Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA

[Ell Curry]

It's interesting how this discussion shows another real bias in basketball, which is anti-defense.

How many white perimeter players in the NBA are not below average defensively? The top white point guards according to PER are Nash, Calderon, Dragic and Fredette. Dragic is decent on D, but the other 3 dudes are all serious liabilities. But does anyone argue that only black guys play D? All those guys are seen as team players (Except maybe Jimmer) but that's only on one end of the floor.

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Re: Race and Lebron, I do think that if he was white, people would recognize more the fact that he's now maybe the smartest guy in the league on offense and he's honed his skills and improved at an age where most players stop developing. He takes only good shots, is a much better outside shooter and is the greatest passer of all time at his position (if he's a 4. If he's a 3, he still cracks the top 2 along with Bird). If he was a white guy, people would think of him more as an incredibly smart, hard-working guy and not just some superhero.

[EzeDoesIt]

Him pointing out the "me first" approach as compared to the team approach is certainly dead on. I guess the only thing that should anger anybody is the part where he divides it into Black and White.

His philosophy about the destructive and unsatisfactory nature of the selfish approach is pretty dead on. Too bad rap music wont let dumbass kids see through that soon enough.

There's plenty of constructive rap music/ rappers out there. I always laugh when people who are ignorant on the subject bash hip hop.

[Roddy B for 3]

Broad generalizations are bad, regardless of the intent. PEACE.

it's inefficient to talk around every exception and to account for every possibility.

Green font? Its "inefficient" to sterotype ppl at all. Its "inefficient" to your growth as a human being to assume things about people you don't know.

[Johnlac1]

talking about selfish players is one thing, and warranted if he sees fit.

talking about blacks being selfish players is where he went wrong imo.

Blacks are selfish one on one players because they are more athletic and dynamic than everyone else.

Like I said...Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Jordan

When the last time you ever seen an explosive athletic one on one White American Basketball Player...that could really just dominate a game?

I haven't seen one...since like IDK Pistol Pete

And guess what they said about Pistol Pete...he played like a Black player...and that was long long long time ago.

It's just true.

I remember reading an article many years ago written by some white writer comparing Maravich and Oscar Robertson. Robertson might have been the least flashy, great player ever, while Maravich might have been the all-time, basketball hot dog. The writer (can't remember his name) greatly preferred Maravich's style of play over Robertson's. Let me say as a fan of both, I'd much rather have Robertson. The greatest example of substance over style ever.

[Roddy B for 3]

Nothing is wrong with generalizations...^

People are just sensitve these days to anything and everything like some females.

My brother!
I blame b****s too

[Roddy B for 3]

definitely not something you would see or hear today.

Disappointed he said this in the past, but it was a different time. Doesnt make it alright, but it makes it more understandable.

Uh it's true.

Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tracy Mcgrady, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony - all fancy supremely talented one on one players that took a crap load of time to be a "team player."

Just like Black quarterback tend to use their athleticism to win games over staying in the pocket.

It's just true.

Blacks are more dynamic and explosive athletes than White athletes and they get by on it in team sports.

See Michael Vick, see Allen Iverson, see Tracy Mcgrady, see MJ before Phil came along, see Lebron James before he hits his supreme prime and started using his body and post ups.

White athletes tend to focus more on their skill to compensate for a lack of explosive athleticism...

see Tom Brady, see Dirk Nowitski, see Larry Bird, see Steve Nash...

Phil Jackson made a true as hell observation.

This is fair. Its not a selfish thing, its taking advantage of your natural gifts.

[Frank Mulely]

I think it's silly to state there's no great white athletes, but the reality is that the ones that exist play football or other sports. Honestly it seems like white americans have just given up on hoops.

[Illmatic21]

talking about selfish players is one thing, and warranted if he sees fit.

talking about blacks being selfish players is where he went wrong imo.

Blacks are selfish one on one players because they are more athletic and dynamic than everyone else.

Like I said...Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Jordan

When the last time you ever seen an explosive athletic one on one White American Basketball Player...that could really just dominate a game?

I haven't seen one...since like IDK Pistol Pete

And guess what they said about Pistol Pete...he played like a Black player...and that was long long long time ago.

