NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

Bob8 · Post #781 » by **Bob8** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 2:42 am

Embiid and Zion should go up, because their teams won tonight.

grumpysaddle · Post #782 » by **grumpysaddle** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 3:23 am

With the absolute misery that is Phoenix Suns basketball post-Booker injury, Devin needs to be high up on that MVP list for keeping this sorry excuse for a team near the top of the conference for as long as he played.

Cubbies2120 · Post #783 » by **Cubbies2120** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 4:16 am

Packbuckman wrote:
_NoMas wrote:
JayMKE wrote:
Jokic fans are so attached to this narrative they gatekeep it

Jrue and Khris have both missed time and not looked good when they have played, Portis/Lopez are streaky bigs and Allen/Carter aren't starters anywhere in the league. This isn't close to a playoff team without Giannis, its would probably be the worst team in the league if Giannis went done, I would not bother watching the games.

They’re 4-1 without Giannis (and with Middleton missing those games too). I can assure you they would not be the worst team in the league without Giannis

Who did they play in those gms they won without Giannis they sure weren’t playoff teams and those gms were at the beginning of the year when they could shoot a little bit and jrue was playing pretty good so not the worst but not very good either.

The Nuggets last year beat the literal worst team in the league, and the 4th worst team in the league without Jokic. They lost to everyone else without him.

The Bucks without Giannis (but with Jrue/Middleton) make the playoffs in the East this year.

The Nuggets without Jokic last year would have been a bottom 3 team in the league.

Cubbies2120 · Post #784 » by **Cubbies2120** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 4:17 am

Bob8 wrote:Embiid and Zion should go up, because their teams won tonight.

That would be on brand for Sixers fans who loved using team record for Embiid as an argument over Jokic last year, when Jokic actually played in more wins... :lol:

Embiid's stock rises when he's in a suit on the bench

dygaction · Post #785 » by **dygaction** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 4:19 am

Bob8 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
If you really believe that Luka is in the same group as Michell, Embiid...you should put big money on them, your return will be huge.

https://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/mvp/

Luka is in the same group as Embiid, Giannis, Tatum and KD...Mitchell is gaining steam but is with the Ja’s of the world.

But I’m not betting on an opinion contest when MJ doesn’t have 10 MVPs and Shaq doesn’t have 3 and Nash has 2 and Lebron only has 4...

And why is he in the same group, if his counting and advaced stats are few levels better? And why is Jokic in front? Because he has 1 win more?

Why do you think Vegas and other bookies have him in the first place? Because gamblers like overweighted Slovenians?

Because he is still watching the competition through Trae's filter and hoping Tatum can somehow suppress Luka. Dude uses "monstrous stats and games in the past 7" to brush Luka, Embiid, Mitchell, and Giannis under the same carpet but ignore that Mavs were 7w-0l while Bucks were 3w-4l. 76ers have been winning at a higher rate without Embiid 6w-3l than having him 17w-11l. Not saying that Luka will eventually win it, but he is clearly ahead of Embiid and Tatum rn.

Packbuckman · Post #786 » by **Packbuckman** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 4:25 am

Cubbies2120 wrote:
Packbuckman wrote:
_NoMas wrote:
They’re 4-1 without Giannis (and with Middleton missing those games too). I can assure you they would not be the worst team in the league without Giannis

Who did they play in those gms they won without Giannis they sure weren’t playoff teams and those gms were at the beginning of the year when they could shoot a little bit and jrue was playing pretty good so not the worst but not very good either.

The Nuggets last year beat the literal worst team in the league, and the 4th worst team in the league without Jokic. They lost to everyone else without him.

The Bucks without Giannis (but with Jrue/Middleton) make the playoffs in the East this year.

The Nuggets without Jokic last year would have been a bottom 3 team in the league.

Have you seen this team shoot this year Middleton hasn’t even played and jrue has missed a lot of time. They barely beat a team with Giannis having 30-21-10 gm no way on earth they make the playoffs without Giannis

CobraCommander · Post #787 » by **CobraCommander** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 4:55 am

dygaction wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:Luka is in the same group as Embiid, Giannis, Tatum and KD...Mitchell is gaining steam but is with the Ja’s of the world.

But I’m not betting on an opinion contest when MJ doesn’t have 10 MVPs and Shaq doesn’t have 3 and Nash has 2 and Lebron only has 4...

And why is he in the same group, if his counting and advaced stats are few levels better? And why is Jokic in front? Because he has 1 win more?

Why do you think Vegas and other bookies have him in the first place? Because gamblers like overweighted Slovenians?

Because he is still watching the competition through Trae's filter and hoping Tatum can somehow suppress Luka. Dude uses "monstrous stats and games in the past 7" to brush Luka, Embiid, Mitchell, and Giannis under the same carpet but ignore that Mavs were 7w-0l while Bucks were 3w-4l. 76ers have been winning at a higher rate without Embiid 6w-3l than having him 17w-11l. Not saying that Luka will eventually win it, but he is clearly ahead of Embiid and Tatum rn.

