Reasons why the NBA is not rigged

Moderators: zimpy27, infinite11285, Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77

Peregrine01
Head Coach
Posts: 6,725
And1: 7,653
Joined: Sep 12, 2012

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#81 » by Peregrine01 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:57 pm

Hooplah wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
There were several reaches/grabs on Kyrie that weren't called as well.

From my perspective it's the Green thing all over again. After the second Adams' play, the NBA told him one more shot to the nuts and you're suspended. He did it anyway. Curry's in foul trouble and he's gambling - over and over again because he doesn't think the officials have the balls to foul him out. Guess what - he's special but he's not that special.


Or Curry's used to being reffed a certain way. You don't seem very fond of him though, so tell me how many of these fouls on Lebron were actually legit:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJsdQazLi0c[/youtube]


I remember this game. One of the few times in James' career that he has been reffed this way - and he has a rep as being one of the best defenders in the game. A couple of them were phantom calls. I don't think it's pure coincidence at all that the refs officiated like this given the circumstances that Miami and Golden State were in.
jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,272
And1: 36,294
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#82 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:58 pm

Hooplah wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I don't know what a game from years ago in a different series has to do with Thursday night's game.

Several times the Warriors went on a run and the Cavs answered. Several times the Warriors got it down to 8 or 9 points and the Cavs responded by pushing it out to double digits. GS couldn't get stops and Curry started gambling. I really don't think it's more complicated than that.


It's one of the rare examples of Lebron getting 5 fouls. Academic studies suggest refs are biased towards the losing team, especially in elimination games. Lebron received those 5 fouls up 3-1 in the Eastern Conference finals. The point is that Curry didn't have to worry about fouls as much down 3-1 to the Thunder as he had to up 3-1 in the Finals.


But there was never a situation against OKC where GS just couldn't get stops after Game 4. Look at OKC's 4th quarter numbers in Games 5, 6, & 7. GS was never really in trouble late in any of those games. Look, I don't blame Curry from gambling on defense when his team is struggling (although if I were a GS fan I'd rather see the other players gamble), I just resent the implication that Curry ought to be able to do so without worrying about committing a foul because he's the MVP.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
Guest202
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,583
And1: 1,245
Joined: Jun 14, 2014
 

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#83 » by Guest202 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:00 pm

Rigged is an aggressive catch-all word that some of you seem to imply means it's top to bottom fraud. Nah. It's more of a matter of convenience. Draymond suspension = convenience. *If* they can extend the series they will try, but it's far from a perfect science. If Barnes was hot, GS prob wins in spite of refs.

I don't even think it's explicit orders -- it doesn't take more than a few well placed GREAT JOB last night *wink wink* to get the point across that you did the company well for most refs to read between the lines.
vancity604
Junior
Posts: 252
And1: 412
Joined: Nov 18, 2012

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#84 » by vancity604 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:27 pm

Dennis 37 wrote:
vancity604 wrote:6. Fans of all 30 teams complain about officiating and think the game is rigged against their team...its never the opponent getting screwed, its only their team. What a coincidence.



It is not a coincidence. The fans of all 30 teams recognize point spread manipulation, playoff series extending behaviour, and playoff team manipulation when they see it. As much as I was thrilled that the Raptors won games 3 and 4 of the ECF, I can't help thinking that LeBron was told to dial it back a notch in those two games as a favour to league revenue.

Does it mean everything in the NBA is rigged? No. Does the league have serious integrity problems? Yes.


Seriously? So not only is the commissioner, refs and owners in on it...but the players too?

The NBA plays around 1400 games a year and generates billions in revenue..you think they are going to risk the leagues integrity by asking players to throw games just for a few extra games? You actualy think the league trusts its players that much and none of the players will ever expose it at some point?
Dennis 37
RealGM
Posts: 15,743
And1: 18,467
Joined: Feb 24, 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
 

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#85 » by Dennis 37 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:41 am

vancity604 wrote:
Dennis 37 wrote:
vancity604 wrote:6. Fans of all 30 teams complain about officiating and think the game is rigged against their team...its never the opponent getting screwed, its only their team. What a coincidence.