It's just true.

Uhh.. do you not watch college basketball? Jimmer Fredette, Adam Morrison, JJ Redick, etc. Those guys were not team players at ALL in college, they were straight up chuckers who dominated games with individual scoring. Hell, look at the guy who scored 100+ points.. he was literally just jacking up shots while his teammates were standing around watching.

There are plenty of white 1-on-1 players, the difference is that they generally aren't able to make it to the NBA (often due to lack of size or elite athleticism) so you don't hear about them. Either that, or they are forced to adapt their playing style in order to survive in the league.

If you're going to be a 1-on-1 player at the highest level, you better be a supreme athlete as well. That filters out a lot of guys. And that doesn't just go by race, I could name plenty of black 1-on-1 scorers who simply weren't athletically gifted enough for the NBA.

[eagereyez]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

Who shouts white power, and what is ALWAYS their message? But of course it's the fault of black people why if you shout white power you'll be perceived a certain way... I mean some people are just so dim, but they think they are making some sort of relevant point.

So because there was one group of racists in America who used to shout a phrase, so that automatically means no one else can shout it without sounding racist? Pretty profound stuff I'm learning on the realGM board today. Can you also explain why it's ok to learn about Malcolm X's reverse racism in school and to celebrate him as a leader of the Black Rights movement, when he was every bit as racist against whites as the whites were to him? You can also tell me why it's ok to make a movie with the title "White Guys Can't Jump", and no one gets upset about that, but I'd like to see if you honestly believe nothing would happen if a movie with the title "Black Guys Can't Think" or "Black Guys Can't Throw" was ever released.

[jdub114]

I remember reading an article by Scoop Jackson about different racially charged comments from Phil and it always left a bad taste in my mouth, but what he says here is true for the most part.

It can be black and white, but it could also boil down to class. In the inner city there's a dog eat dog mentality. Everyone wants to make it out the hood, and be that savior that takes everyone with them. That mentality translates to the playing field. I've seen it growing up and been a victim to it. Even to the mentality of thinking the NBA is the greatest achievement possible. Now as an adult, I can see NBA players for what they are: just basketball players. It would be nice to be lauded like them and have their money, but they're not changing the world or the way people think (aside from the theme of hard work).

What hood did Kobe grow up in?

What's your point? Does Kobe's trigger finger invalidate everything I said? Does Pete Maravich's and Rick Barry's shot happy style of play invalidate everything that Phil Jackson said?

Or did you really wanna know where Kobe grew up?

[eagereyez]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

Why would you need to shout White Power anyway? And why whites want to use the N word because they see blacks getting away with saying it?

If blacks were the majority and controlled this country from the beginning of time I'm pretty sure you would get to say White Power all you want if you wasn't treated like a human being until 60 years ago. YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT HUH BUDDY.

You strike me as the person who says... Why is there a BET channel but not a WET channel. I suggest you to google and find out!

As for the white man can't jump stereotype. It's no different from when black people say white guys can hit an open jump shot(bet you don't have a problem with that one) or when people say black folks can't swim.

Was there a movie made titled "Whites guys can hit an open jump shot" or "Black guys can't swim"? No, there wasn't. You clearly didn't understand my point at all. Obviously there are stereotypes about every ethnicity in America, but only the negative ones about White people are allowed to be perpetrated by the media today. I remember seeing outrages in the media because an advertisement for one of the elementary schools in my area had a black kid hanging from the monkey bars.

Also yes, can you explain to me why there is a BET channel? Why is there also a Black history month? It makes no sense, Black history is American history. Creating divides like this just strengthen barriers.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s[/youtube]

[Neutral 123]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

Who shouts white power, and what is ALWAYS their message? But of course it's the fault of black people why if you shout white power you'll be perceived a certain way... I mean some people are just so dim, but they think they are making some sort of relevant point.

