Toronto Raptors win 2019 NBA Championship.

[Nuntius]

I'm not going to lie, I'm glad that an Eastern team won the title. Congratulations, Raptors fans.

[lobosloboslobos]

damn, Raps win the title a few days ago and there are now 9 front page threads about the Lakers. Who's the most annoying fan base on the board? it ain't us.

[BayArea408415]

The raptors were significantly better even with Klay playing. And not only playing, but playing out of his mind.
People are missing that point - the warriors needed Klay playing way over his head just to keep this series respectable. The raptors didn't benefit from any similar outsized performance.

Klay played out of his head back in the 2016 WCF as well. Hence, the Game 6 Klay reputation. His shots and touches also picked up tremendously after KD went down. I mean the guy has scored 37 in a quarter before and 60 through 3 quarters. So his NBA Finals performance wasn't something out of the realm of possibility. It was still historic nonetheless.

Anyways, I think one could argue FVV outperformed his expectations significantly. He went from averaging 6 points per game through the first 3 rounds to averaging 14 points per game in the Finals. That's more than double his previous average. Both his overall FG% and 3-point FG$% improved as well. He also hit quite a few big shots when called upon. Dude had ice in his veins.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-finals-warriors-vs-raptors.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2019.html#all_playoffs_per_game

[everdiso]

The raptors were significantly better even with Klay playing. And not only playing, but playing out of his mind.
People are missing that point - the warriors needed Klay playing way over his head just to keep this series respectable. The raptors didn't benefit from any similar outsized performance.

Klay played out of his head back in the 2016 WCF as well. Hence, the Game 6 Klay reputation. His shots and touches also picked up tremendously after KD went down. So his NBA Finals performance wasn't something out of the realm of possibility. I mean the guy has scored 37 in a quarter before. It was still historic nonetheless.

Anyways think one could argue FVV outperformed his expectations significantly. He went from averaging 6 points per game through the first 3 rounds to averaging 14 points per game in the Finals. That's more than double his previous average. Both his overall FG% and 3-point FG$% improved as well. He also hit quite a few big shots when called upon. Dude had ice in his veins.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-finals-warriors-vs-raptors.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2019.html#all_playoffs_per_game

Well you're talking just about a support player there for Toronto, and if we're looking at those guys then imo Fred and Danny just kinda balanced each other's support roles out:

Regular Season:

Danny: 63.2ts%
Fred: 53.9ts%

Finals:

Danny: 53.7ts%
Fred: 60.7ts%

With fred stealing most of Danny's starter minutes in the finals as a result.

[will]

What it doooooooooo, BAYYYBABYYYYYY

[chrismikayla]

I'm happy for Toronto, more for the city itself than just the team. As a black male living in America, Toronto seems like a city that accepts all people with open arms regardless of race, etc. It seems like a city that embraces and encourages diversity and I wouldn't mind living there.

we like friendly people. come on up! still plenty of room. also re diversity: did you know that Toronto is literally the most diverse city in the world? In the last census it showed that 48% of Torontonians were born in another country. That is an insanely high number. so you'll just be like everyone else no matter where you are from or what you look like.

That's great to hear and confirmed my thoughts about the city.

[BayArea408415]

Well you're talking just about a support player there for Toronto, and if we're looking at those guys then imo Fred and Danny just kinda balanced each other's support roles out:

Regular Season:

Danny: 63.2ts%
Fred: 53.9ts%

Finals:

Danny: 53.7ts%
Fred: 60.7ts%

With fred stealing most of Danny's starter minutes in the finals as a result.

You can call him what you want but he helped the Raptors win multiple games due to his clutch shooting. He hit quite a few back-breakers against the Warriors. No starter (outside Curry/Klay) let alone depth/bench rotation player on the Warriors stepped up above their expectations like FVV over the overall series.

[everdiso]

Well you're talking just about a support player there for Toronto, and if we're looking at those guys then imo Fred and Danny just kinda balanced each other's support roles out:

Regular Season:

Danny: 63.2ts%
Fred: 53.9ts%

Finals:

Danny: 53.7ts%
Fred: 60.7ts%

With fred stealing most of Danny's starter minutes in the finals as a result.