It is not a coincidence. The fans of all 30 teams recognize point spread manipulation, playoff series extending behaviour, and playoff team manipulation when they see it. As much as I was thrilled that the Raptors won games 3 and 4 of the ECF, I can't help thinking that LeBron was told to dial it back a notch in those two games as a favour to league revenue.

Does it mean everything in the NBA is rigged? No. Does the league have serious integrity problems? Yes.


Seriously? So not only is the commissioner, refs and owners in on it...but the players too?

The NBA plays around 1400 games a year and generates billions in revenue..you think they are going to risk the leagues integrity by asking players to throw games just for a few extra games? You actualy think the league trusts its players that much and none of the players will ever expose it at some point?


So what is it that sows these suspicions? If it were just a few crackpots spouting off based on thin to non-existent evidence, they could be ignored. As for the integrity of the league, I point to a kick in the groin. I point to Stephen A.Smith, who congratulated the league on not suspending Green, not because he didn't deserve it, but because those who invest in the game, ticket holders and commercial rights holders would be denied a full strength match. Look at the video, posted earlier in thus thread, about LeBron's fouls against the Pacers. His body language communicates that he knows full well what is happening to him.
Maxpainmedia:
"NYC has the **** most Two Faced fans, but we ALL loved IQ,, and that is super rare, I've been a Knicks fan for 37 years, this kid is a star and he will snap in Toronto"
LeMasta
Veteran
Posts: 2,625
And1: 2,194
Joined: May 10, 2015
 

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#86 » by LeMasta » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:16 am

The Oilers had 4 FIRST overall picks the past 7-8 years. Last place has a 25% chance of getting it and they weren't last every year
vancity604
Junior
Posts: 252
And1: 412
Joined: Nov 18, 2012

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#87 » by vancity604 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:39 am

LeMasta wrote:The Oilers had 4 FIRST overall picks the past 7-8 years. Last place has a 25% chance of getting it and they weren't last every year


If it was the Arizona Coyotes who won that many 1st overall picks people would be screaming that the NHL is rigged! Gary Bettman trying to help the Coyotes survive in Arizona.....
jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,272
And1: 36,294
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#88 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:30 am

Dennis 37 wrote:
vancity604 wrote:
Dennis 37 wrote:

It is not a coincidence. The fans of all 30 teams recognize point spread manipulation, playoff series extending behaviour, and playoff team manipulation when they see it. As much as I was thrilled that the Raptors won games 3 and 4 of the ECF, I can't help thinking that LeBron was told to dial it back a notch in those two games as a favour to league revenue.

Does it mean everything in the NBA is rigged? No. Does the league have serious integrity problems? Yes.


Seriously? So not only is the commissioner, refs and owners in on it...but the players too?

The NBA plays around 1400 games a year and generates billions in revenue..you think they are going to risk the leagues integrity by asking players to throw games just for a few extra games? You actualy think the league trusts its players that much and none of the players will ever expose it at some point?


So what is it that sows these suspicions? If it were just a few crackpots spouting off based on thin to non-existent evidence, they could be ignored. As for the integrity of the league, I point to a kick in the groin. I point to Stephen A.Smith, who congratulated the league on not suspending Green, not because he didn't deserve it, but because those who invest in the game, ticket holders and commercial rights holders would be denied a full strength match. Look at the video, posted earlier in thus thread, about LeBron's fouls against the Pacers. His body language communicates that he knows full well what is happening to him.


Truer words have never been spoken. Thanks for the advice.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
NBARocks
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,794
And1: 1,507
Joined: Feb 25, 2014
Contact:
   

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#89 » by NBARocks » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:24 am

the NBA is not rigged per se as in the league itself is fixing games. but you can be sure the refs are trying to fix games because of gambling. either they're involved of their own will, or they are being blackmailed or threatened.

ofc, that doesn't assure a fully fixed game for the gambling lords. the game can still be taken out of the refs hands. but it can make things harder for a team.
User avatar
Vee-Rex
Veteran
Posts: 2,563
And1: 2,750
Joined: Apr 17, 2015
     

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#90 » by Vee-Rex » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:48 am

OP just sonned all the crybabies on RGM.
LeMasta
Veteran
Posts: 2,625
And1: 2,194
Joined: May 10, 2015
 

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#91 » by LeMasta » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:30 pm

Vee-Rex wrote:OP just sonned all the crybabies on RGM.


