Should Lin come off the bench?

Post #81 » by **Nuntius** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:31 am

Choker wrote:The idea of having Lin be the sixth man is more for the benefit of the team overall than it is seeing him demoted.

There are certainly ignorant people that just want to see Lin demoted for whatever reason. But as you said that's not the case for anyone. Some people just believe that 6th men are really important for some teams

Post #82 » by **kingkirk** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:19 am

Like most things, i completely agree with Nuntius.

Too much emphasis is put on 'starting'. Its not about who starts, but about who finishes and allowing a greater team balance for 4 quarters to put your team in the best situation to win.

Lin and Harden can coexist. No question.

I still believe based on their career production to date that both guys are at their best when they have the ball and are controlling the offense. Lin looked fantastic when running the show with Harden off the floor yesterday. We know what Harden brings.

From a team balance perspective, i think with the second unit, Lin's game would be a better fit as a scorer and creator with the likes of Garcia, Casspi etc surrounding him.

Beverly, a great find at PG, can't score like Lin or run a team to the point where he can control the second unit. Beverly is a great energy and defense guy that doesn't need the ball to be effective in a game. We saw what he did against Holiday.

To me, that is the perfect type of point guard to put next to elite SGs.

Its not a demotion for Lin to be the 6th man in my eyes. In fact, i think he could be 6MOY if he plays there.

From a balance perspective, i prefer that constant offensive pressure that the Rockets could sustain with one of Lin or Harden running the show the entire game.

Heat fan06 · Post #83 » by **Heat fan06** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:49 pm

So is this the plan or just something Mchale is trying?

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3

HotRocks34 · Post #84 » by **HotRocks34** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:58 pm

KingCuban wrote:Beverly, a great find at PG, can't score like Lin or run a team to the point where he can control the second unit. Beverly is a great energy and defense guy that doesn't need the ball to be effective in a game. We saw what he did against Holiday.

The Holiday thing was an understandable fluke, as I discussed earlier in the thread. I don't think that will ever happen again between the two players, as now Holiday knows Beverley's game (and he did not know it before as he had never faced Beverley in a game previously). It's like Lin the first time teams saw him and then seeing him the second time around.

Beverley has not had anything like that in the rest of the preseason and I don't ever expect to see something like that again, including against a high-turnover player like Holiday. The only way I could see a repeat of the Holiday thing happening is if another high-turnover player goes against Beverley for the first time once again. Second time around, can't see it happening again.

Just to help point out the flukiness of the Holiday incident, Beverley has never had another 4+ steal game in his NBA career (50 games). Lin's PER 36 career steals mark (2.1) is better than Beverley's (1.9) as well. To help further the point, in 82 regular season games last year, Lin had 10 games of four or more steals.

Beverley is a strong defender, without question. But people may have an overinflated sense of Beverley's defensive abilities. In the OKC series, for example, Thunder backup Reggie Jackson got the better of Beverley and overpowered him several times on offense in the final 5 quarters of the series. I think this is why Beverley wanted to gain weight in the summer, to help such a situation from occurring again.

DWiz · Post #85 » by **DWiz** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:22 pm

Kupchak9 wrote:Last year Lin came in 2nd as the Western all-star starting point guard, with his marketability I don't think he's leaving the league anytime soon.

Tbh, he sucks. But if you can get him in a good market and taylor a system for him then he's a positive addition to a franchise economically

Manitoba · Post #86 » by **Manitoba** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:34 pm

Choker wrote:One thing I noticed a lot of good teams have is a good point guard off the bench that can maintain the flow of the game. Beverly doesn't fill that role, but Lin could. Having Lin come off the bench could really boost the team and strengthen the second unit.

The idea of having Lin be the sixth man is more for the benefit of the team overall than it is seeing him demoted.

If Beverley can't even run the second unit, never mind the first, the solution is not to punish Lin for being better. Forcing Lin to the bench, when he totally doesn't deserve to be there, is the wrong move. No, if Beverley can't do the job, the solution is to dump him. The latter is what will really help the team.

Post #87 » by **Mr. E** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:38 pm

Heat fan06 wrote:So is this the plan or just something Mchale is trying?

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3

At this point the only locks for starter in Houston are Harden, Parsons & Howard.

McHale will explore his options at PG with Lin & Beverley; and at Power Forward with Motiejunas, Jones & Smith.

They could even try out Howard at PF alongside Asik at Center.

The team has pretty impressive flexibility.

Post #88 » by **Mr. E** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:39 pm

Manitoba wrote:If Beverley can't even run the second unit, never mind the first, the solution is not to punish Lin for being better. Forcing Lin to the bench, when he totally doesn't deserve to be there, is the wrong move. No, if Beverley can't do the job, the solution is to dump him. The latter is what will really help the team.