Y’all want Luka to be on another level so bad that y’all can’t even see he is just like 6 other guys - no better and no worse (except defensively lol)

I recognize Luka is a great but I also don’t think his 60 pt game was any better than Embiids or Giannis games and it was not as good at Mitchell’s-

Tatum is a much better defender and his team was winning more and he plays for the BOSTON Celtics - that gives him the same boost a laker gets that a Mav or a buck or a nugget doesn’t get -

No one objectively sees Luka as MJ… he is one of many… not the best and not the worse… stop seeing one guy and acknowledge the other great players

CobraCommander · Post #788 » by **CobraCommander** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 5:03 am

Packbuckman wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
Packbuckman wrote:
Who did they play in those gms they won without Giannis they sure weren’t playoff teams and those gms were at the beginning of the year when they could shoot a little bit and jrue was playing pretty good so not the worst but not very good either.

The Nuggets last year beat the literal worst team in the league, and the 4th worst team in the league without Jokic. They lost to everyone else without him.

The Bucks without Giannis (but with Jrue/Middleton) make the playoffs in the East this year.

The Nuggets without Jokic last year would have been a bottom 3 team in the league.

Have you seen this team shoot this year Middleton hasn’t even played and jrue has missed a lot of time. They barely beat a team with Giannis having 30-21-10 gm no way on earth they make the playoffs without Giannis

They lost to wiz by double digits without Giannis and then won by 20 with him… I guess that means Giannis is an impact player?

Bob8 · Post #789 » by **Bob8** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 8:52 am

Cubbies2120 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:Embiid and Zion should go up, because their teams won tonight.

That would be on brand for Sixers fans who loved using team record for Embiid as an argument over Jokic last year, when Jokic actually played in more wins...

Embiid's stock rises when he's in a suit on the bench

No, that's normal thinking here. We hear all the time how someone should be higher because his team has won more. Who cares, if some wins are without them.

Bob8 · Post #790 » by **Bob8** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 9:12 am

CobraCommander wrote:
dygaction wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
And why is he in the same group, if his counting and advaced stats are few levels better? And why is Jokic in front? Because he has 1 win more?

Why do you think Vegas and other bookies have him in the first place? Because gamblers like overweighted Slovenians?

Because he is still watching the competition through Trae's filter and hoping Tatum can somehow suppress Luka. Dude uses "monstrous stats and games in the past 7" to brush Luka, Embiid, Mitchell, and Giannis under the same carpet but ignore that Mavs were 7w-0l while Bucks were 3w-4l. 76ers have been winning at a higher rate without Embiid 6w-3l than having him 17w-11l. Not saying that Luka will eventually win it, but he is clearly ahead of Embiid and Tatum rn.

Y’all want Luka to be on another level so bad that y’all can’t even see he is just like 6 other guys - no better and no worse (except defensively lol)

I recognize Luka is a great but I also don’t think his 60 pt game was any better than Embiids or Giannis games and it was not as good at Mitchell’s-

Tatum is a much better defender and his team was winning more and he plays for the BOSTON Celtics - that gives him the same boost a laker gets that a Mav or a buck or a nugget doesn’t get -

No one objectively sees Luka as MJ… he is one of many… not the best and not the worse… stop seeing one guy and acknowledge the other great players

Let's compare him to Tatum, your second best player. Stats, you were using to prove your point in the past, show he's better in everything, advanced stats a lot better.

https://stathead.com/tiny/o8hgZ

Jokic is the only player with comparable season to Luka. Anything can change of course. I doubt very much that Luka can play the whole RS with that usage doing what he's doing now. He's the whole system, it's become normal for him to play the whole second half and has to work hard in D too. Mavs are playing RS like it's playoffs already, all games close. His body won't last that kind of stress.

mediocrityrules · Post #791 » by **mediocrityrules** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 9:31 am

This is what you call gravity...

Mick Dundee · Post #792 » by **Mick Dundee** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 10:11 am

_NoMas · Post #793 » by **_NoMas** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 10:21 am

mediocrityrules wrote:This is what you call gravity...

Nah, apparently ONLY Steph has gravity…

Cubbies2120 · Post #794 » by **Cubbies2120** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 1:37 pm

Packbuckman wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
Packbuckman wrote:
Who did they play in those gms they won without Giannis they sure weren’t playoff teams and those gms were at the beginning of the year when they could shoot a little bit and jrue was playing pretty good so not the worst but not very good either.

The Nuggets last year beat the literal worst team in the league, and the 4th worst team in the league without Jokic. They lost to everyone else without him.

The Bucks without Giannis (but with Jrue/Middleton) make the playoffs in the East this year.

The Nuggets without Jokic last year would have been a bottom 3 team in the league.

Have you seen this team shoot this year Middleton hasn’t even played and jrue has missed a lot of time. They barely beat a team with Giannis having 30-21-10 gm no way on earth they make the playoffs without Giannis

Without Jrue/Khris/Giannis yea of course they miss the playoffs.