So because there was one group of racists in America who used to shout a phrase, so that automatically means no one else can shout it without sounding racist? Pretty profound stuff I'm learning on the realGM board today. Can you also explain why it's ok to learn about Malcolm X's reverse racism in school and to celebrate him as a leader of the Black Rights movement, when he was every bit as racist against whites as the whites were to him? You can also tell me why it's ok to make a movie with the title "White Guys Can't Jump", and no one gets upset about that, but I'd like to see if you honestly believe nothing would happen if a movie with the title "Black Guys Can't Think" or "Black Guys Can't Throw" was ever released.

You are trying so hard to make yourself a victim of something that just isn't there. You can celebrate your culture. If you shout out white power, it will be looked at strangely. The only history shouting that has is with racists. Hell, even the phrase black power is associated with more extreme civil rights movement. So someone shouting that would be looked at as being more radical. You are just whining over nothing. It's pathetic. Go look up the definition of the word 'intent' and that might give you some idea of why certain things will be perceived as harmless and others not. Why do you want to shout white power? Bunch of weirdos...

[Ziggy Stardust]

If your main and most consistent evidence of racism and double standards against white people is based on a 20 year old movie staring Woody Harrelson called White guys can't jump then you might have to stop and think about why you're arguing.

Especially when that movie showed that white guys can indeed jump.

[Baseline Runner]

This is why you can't have a civil discussion about this sort of thing because it always gets derailed by people bringing up racism. This thread, and what Phil wrote, wasn't about racism, sociology, or anything else, it was about basketball and different styles of play. Now if you want to debate and say that Phil was wrong, that black players are just as good or even better team players than white players, such as Magic Johnson for instance, and that white players can break ankles too, like Manu Ginobili, now that is a good debate. But save the racism stuff for somewhere else, nobody wants to hear it.

[eagereyez]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

So because there was one group of racists in America who used to shout a phrase, so that automatically means no one else can shout it without sounding racist? Pretty profound stuff I'm learning on the realGM board today. Can you also explain why it's ok to learn about Malcolm X's reverse racism in school and to celebrate him as a leader of the Black Rights movement, when he was every bit as racist against whites as the whites were to him? You can also tell me why it's ok to make a movie with the title "White Guys Can't Jump", and no one gets upset about that, but I'd like to see if you honestly believe nothing would happen if a movie with the title "Black Guys Can't Think" or "Black Guys Can't Throw" was ever released.

You are trying so hard to make yourself a victim of something that just isn't there. You can celebrate your culture. If you shout out white power, it will be looked at strangely. The only history shouting that has is with racists. Hell, even the phrase black power is associated with more extreme civil rights movement. So someone shouting that would be looked at as being more radical. You are just whining over nothing. It's pathetic. Go look up the definition of the word 'intent' and that might give you some idea of why certain things will be perceived as harmless and others not. Why do you want to shout white power? Bunch of weirdos...

I don't know why you are so stuck on this white power thing, I only used it as an example and you seemed to ignore everything else I said (good idea, since you clearly lost that battle). I never said I want to be able to shout that, I used it as an example of the double standard when it comes to white ethnicity's vs minorities. White racists aren't the only ones to have ever used a phrase like "insert ethnicity here" power, yet somehow all Whites are tied down to this stereotype if they say it. Your justification of an entire ethnic group not using the phrase "White power" is that racists were using it 60 years ago, therefore if we use it today we are in danger of being considered racist. Even if we are in no way related to a racist group, if we say "White" power we are deemed racist because of the actions of people before us. The phrase itself is not racist, it's the over-generalizing public who do not take the time to think for themselves that immediately deemed it racist. It is just an example of the double standard in America, where it's PI to use any generalizations when it comes to minorities but PC to just accept everything said about Whites.

Here's another example: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/duk ... 48540.html

[ermocrate]

I remember reading an article by Scoop Jackson about different racially charged comments from Phil and it always left a bad taste in my mouth, but what he says here is true for the most part.

It can be black and white, but it could also boil down to class. In the inner city there's a dog eat dog mentality. Everyone wants to make it out the hood, and be that savior that takes everyone with them. That mentality translates to the playing field. I've seen it growing up and been a victim to it. Even to the mentality of thinking the NBA is the greatest achievement possible. Now as an adult, I can see NBA players for what they are: just basketball players. It would be nice to be lauded like them and have their money, but they're not changing the world or the way people think (aside from the theme of hard work).

