. He finished 5th in MVP voting that year. Kobe was 28 and in his prime, and was still widely-considered the best player in the world at that time (he won the MVP the following year), with prime Dirk (2007 MVP) right behind him. Regardless, there isn't a single team that is more reliant on one player than the Nuggets are with Nikola Jokic. That makes him the most valuable player to his team.

Just flat out wrong and ignorant. You are literally comparing a team that just won THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP less than 24 months ago and has 4 of its 5 starters from that same team this year, and one could argue that Braun is an upgrade over KCP, to the team that LeBron dragged to the finals in 2007.

Just unbelievable the extremes you Jokic fans will go to.

A.) I'm not a "Jokic fan." Nor am I a Denver fan. I'm an unbiased NBA fan who loves watching all teams play.

B.) I'm not sure how you could argue that Braun and his lower Shooting % on lower volume is better than KCP and his Higher Shooting % on higher volume, but you're free to try, and

C.) You're assuming that all 4 of those players are playing at the exact same level today that they were 2 years ago during that Title run. By that logic, Jamal Murray surely was an NBA All-Star this year and made an All-NBA Team, right..?

You're not unbiased if you're claiming Jokic is easily better than SGA. Nothing supports that.

[RRR3]

I take solace in how many former players acknowledge that Joker is the best player In the world even though Shai is going to win the award. Along with the number on analysts who never played that agree with this sentiment.

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How are you gonna claim to not be biased and then post **** like this?

"I take solace" seriously? SGA winning MVP is actually causing you pain?

[lethalizer]

People around here are now also claiming the Thunder would be a playoff team without Shai.

Again, pick your candidate however you want. Just don't try to build your case with hypotheticals that are, frankly, a bit dumb.

[Castle Black]

I take solace in how many former players acknowledge that Joker is the best player In the world even though Shai is going to win the award. Along with the number on analysts who never played that agree with this sentiment.

Read on Twitter

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How are you gonna claim to not be biased and then post **** like this?

"I take solace" seriously? SGA winning MVP is actually causing you pain?

Lol sorry my wording triggered you. Allow me to rephrase:

It's good to see that so many former NBA players and people that analyze the game for a living recognize that Jokic is the best player in the world and the true MVP, despite the fact that the award is going to go to SGA.*

[SpurNani]

Joker's the most valuable player in the world too. He's literally both. OKC is still a Playoff team without Shai. They wouldn't be the #1 Seed obviously, but they'd still be a Playoff team nonetheless because they have a much better team, especially defensively. Take Jokic off that Denver squad and they'd fall off a cliff. They'd be in the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes without him. I actually can't think of the last time the unanimous best player in the world had this weak of a supporting cast. Lebron in 2007 comes to mind, but he wasn't the best player in the world yet. He finished 5th in MVP voting that year. Kobe was 28 and in his prime, and was still widely-considered the best player in the world at that time (he won the MVP the following year), with prime Dirk (2007 MVP) right behind him. Regardless, there isn't a single team that is more reliant on one player than the Nuggets are with Nikola Jokic. That makes him the most valuable player to his team.

Just flat out wrong and ignorant. You are literally comparing a team that just won THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP less than 24 months ago and has 4 of its 5 starters from that same team this year, and one could argue that Braun is an upgrade over KCP, to the team that LeBron dragged to the finals in 2007.

Just unbelievable the extremes you Jokic fans will go to.

A.) I'm not a "Jokic fan." Nor am I a Denver fan. I'm an unbiased NBA fan who loves watching all teams play.

B.) I'm not sure how you could argue that Braun and his lower Shooting % on lower volume is better than KCP and his Higher Shooting % on higher volume, but you're free to try, and

C.) You're assuming that all 4 of those players are playing at the exact same level today that they were 2 years ago during that Title run. By that logic, Jamal Murray surely was an NBA All-Star this year and made an All-NBA Team, right..?

Braun is younger, a better scorer and better utility player. KCP is in his 30's, a better defender and catch n shooter from 3 but is declining and averaging his lowest ppg since his rookie season. He is apart of one of the worst offenses in the league in Orlando. One is clearly ascending and the other is declining. Also, when KCP was on Denver, I swear Jokic stans were crying about him being a non threat on offense. Now that he's gone, all of a sudden he's the missing piece. lol ironically the same thing happened when career journeyman Bruce Brown and ancient Jeff Green left the year before.

So you mean to tell me that in less then 24 months that all 3 of those Non-Jokic starters from the championship team have regressed and declined to the point to where they would be Washington Wizards bad without Joker? Do you not hear how ridiculous that sounds? It isn't like any of those guys are old either, they are all still in their 20's but I guess you want us to believe they are on their last legs 20 months later.