Well no matter what, people will continue to doubt the NBA's legitimacy, like people will continue to mindlessly hate LeBron every single opportunity they get. I just don't understand tbh.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,185
And1: 5,035
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#92 » by JonFromVA » Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:18 pm

The refs have always shown a bias in the NBA. If anything, it's been reduced since the NBA started instituting reforms.

No, not because of Tim Donaghy, but because of Mark Cuban finally exposing the good old boys club the refs union had become under Ronnie Nunn.

Part of winning in the NBA has always included overcoming the refs.
User avatar
lobosloboslobos
RealGM
Posts: 12,942
And1: 18,509
Joined: Jan 08, 2009
Location: space is the place
 

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#93 » by lobosloboslobos » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:11 pm

I don't understand why more people have not taken the time to actually understand what happened with Tim Donaghy. Even after all this time most posters seem totally ignorant of the facts and write him off as a crooked liar whose actions are total outliers. But if you are going to talk about the integrity of the league you need to understand what happened with him, so I will break it down for you:

- Tim Donaghy liked to bet on NBA games (like a lot of players, probably like some refs; and of course wrong and illegal)
- As he was illegally laying bets, the mob discovered him to be an NBA ref and aggressively blackmailed him into giving them tips about who to favor in specific games, including - but not limited to - ones he reffed himself
- the FBI was tapping the mob's phones and discovered Donaghy feeding them info by accident

now here are the 2 most important facts about Donaghy:

1. the FBI has confirmed on 60 Minutes that Donaghy had a 75% success rate against the spread picking winners in games he did not referee

To pick 75% against the spread is absolutely unheard of and statistically impossible unless:

a) Donaghy was colluding with other refs to fix games he was not reffing (there is no evidence whatsoever that this happened except perhaps the hundreds of phone calls to Scott Foster just before games and their meaning as discussed here http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/07/14/disgraced-former-nba-referee-tim-donaghy-phone-calls-to-second-ref-raise.html) or
b) his knowledge of the internal directives, feuds and refereeing assignments gave him such a clear insight into who was going to win that he could get it right against the spread 75% of the time

The second one is the one Donaghy affirms happened and which he has talked about in great detail in terms of the how and who and why, with a clear and explicit awareness of the direct hand of the NBA in shaping the conditions and internal politics that led him to be able to pick winners against the spread so accurately

2. Donaghy agreed to a plea bargain with the FBI that required him to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth about everything that he did. He took the deal to avoid a 25 year jail term knowing that if he lied or omitted anything he would spend most of his life in jail as a result. Not only that he knew they had many hours of wiretapped recordings of him and there was no way to wiggle out of it.

Now you can believe that he is a liar, but you need to understand the immense amount of pressure on him to tell the truth and the amount of verification of what he said that was done and reported on by the FBI.

You can interpret the above however you like, but personally I believe the NBA knows as well as Donaghy did the impact of their refereeing assignments and directives, and that sometimes it assigns and guides referees for strategic purposes to enhance the league's competitiveness, increase the brand power of stars and generally build a more profitable business.

I'm a big fan of the game but I think to pretend this is not how things work is to be naive. I think the players know it and everyone in the league knows it. Sometimes to win your biggest challenge is changing the narrative so that now it is working in your favour.

Anyway, this is not to say every game or series is rigged, not at all. Definitely not. But in various ways is the NBA a player in its own game? Absolutely.
Image
User avatar
MartinToVaught
RealGM
Posts: 15,733
And1: 17,801
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
     

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#94 » by MartinToVaught » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:22 pm

LeMasta wrote:The Oilers had 4 FIRST overall picks the past 7-8 years. Last place has a 25% chance of getting it and they weren't last every year

The NHL actually changed the lottery format a couple years ago to prevent another Oilers situation from ever happening again. The bottom four teams now have significantly worse chances of winning it while the other non-playoff teams' odds went up. The lottery also now determines the top three picks instead of just the first overall.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-announces-changes-to-draft-lottery-format/c-728795

If there's one league that definitely isn't rigged, it's the NHL - if only because it's run by total idiots who are too inept to rig it if they tried and certainly could never keep it under wraps.
Image
Krodis
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,876
And1: 599
Joined: Nov 28, 2009

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#95 » by Krodis » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:48 pm

The obvious reason why the NBA isn't rigged is simple risk/reward. The marginal gains that would come from rigging the league would not be worth risking the entire operation.