You can call him what you want but he helped the Raptors win multiple games due to his clutch shooting. He hit quite a few back-breakers against the Warriors. No starter (outside Curry/Klay) let alone depth/bench rotation player on the Warriors stepped up above their expectations like FVV over the overall series.

nah, the clear outlier of all in the series was Klay and his hilarious 70+ true shooting percentage. just a ridiculous and unsustainable number. any argument that the warriors would have been significantly better if he had stayed healthy rests on the questionable assumption that he could stay anywhere remotely near that hot.

Fred moved from 14.3pts/36 in the regular season to 15.6pts/36 in the finals, not really all that much difference aside from playing time, and that was more than balanced out by Danny's fall from 13.3pts/36 to 9.7pts/36.

Danny/Fred

RegSeas: 56.2mpg, 21.3pts (43.3fg%)
Finals: 59.6mpg, 21.3pts (42.3fg%)

[VinBaker6]

I'm gonna be so insufferable on here

[BayArea408415]

nah, the clear outlier of all in the series was Klay and his hilarious 70+ true shooting percentage. just a ridiculous and unsustainable number. any argument that the warriors would have been significantly better if he had stayed healthy rests on the questionable assumption that he could stay anywhere remotely near that hot.

So, you're essentially suggesting a star player (one of the GOAT shooters) stepped up above expectations and that's the only reason the series almost went 7 with only 12 minutes of Durant? I could have sworn that was the point of a star? To rise above expectations/carry a team when called upon. It doesn't always happen of course but it should at some point no?

Anyways, Klay was that hot over the course of the 5 games he played in (other than time when he was injured). That's a fair sample size considering the series went 6 games. It's certainly reasonable to suggest he could do it for 1-2 more games. In fact, if the Warriors won Game 6 (and he doesn't get injured), it would require him to only do it one more time. Not to mention he had already done something similar before between Games 5-7 of the 2016 WCF against OKC. Hence, the whole "Game 6 Klay" reference.

I mean even a guy like Danny Green played way above his head in the 2013 NBA Finals as a starting support/role player and Klay is a significantly better player than him. These things happen. Just like injuries.

Fred moved from 14.3pts/36 in the regular season to 15.6pts/36 in the finals, not really all that much difference aside from playing time, and that was more than balanced out by Danny's fall from 13.3pts/36 to 9.7pts/36.

Danny/Fred

RegSeas: 56.2mpg, 21.3pts (43.3fg%)
Finals: 59.6mpg, 21.3pts (42.3fg%)

Is it really fair to compare NBA Finals stats to the regular season? The playoffs have a much higher level of competition, teams game-plan better and there is undoubtedly more pressure in the playoffs. I was under the impression most players would regress under these circumstances. Not maintain the same level of performance or actually improve.

[everdiso]

[

nah, the clear outlier of all in the series was Klay and his hilarious 70+ true shooting percentage. just a ridiculous and unsustainable number. any argument that the warriors would have been significantly better if he had stayed healthy rests on the questionable assumption that he could stay anywhere remotely near that hot.

So, you're essentially saying a star player (one of the GOAT shooters) stepped up above expectations and that's the only reason the series almost went 7 with only 12 minutes of Durant? I could have sworn that was the point of a star? To rise above expectations/carry a team when called upon.

Anyways, Klay was that hot over the course of 5 games he played in. That's a fair sample size considering the series went 6 games. It's certainly reasonable to suggest he could do it for 1-2 more games. If the Warriors won Game 6, it would require him to only do it one more time. Not to mention he had already done something similar before between Games 5-7 of the 2016 WCF against OKC. Hence, the whole "Game 6 Klay" reference.

I mean even a guy like Danny Green played way above his head in the 2013 NBA Finals as a starting support/role player and Klay is a significantly better player than him.

Fred moved from 14.3pts/36 in the regular season to 15.6pts/36 in the finals, not really all that much difference aside from playing time, and that was more than balanced out by Danny's fall from 13.3pts/36 to 9.7pts/36.