What hood did Kobe grow up in?

What's your point? Does Kobe's trigger finger invalidate everything I said? Does Pete Maravich's and Rick Barry's shot happy style of play invalidate everything that Phil Jackson said?

Or did you really wanna know where Kobe grew up?

Italy!

[eagereyez]

If your main and most consistent evidence of racism and double standards against white people is based on a 20 year old movie staring Woody Harrelson called White guys can't jump then you might have to stop and think about why you're arguing.

Especially when that movie showed that white guys can indeed jump.

Black history month
BET
Affirmative Action

http://townhall.com/columnists/walterew ... page/full/

The double standard is all around us, all you have to do is ask yourself what would happen if I tried to make a movement titled "Whites for ___________"? Has there ever been a movement with that title? Why not?

Maybe you don't see it because you never really saw it first hand, but I live in one of the most ethnically diverse populations in my state. I remember my Tongan friend in high school asking my White math teacher a question about Black history month. He asked her, "why is there a black history month"? She got upset with him asking the question and responded "Why do you ask that, do you want a Tongan history month"? So many people just accept the double standard for being there that they never really question why it even exists.

[Neutral 123]

I don't know why you are so stuck on this white power thing, I only used it as an example and you seemed to ignore everything else I said (good idea, since you clearly lost that battle). I never said I want to be able to shout that, I used it as an example of the double standard when it comes to white ethnicity's vs minorities. White racists aren't the only ones to have ever used a phrase like "insert ethnicity here" power, yet somehow all Whites are tied down to this stereotype if they say it. Your justification of an entire ethnic group not using the phrase "White power" is that racists were using it 60 years ago, therefore if we use it today we are in danger of being considered racist. Even if we are in no way related to a racist group, if we say "White" power we are deemed racist because of the actions of people before us. The phrase itself is not racist, it's the over-generalizing public who do not take the time to think for themselves that immediately deemed it racist. It is just an example of the double standard in America, where it's PI to use any generalizations when it comes to minorities but PC to just accept everything said about Whites.

Here's another example: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/duk ... 48540.html

Again, you've shown no double standard, and that term is still used today by white racists. Seriously, now you post a link to white people mocking Asians, in a racially insensitive way, and that's your example of whites being treated unfairly? Are you sure you're ok?

[eagereyez]

I don't know why you are so stuck on this white power thing, I only used it as an example and you seemed to ignore everything else I said (good idea, since you clearly lost that battle). I never said I want to be able to shout that, I used it as an example of the double standard when it comes to white ethnicity's vs minorities. White racists aren't the only ones to have ever used a phrase like "insert ethnicity here" power, yet somehow all Whites are tied down to this stereotype if they say it. Your justification of an entire ethnic group not using the phrase "White power" is that racists were using it 60 years ago, therefore if we use it today we are in danger of being considered racist. Even if we are in no way related to a racist group, if we say "White" power we are deemed racist because of the actions of people before us. The phrase itself is not racist, it's the over-generalizing public who do not take the time to think for themselves that immediately deemed it racist. It is just an example of the double standard in America, where it's PI to use any generalizations when it comes to minorities but PC to just accept everything said about Whites.

Here's another example: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/duk ... 48540.html

Again, you've shown no double standard, and that term is still used today by white racists. Seriously, now you post a link to white people mocking Asians, in a racially insensitive way, and that's your example of whites being treated unfairly? Are you sure you're ok?

Why don't you take the time to read the couple thousand comments on that article before talking, the people who commented actually know what racism is.

[Frank Mulely]

This is why you can't have a civil discussion about this sort of thing because it always gets derailed by people bringing up racism. This thread, and what Phil wrote, wasn't about racism, sociology, or anything else, it was about basketball and different styles of play. Now if you want to debate and say that Phil was wrong, that black players are just as good or even better team players than white players, such as Magic Johnson for instance, and that white players can break ankles too, like Manu Ginobili, now that is a good debate. But save the racism stuff for somewhere else, nobody wants to hear it.

Stop trying to tell other people what their opinions should be. It's amazing how overly sensitive "certain" people get in these discussions.