And I'm glad you brought up Murray, he's actually scoring this season at a career best this year. I'm glad you conceeded and actually gave him his props and acknowledged that he was at a all NBA level right alongside Jokic during that championship run. You would swear that Jokic went full 2018 Lebron and did that himself, but no, the much slandered Murray has been a good costar every playoff run alongside Jokic. Last year, he wasn't as good in the playoffs but still absolutely killed the Lakers in the first round.

[kazyv]

I take solace in how many former players acknowledge that Joker is the best player In the world even though Shai is going to win the award. Along with the number on analysts who never played that agree with this sentiment.

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How are you gonna claim to not be biased and then post **** like this?

"I take solace" seriously? SGA winning MVP is actually causing you pain?

Lol sorry my wording triggered you. Allow me to rephrase:

It's good to see that so many former NBA players and people that analyze the game for a living recognize that Jokic is the best player in the world and the true MVP, despite the fact that the award is going to go to SGA.*

opinions are like **** and everybody having one doesn't exactly prove anything. you have to be delusional, like luka fans with the "pravy MVP"-campaign last season, to think that jokic is the real MVP when all he has to show for the season over SGA are some gaudy counting stats. we have known forever to look past those.

[MarcusBrody]

People around here are now also claiming the Thunder would be a playoff team without Shai.

Again, pick your candidate however you want. Just don't try to build your case with hypotheticals that are, frankly, a bit dumb.

The reason for this is that the Thunder have a net rating that is equivalent to that of a lower playoff team. Without Shai, their net rating is still better than all but 8 teams in the League. Without Shai they are basically as good as the Nuggets are overall. Based on Net Rating, they'd be 5th in the West and 4th in the East without Shai. With Shai, they're amazing, but without him, they are playing like a clear playoff team, and that's with garbage time included in that calculation (which tends to depress the rating of the team that's up big).

The Nuggets on the other hand, have a net rating without Jokic on the court that is better than only the Wizards, Jazz, and Pelicans. That's why people suggest that the Nuggets would be in the lottery.

The difference between their team's rating without them is the same as the difference between The net rating between the Celtics and Bulls or between Houston and the 76ers.


All that being said, I do think that the Nuggets would do a bit better without Jokic than their net rating might suggest (assuming they got a real, replacement level center to replace him. They have lots of very serviceable players, they just don't work well without Jokic as Murray is the only one who can really generate his own shot (and he's inconsistent and not great at creating for others. If they were in the East, I would imagine they might make the playoffs without Jokic (at least the playin), but. do think they' d be a lottery team in the west given how high the bar for even the playin is.

[SpurNani]

I think Jokic is having the better season, but historical precedent suggests SGA should get it and I wouldn't be mad. He's having an all time season himself and would be a worthy winner unlike 2023 Embiid.

At this point, the only boost to Jokic's individual legacy will be championships. Another MVP will just open the door for haters to slander him when the Nuggets lose in the 1st round because they don't have the pieces to compete in the West. Rather have all the pressure that comes with the MVP on Shai.

um no

Jokic has the title of being "the best in the world". Regardless of if he's the MVP or not, the pressure is squarely on Jokic, especially after last years EPIC 20 pt collapse in game 7 on his home court. Even more eyes are on him now after his amazing all time season this year and expectations are higher.

if jokic goes out sad early in the playoffs again, I think many will revoke that title of him being the best in the world. Jokic has never uplifted his team in the postseason in a series they weren't supposed to win except the bubble series vs the Clippers when they were all ready to go home. Jokic has won in the playoffs with teams that were favored. But he has never done anything when the odds were against him. swept by the Suns in 21, 4-1 gentleman swept by the warriors the next year. all time collapse vs the Wolves last year.

His legion of fans will try to downplay and slander his supporting cast if they lose early in the playoffs, but there comes a point when if you are the best player, that's enough to get to the finals. I seen Lebron take his team to the finals for 10 straight years, no matter the team surrounding him or the situation because he was the best player in the league. I want to see that from Jokic this year. this is a guy they are putting on that level of player, well lets see it.

[bbms]

People around here are now also claiming the Thunder would be a playoff team without Shai.

Again, pick your candidate however you want. Just don't try to build your case with hypotheticals that are, frankly, a bit dumb.

The reason for this is that the Thunder have a net rating that is equivalent to that of a lower playoff team. Without Shai, their net rating is still better than all but 8 teams in the League.

The Nuggets on the other hand, have a net rating without Jokic on the court that is better than only the Wizards, Jazz, and Pelicans. That's why people suggest that the Nuggets would be in the lottery.

these types of arguments are very misleading. jokic plays with the end of denver's rotation way less than shai

and this is why all the serious adjusted plus minus metrics puts them neck in neck.

because when you factor in for context, both players are having the same impact.

this also leads to a discussion on how much box score stuffing is overrated by general nba discourse

i'm fine with people saying they lean to jokic because his team is worse and he elevates them. but you need to come with the honesty to say you completely disregard that shai elevate a good team to all time greatness.

because the impact is the same. just on different context.