Danny/Fred

RegSeas: 56.2mpg, 21.3pts (43.3fg%)
Finals: 59.6mpg, 21.3pts (42.3fg%)

Is it really fair to compare NBA Finals stats to the regular season? The playoffs have a much higher level of competition, teams gameplan better and there is undoubtedly more pressure in the playoffs. I was under the impression most players regress under these circumstances. Not maintain the same level of performance or actually improve.

the series didn't "almost go 7", it "barely went 6".

The warriors lost 3 games handily, and managed to keep 3gms close (within 5pts - 2 of which they managed to win). Klay's unsustainable superhuman performance was the reason they managed to keep those 3gms close.

Overall, the Raps were the significantly better team, even with Klay playing way over his head.

[BayArea408415]

the series didn't "almost go 7", it "barely went 6".

It was 111-110 and the Warriors took the final shot in Game 6. Doesn't get any closer than that. A win is a win. Doesn't matter whether it's a 1 point or 13 point margin. I'd add the Warriors two best players (without Durant) are both jump shooters. This can cause wild variation in margins based on whether they are shooting well or shooting poorly.

The warriors lost 3 games handily, and managed to keep 3gms close (within 5pts - 2 of which they managed to win). Klay's unsustainable superhuman performance was the reason they managed to keep those 3gms close.

Handily or not:
Game 1 - Yes
Game 2 - No; Raptors only came back from a double digit deficit after Klay went down.
Game 3 - No Klay and Durant; Warriors put out a team that might not even make the playoffs or 6-8 seed at best; are you counting this?
Game 4 - Yes
Game 5 - No but 12 minutes of Durant
Game 6 - No and no Klay for 14 minutes to end the game.

I count 2 games. Which one was the 3rd? An all-star and GOAT shooter played above his head so those wins shouldn't count as making the series nearly go 7? Is that what you're arguing here?

Overall, the Raps were the significantly better team, even with Klay playing way over his head.

Because 2 double digit wins? I mean you're not honestly counting the game 3 where the Warriors had no Durant and Klay right? That team would arguably get swept by the Rockets, Bucks, Sixers and Raptors. It was this same no Durant/no Klay team that the Raptors faced during the final 14 minutes of Game 6.

[everdiso]

All Playoff Series Ranked by netrating:

MIL +23.5 over DET (4-0)
TOR +15.7 over ORL (4-1)
PHI +10.0 over BKN (4-1)
HOU +9.1 over UTA (4-1)
GSW +9.0 over LAC (4-2)
MIL +8.8 over BOS (4-1)
GSW +8.1 over POR (4-0)
BOS +7.8 over IND (4-0)
TOR +5.7 over GSW (4-2)
POR +5.5 over OKL (4-1)
TOR +2.7 over PHI (4-3)
DEN +2.3 over SAS (4-3)
GSW +2.1 over HOU (4-2)
TOR +1.0 over MIL (4-2)
POR -2.0 over DEN (4-3)


the netrating in the finals was more reminiscient of a 5gm series than a 6-7gm series.

Tons of credit to the warriors for using every ounce of their championship experience and heart to make the series competitive, but the play in the series actually wasn't all that close.

[BayArea408415]

All Playoff Series Ranked by netrating:

MIL +23.5 over DET (4-0)
TOR +15.7 over ORL (4-1)
PHI +10.0 over BKN (4-1)
HOU +9.1 over UTA (4-1)
GSW +9.0 over LAC (4-2)
MIL +8.8 over BOS (4-1)
GSW +8.1 over POR (4-0)
BOS +7.8 over IND (4-0)
TOR +5.7 over GSW (4-2)
POR +5.5 over OKL (4-1)
TOR +2.7 over PHI (4-3)
DEN +2.3 over SAS (4-3)
GSW +2.1 over HOU (4-2)
TOR +1.0 over MIL (4-2)
POR -2.0 over DEN (4-3)


the netrating in the finals was more reminiscient of a 5gm series than a 6-7gm series.

Tons of credit to the warriors for using every ounce of their championship experience and heart to make the series competitive, but the play in the series actually wasn't all that close.