Wait a second - are you actually suggesting that Houston would be better off getting rid of Patrick Beverley?

Manitoba · Post #89 » by **Manitoba** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:53 pm

Mr. E wrote:
Manitoba wrote:If Beverley can't even run the second unit, never mind the first, the solution is not to punish Lin for being better. Forcing Lin to the bench, when he totally doesn't deserve to be there, is the wrong move. No, if Beverley can't do the job, the solution is to dump him. The latter is what will really help the team.

Wait a second - are you actually suggesting that Houston would be better off getting rid of Patrick Beverley?

Yes, by replacing Beverley with someone who can actually run the second unit, Houston will improve. Punishing Lin for being the better player, by demoting him to the bench, is morally, tactically, and strategically wrong.

Post #90 » by **Mr. E** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:02 pm

Manitoba wrote:Yes, by replacing Beverley with someone who can actually run the second unit, Houston will improve. Punishing Lin for being the better player, by demoting him to the bench, is morally, tactically, and strategically wrong.

No one is talking about "punishing" Jeremy Lin. The Rockets need to do whatever they need to do in order to guarantee the most success. Using Lin in a Ginobli-type role is something that is being explored. There is no "punishment" involved.

I don't understand how you could have watched last season's Rockets after the addition of Patrick Beverley and hold the opinion that the team would be better off without him. The Rockets have a great situation at the PG position between Lin & Beverley. It's baffling to me that anyone would suggest getting rid of either one of them.

HotRocks34 · Post #91 » by **HotRocks34** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:10 pm

Prime James wrote:
Kupchak9 wrote:Last year Lin came in 2nd as the Western all-star starting point guard, with his marketability I don't think he's leaving the league anytime soon.

Tbh, he sucks. But if you can get him in a good market and taylor a system for him then he's a positive addition to a franchise economically

To repeat from earlier in the thread:

* During Linsanity in New York, Lin's PER 36 scoring was 19.6
* In the 2013 preseason, Lin's PER 36 scoring is 19.4

So, for all the people who tried to pretend that Linsanity was a fluke, and who claimed that Lin "sucks," you appear to have been wrong. He "sucked" last year, at the start of the year, apparently because his knee wasn't right. Last year in the preseason, as he was recovering from knee surgery, his PER 36 scoring mark was 9.0.

I just did a quick run-through on Lin's efficiency numbers this preseason as compared with his efficiency numbers during Linsanity in New York. The efficiency numbers this preseason are actually better PER 36 than the numbers in New York. If Patrick Beverley weren't playing so well, the story might be how Linsanity basically appears to be back in business. At least to the extent it could be in the preseason.

To help clarify things a bit more, lets take a look at Lin's 3rd-year numbers -- reduced as they may have been due to the early season knee struggles -- and compare them with "Player X" in his 3rd year.

Lin -- 13/3/6 on 14.9 PER
X ---- 08/3/6 on 10.9 PER

To see who "Player X" is, check out the spolier

Spoiler:

The truth is that both Beverley and Lin are playing at a very high level, and Houston is looking to be in great shape at the point guard spot.

The lack of information about, and/or blind dislike of, Lin seems often to be so irrational it is frightening. You don't have to like him, but it is probably best to adhere to some version of fact-based argument when talking about him, even if you are seeking to put him down.

Kabookalu · Post #92 » by **Kabookalu** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:30 pm

Manitoba wrote:If Beverley can't even run the second unit, never mind the first, the solution is not to punish Lin for being better. Forcing Lin to the bench, when he totally doesn't deserve to be there, is the wrong move. No, if Beverley can't do the job, the solution is to dump him. The latter is what will really help the team.

Beverly can't, but Harden can.

Total_Package · Post #93 » by **Total_Package** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:39 pm

Manitoba wrote:
Mr. E wrote:
Manitoba wrote:If Beverley can't even run the second unit, never mind the first, the solution is not to punish Lin for being better. Forcing Lin to the bench, when he totally doesn't deserve to be there, is the wrong move. No, if Beverley can't do the job, the solution is to dump him. The latter is what will really help the team.

Wait a second - are you actually suggesting that Houston would be better off getting rid of Patrick Beverley?

Yes, by replacing Beverley with someone who can actually run the second unit, Houston will improve. Punishing Lin for being the better player, by demoting him to the bench, is morally, tactically, and strategically wrong.

LOL what a joke. Get off Lin's cock for a second and see it for what it is.... if its best for the team for Lin to come off the bench then do it.

Yeah yeah we all know the Asian culture is to not bring shame on your family. Poor Lin is going to go home and cop a beating by his dad because he comes off the bench and because it shames all Asians that he is not a starter.