With Jrue/Khris though they make the playoffs

Ron Swanson · Post #795 » by **Ron Swanson** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 2:38 pm

Lol, tell me you haven't watched any Bucks games this year without telling me you haven't watched any Bucks games this year. Giannis has been dragging a roster filled with zero play-makers and a bunch of rookies/G-league dudes comprising half the rotation (AJ Green, Mamukaleshvili, Carter, Beauchamp, Nwora) the last several weeks. Khris Middleton has missed all but the entirety of the season so far, and Holiday's even missed 11-games already. He's quite literally pulling a Jokic this year with the MASH unit he's had to prop up, but I get it, he won't get nearly enough credit for it because he's not leading the league in RAPTOR, EPM, or whatever noisy lineup data metric we all think is the only important thing for MVP credentials these days.

mcfly1204 · Post #796 » by **mcfly1204** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 3:02 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Lol, tell me you haven't watched any Bucks games this year without telling me you haven't watched any Bucks games this year. Giannis has been dragging a roster filled with zero play-makers and a bunch of rookies/G-league dudes comprising half the rotation (AJ Green, Mamukaleshvili, Carter, Beauchamp, Nwora) the last several weeks. Khris Middleton has missed all but the entirety of the season so far, and Holiday's even missed 11-games already. He's quite literally pulling a Jokic this year with the MASH unit he's had to prop up, but I get it, he won't get nearly enough credit for it because he's not leading the league in RAPTOR, EPM, or whatever noisy lineup data metric we all think is the only important thing for MVP credentials these days.

The Bucks are 20th in the league in scoring. Without Giannis, and even with Kris and Jrue, it does not feel like a stretch to think they'd be the lowest scoring team in the league.

LessEyeTest · Post #797 » by **LessEyeTest** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 3:54 pm

Jokic, Luka, Tatum, Giannis (looking past his down season advanced metrics), Durant.

Nobody else deserves to be in the discussion.

CobraCommander · Post #798 » by **CobraCommander** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 3:56 pm

Bob8 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:
dygaction wrote:
Because he is still watching the competition through Trae's filter and hoping Tatum can somehow suppress Luka. Dude uses "monstrous stats and games in the past 7" to brush Luka, Embiid, Mitchell, and Giannis under the same carpet but ignore that Mavs were 7w-0l while Bucks were 3w-4l. 76ers have been winning at a higher rate without Embiid 6w-3l than having him 17w-11l. Not saying that Luka will eventually win it, but he is clearly ahead of Embiid and Tatum rn.

Y’all want Luka to be on another level so bad that y’all can’t even see he is just like 6 other guys - no better and no worse (except defensively lol)

I recognize Luka is a great but I also don’t think his 60 pt game was any better than Embiids or Giannis games and it was not as good at Mitchell’s-

Tatum is a much better defender and his team was winning more and he plays for the BOSTON Celtics - that gives him the same boost a laker gets that a Mav or a buck or a nugget doesn’t get -

No one objectively sees Luka as MJ… he is one of many… not the best and not the worse… stop seeing one guy and acknowledge the other great players

Let's compare him to Tatum, your second best player. Stats, you were using to prove your point in the past, show he's better in everything, advanced stats a lot better.

https://stathead.com/tiny/o8hgZ

Jokic is the only player with comparable season to Luka. Anything can change of course. I doubt very much that Luka can play the whole RS with that usage doing what he's doing now. He's the whole system, it's become normal for him to play the whole second half and has to work hard in D too. Mavs are playing RS like it's playoffs already, all games close. His body won't last that kind of stress.

Bob- I’m not saying Tatum is the second best player -

I said he is (or was) second in MVP voting because he is a great two way, on best team in league, previously in finals, had great stats and IS PLAYING in BOSTON. I’m not saying Tatum is second best in world. I think objectively, Giannis is second to Jokic and after that there are a bunch of guys that include Luka that can be considered right below Jokic and Giannis…

Embiid, Luka, Curry, healthy AD, KD… and to to a lesser degree Zion, Ja, Mitchell, Booker, Siakim, butler etc etc etc… the league is stacked-

And Curry, KD and AD healthy are definitely serious threats on any given day to be the best player on earth as proven by them winning rings…

I don’t want you to misunderstand me- i don’t care who wins because there are 5-6 worthy candidates at this point.

It’s a fun debate but I have no damn idea who is going to or even who should win! I think jokic but…

CobraCommander · Post #799 » by **CobraCommander** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 4:15 pm

LessEyeTest wrote:Jokic, Luka, Tatum, Giannis (looking past his down season advanced metrics), Durant.

Nobody else deserves to be in the discussion.

Not even Embiid ?

Not a healthy Curry or AD?

Ron Swanson · Post #800 » by **Ron Swanson** » Thu Jan 5, 2023 4:17 pm

mediocrityrules wrote:This is what you call gravity...

What's funny is this has been the story of the season, but it's been especially eye-popping the last 10-games:

https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612749/shots-dash?LastNGames=10

Generating 37 open or wide open 3PT attempts per game and his teammates are hitting them at a sub-33% rate lol. Giannis' play-making/passing isn't at Jokic's level (who is, really?), but passing/play-making still relies on your teammates actually making shots.

Who is your current NBA MVP? (listed alphabetically)