This includes Game 3 with no Klay and Durant I presume? I was expecting a 30 point blowout. I was surprised the game stayed within 7-16 points. How do the stats look without this game and if you control for the additional other 22 minutes (Game 2 and Game 6) that Klay missed?

Because, you can't use these games/minutes in an argument where the Raptors handily beat the Warriors even with Klay playing. You would have no ground to stand on.

[everdiso]

All Playoff Series Ranked by netrating:

MIL +23.5 over DET (4-0)
TOR +15.7 over ORL (4-1)
PHI +10.0 over BKN (4-1)
HOU +9.1 over UTA (4-1)
GSW +9.0 over LAC (4-2)
MIL +8.8 over BOS (4-1)
GSW +8.1 over POR (4-0)
BOS +7.8 over IND (4-0)
TOR +5.7 over GSW (4-2)
POR +5.5 over OKL (4-1)
TOR +2.7 over PHI (4-3)
DEN +2.3 over SAS (4-3)
GSW +2.1 over HOU (4-2)
TOR +1.0 over MIL (4-2)
POR -2.0 over DEN (4-3)


the netrating in the finals was more reminiscient of a 5gm series than a 6-7gm series.

Tons of credit to the warriors for using every ounce of their championship experience and heart to make the series competitive, but the play in the series actually wasn't all that close.

This includes Game 3 with no Klay and Durant I presume? I was expecting a 30 point blowout. I was surprised the game stayed within 7-16 points. How do the stats look without this game? Because, you can't use it an argument where the Raptors handily beat the Warriors even with Klay playing.

Gm1: TOR +9.3
Gm2: GSW +6.0
Gm3: TOR +14.1
Gm4: TOR +14.9
Gm5: GSW +3.5
Gm6: TOR +5.3


3 games won handily by Toronto, 3 games kept close, with GSW using every ounce of their championship pedigree to clutch two of those out.

[BayArea408415]

Gm1: TOR +9.3
Gm2: GSW +6.0
Gm3: TOR +14.1
Gm4: TOR +14.9
Gm5: GSW +3.5
Gm6: TOR +5.3


3 games won handily by Toronto, 3 games kept close, with GSW using every ounce of their championship pedigree to clutch two of those out.

This is like the 2nd or 3rd time I'm asking. Why is Game 3 being included or even the final 14 minutes of Game 6 that Klay didn't play? The Warriors without both Klay and Durant likely get swept by the Raptors yet the "no Klay" time is being included in the net rating/margins to support your argument. I was under the impression we were comparing the series when Klay actually played.

Also, the net rating/margins of Game 6 probably even include the meaningless "timeout" tech and FT's (after game was over) at the end of Game 6 too no? Kawhi went to the basket to score instead of just running out the clock with like 0.9 seconds left and Iguodala decided to foul him because of it.

As far as I'm aware, Game 3 and the time that Klay didn't play (in Games 2 or Game 6) is inflating the net rating in favor of the Raptors. If it isn't, explain to me why that's not the case.

[newsletter]

The Raptors weren't supposed to BE here. They were supposed to a 4th seed. They were supposed to lose against Philly, wait no.. Milwaukee... Wait!

[Cobra Kawhi]

damn, Raps win the title a few days ago and there are now 9 front page threads about the Lakers. Who's the most annoying fan base on the board? it ain't us.

ESPN and other outlets were just dying for something like that. They have no interest in covering us. Stephen A Smith looked like his family was being held ransom and was forced to cover and praise us. Deep down that dude was wishing to god GS,LA or even the Knicks were in our position right now.


Ramona Shelbourne, Beadle, Skip, etc...the list goes on.

The only dude who showed any interest was actually Max Kellerman

[Chuck Everett]

Great thing about Toronto winning is the fans no longer have the belief that they "can't win" the title. If you build a strong enough squad, you absolutely can get it done.

[JAYZGOAT]

damn, Raps win the title a few days ago and there are now 9 front page threads about the Lakers. Who's the most annoying fan base on the board? it ain't us.

I've said it before and people take offense to it but most people just don't care about the Raps winning it all in the states. Seriously. It might be one of the most forgettable championship runs in a while... In the states. People just wanted to see GS lose, they didn't care who did it.