What a joke. Lin doesn't deserve to be starting on that team. He is average at best and usually below average.

orlandomanic · Post #94 » by **orlandomanic** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:41 pm

if you have homer glasses on, then no, he should start

if you have your homer glasses off, then yes, he is a bench player

Lin is a horrible PG, but an above average basketball player.

Kabookalu · Post #95 » by **Kabookalu** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:51 pm

Total_Package wrote:LOL what a joke. Get off Lin's cock for a second and see it for what it is.... if its best for the team for Lin to come off the bench then do it.

Yeah yeah we all know the Asian culture is to not bring shame on your family. Poor Lin is going to go home and cop a beating by his dad because he comes off the bench and because it shames all Asians that he is not a starter.

What a joke. Lin doesn't deserve to be starting on that team. He is average at best and usually below average.

Poor attempt of being funny.

Post #96 » by **Mr. E** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:56 pm

I disagree with the opinion that Lin is not a good starter. I do believe that when all is said and done that he will emerge as the starting point guard, but if it turns out that the Rockets best interests are served by using Lin in a Ginobli-type role then they need to do that.

Let's not oversimplify things here: It is not like the Rockets will start five guys and then bring five other guys in at the same time. We are going to see combinations of Lin, Harden and Beverley on the court at different times (in some situations possibly all on the court at the same time). Being a "starter" on this team does not directly correlate with the player's worth to the franchise.

Last season the popular (albeit misguided) argument was "Lin or Harden." The answer to that was "Lin AND Harden." The team is better off with both. We're seeing the same misguided "Lin or Beverley" argument now, and the answer is once again "Lin AND Beverley." It's just a matter of figuring out the best way to use all of the Rockets players in order to achieve the greatest success.

Manitoba · Post #97 » by **Manitoba** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:58 pm

Mr.E wrote:No one is talking about "punishing" Jeremy Lin. The Rockets need to do whatever they need to do in order to guarantee the most success. Using Lin in a Ginobli-type role is something that is being explored. There is no "punishment" involved.

Of course being demoted from starter to bench warmer is punishment, and it will be seen as such by 99.99% of the basketball world. The exceptions are very rare.

The Rockets have a better option than to give Beverley a promotion for being worse than Lin: they can replace Beverley with a better backup PG.

I don't understand how you could have watched last season's Rockets after the addition of Patrick Beverley and hold the opinion that the team would be better off without him. The Rockets have a great situation at the PG position between Lin & Beverley. It's baffling to me that anyone would suggest getting rid of either one of them.

I have indeed seen Beverley's fumbling attempts at running Houston's second unit, and *that* is why the Rockets will be better off with a more competent backup PG.

bfpri · Post #98 » by **bfpri** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:59 pm

I can't believe someone called Beverley's performance against Holiday a fluke and dare to insinuate that Lin's defense might be better than Bevs. These lin fans, smh, seeing what they want to see as usual.

Total_Package · Post #99 » by **Total_Package** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:00 pm

Choker wrote:
Total_Package wrote:LOL what a joke. Get off Lin's cock for a second and see it for what it is.... if its best for the team for Lin to come off the bench then do it.

Yeah yeah we all know the Asian culture is to not bring shame on your family. Poor Lin is going to go home and cop a beating by his dad because he comes off the bench and because it shames all Asians that he is not a starter.

What a joke. Lin doesn't deserve to be starting on that team. He is average at best and usually below average.

Poor attempt of being funny.

Actually no I was being serious. I am sick of "fans" who only support a team because 1 player is the same race as them... and then have a cry when people don't think their hero is as good as they do.

Lin is average and overrated and no way in hell should be starting in this league. Let's be honest the only reason he is even on Houston's roster is because he is the token Asian recruited to keep all of the bandwagon Asian fans that originally came across for Yao Ming.

He is ****... and they should just deal with it... without crying and moaning about him not being a starter.

Kabookalu · Post #100 » by **Kabookalu** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:04 pm

Total_Package wrote:Actually no I was being serious. I am sick of "fans" who only support a team because 1 player is the same race as them... and then have a cry when people don't think their hero is as good as they do.

Lin is average and overrated and no way in hell should be starting in this league. Let's be honest the only reason he is even on Houston's roster is because he is the token Asian recruited to keep all of the bandwagon Asian fans that originally came across for Yao Ming.

He is ****... and they should just deal with it... without crying and moaning about him not being a starter.

Yeah, has nothing to do with the fact that he's actually a good player. If what you said was even remotely true then he wouldn't have been let go by Golden State, Houston, and been riding the pine in New York for so long. Asians playing in the NBA isn't anything new, Yao Ming isn't the first, and a lot of those guys didn't do anything because they weren't good.