You can always fit a narrative to a sequence of events if you try hard enough. The fact that people seem to believe it isn't proof of anything. The idea that large amounts of people can't be wrong or hold spurious beliefs is just silly.
mup
Veteran
Posts: 2,692
And1: 556
Joined: Jul 20, 2004

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#96 » by mup » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:28 pm

Just curious... Do the people who think the NBA is rigged think that the tv networks are really stupid or just really bad at negotiating? It has to be one or the other.

My point is this... Even if the NBA has a great 7 game finals between two teams that draw huge ratings, the tv networks are well aware that next year the finals might be between two less attractive teams and be done in 4. They are going to make their offer based on the entire range of possibilities and will structure any deal to make sure they don't take a bath if next year's finals is between the bucks and Spurs and only goes 4 games. So, the point being... If the NBA rigged the finals, it really doesn't help the NBA. It helps the networks who are selling ad time, but that's not going to translate into a better tv contract unless we assume the tv networks are idiots who don't account for worst case scenarios when negotiating their contracts.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,185
And1: 5,035
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#97 » by JonFromVA » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:45 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:Now you can believe that he is a liar, but you need to understand the immense amount of pressure on him to tell the truth and the amount of verification of what he said that was done and reported on by the FBI.


The issue then is sorting out what he admitted to the FBI .vs. what he's said since to sell books or whatever it is he's doing not keeping his mouth shut since going to jail.

Also in judging his success rate, it's important to know if he was picking the winning team most of the time or just picking the over/under as the over/under is far easier to manipulate for a ref without being obvious.

A game can be fixed without being rigged by just calling more (or less) fouls on both teams.
Dennis 37
RealGM
Posts: 15,743
And1: 18,467
Joined: Feb 24, 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
 

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#98 » by Dennis 37 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:48 pm

mup wrote:Just curious... Do the people who think the NBA is rigged think that the tv networks are really stupid or just really bad at negotiating? It has to be one or the other.

My point is this... Even if the NBA has a great 7 game finals between two teams that draw huge ratings, the tv networks are well aware that next year the finals might be between two less attractive teams and be done in 4. They are going to make their offer based on the entire range of possibilities and will structure any deal to make sure they don't take a bath if next year's finals is between the bucks and Spurs and only goes 4 games. So, the point being... If the NBA rigged the finals, it really doesn't help the NBA. It helps the networks who are selling ad time, but that's not going to translate into a better tv contract unless we assume the tv networks are idiots who don't account for worst case scenarios when negotiating their contracts.


Could it not be a $ per playoff game contract? The more games played , the more the league gets? It takes the risk out of it for the TV networks. They get to sell ads based on the content available.
Maxpainmedia:
"NYC has the **** most Two Faced fans, but we ALL loved IQ,, and that is super rare, I've been a Knicks fan for 37 years, this kid is a star and he will snap in Toronto"
vancity604
Junior
Posts: 252
And1: 412
Joined: Nov 18, 2012

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#99 » by vancity604 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:21 pm

The NBA had over 5 billion in revenue last year...no way they risk tarnishing reputation of the league for an extra 10 million in revenue.
In the past 28 years there have only been 5 NBA Finals that went to a game 7. This idea that the league is deliberately extending series to 7 games for extra revenue is absurd.
kamaze
General Manager
Posts: 7,791
And1: 1,315
Joined: Jul 10, 2005

Re: Reasons why the NBA is not rigged 

Post#100 » by kamaze » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:32 pm

I hope people realize all the refs cheat (call phantom calls to control the game, the winner is already decided.) Tim Donaghey took the blame as the sole bad apple but other refs were in on the gambling too the whole system is corrupt.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-FLHKsbWkU[/youtube]

Iverson wasn't one of the stars who get calls like Lebron does.

The commentators are in on it too
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jqkYNkasKM[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pikd-9qqQ1c[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UcJEMis16A[/youtube]
I got the burner-Kevin Durant

Cream rises to the top-Nic Claxton

Return to The General Board