Is Nikola Jokic a franchise level talent?

[sixerhp3]

Everyone on this board doesn't have a clue about Denver...franchise player?...he definitely can be...is he right now? He sure is showing it. The team is really starting to gel.

My question is even if these other bigs are "franchise" players wouldn't their teams at least be in the playoff hunt? Looking at you KAT and Embiid...

The talent levels on Philly hinder Embiid.. and with the Wolves, they so desperately need interior rim protection that its killing them. But I think in a couple years they will both be high-end playoff teams.

Every team has its needs...sure. The nuggets were predicted to be one of the worst teams in the league, they're tied for the 8th spot in the west currently. Franchise players take bad or mediocre teams and turn them into playoff contenders. Jokic is doing this. KAT And Embiid are putting up empty statistics at the end of the day. They are no different than Demarcus Cousins at this point either.

A franchise player is somebody you can build your team around...I don't think by any means he needs to be the leading scorer or option 1a. Put anyone around Jokic and he will make them better.

Also to the sour jailblazer fan dissing Denver... Up yours.

The thing is Embiid is a rookie bro, and is surrounded by maybe the worst guard lineup in NBA history. They aren't "mediocre" they are plain terrible. Once Simmons comes back and they fill some guards in with draft picks then you can judge how Embiid can carry a team

[FNQ]

Because Whiteside is a better defensive anchor; player

[Winsome Gerbil]

I don't think so.

For comparison, I consider Cousins and Davis to be franchise level bigs, and think its highly likely Embiid and KAT will join them.

I think Blake is a borderline case, who might be able to be one in different circumstances, but would need defensive help.

I don't consider Marc Gasol productive enough to be one, and it was very borderline whether his brother ever truly was either.


I think Jokic has a shot to be like a 3rd Gasol brother. I don't think he's ever going to be a dominant enough scorer, or a strong enough defender, to truly be "the franchise", but he's got a chance to be a strong #2/borderline All Star guy every year.

How is Cousins a franchise level big, but beither Gasol was? Hell, how is Marc Gasol not productive enough?

What reasoning did you use to reach this conclusion?

Sigh. Ok, look, RGM is touchy about too much comparative stuff being done out here on the general board instead of the Player Comparisons board. Nonetheless, the widespread Boogie ignorance on RGM has long been a sore spot with me, so I'm going to do this quickly.

Marc:
The single most productive NBA season Marc Gasol has ever had is this one so far, and he's produced:
33.9min 19.9pts 6.2reb 4.3ast 1.0stl 1.5blk

Which puts him 35th in the league in scoring, and 61st in the league in rebounding.

His best full season was 2 years ago when he produced:
33.2min 17.4pts 7.8reb 3.8ast 0.9stl 1.6blk

Those are, none of them, franchise player level numbers. That's a star, not a superstar.

Pau:
The single best season Pau ever put up tyring to carry Memphis on his own was:
36.2min 20.8pts 9.8reb 3.4ast 0.5stl 2.1blk

That's getting close to franchise level. Unfortunately it was one of only two years he ever broke 20ppg in a 15 year career. He was built to be a #2.

His best year as a #2 to Kobe was:
37.0min 18.3pts 11.3reb 3.4ast 0.6stl 1.7blk


Cousins:
Now let me demonstrate the gap between a skilled 18-20ppg star player, and a carry you every night franchise player. Cousins the last 4 years:

32.4min 22.7pts 11.7reb 2.9ast 1.5stl 1.3blk
34.1min 24.1pts 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk
34.6min 26.9pts 11.5reb 3.3ast 1.6stl 1.4blk
34.7min 29.1pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.5blk


Conclusion:
So to review:
Franchise player: 34.1min 24.1pts 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk
Not franchise player: 33.2min 17.4pts 7.8reb 3.8ast 0.9stl 1.6blk

Franchise player: 34.7min 29.1pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.5blk
Not franchise player: 36.2min 20.8pts 9.8reb 3.4ast 0.5stl 2.1blk

Having better teammates has never been a franchise player qualification. And if it is, Jokic is in trouble anyway. marc has made 2 All Star games in 9 years. Pay made 6 in 16, although only 1 as the main guy in Memphis (then 3 as Kobe's caddy, and 2 more dubious ones in Chicago). All Star caliber bigs, borderline All Star bigs. I can see Jokic reaching that level.


Jokic:
And to bring that all back to Jokic, his per36 right now is 17.7pts 11.1reb 5.3ast 0.9stl 1.0blk. Last year it was 16.5pts 11.6reb 3.9ast 1.6stl 1.0blk. That looks to me to be a guy headed much more down the Gasol path than the Boogie/KAT/Embiid 25-10 massive production path.

[trlp1712]

I don't think so.

For comparison, I consider Cousins and Davis to be franchise level bigs, and think its highly likely Embiid and KAT will join them.

I think Blake is a borderline case, who might be able to be one in different circumstances, but would need defensive help.

I don't consider Marc Gasol productive enough to be one, and it was very borderline whether his brother ever truly was either.


I think Jokic has a shot to be like a 3rd Gasol brother. I don't think he's ever going to be a dominant enough scorer, or a strong enough defender, to truly be "the franchise", but he's got a chance to be a strong #2/borderline All Star guy every year.

How is Cousins a franchise level big, but beither Gasol was? Hell, how is Marc Gasol not productive enough?

What reasoning did you use to reach this conclusion?

Sigh. Ok, look, RGM is touchy about too much comparative stuff being done out here on the general board instead of the Player Comparisons board. Nonetheless, the widespread Boogie ignorance on RGM has long been a sore spot with me, so I'm going to do this quickly.

Marc:
The single most productive NBA season Marc Gasol has ever had is this one so far, and he's produced:
33.9min 19.9pts 6.2reb 4.3ast 1.0stl 1.5blk

Which puts him 35th in the league in scoring, and 61st in the league in rebounding.

His best full season was 2 years ago when he produced:
33.2min 17.4pts 7.8reb 3.8ast 0.9stl 1.6blk

Those are, none of them, franchise player level numbers. That's a star, not a superstar.

Pau:
The single best season Pau ever put up tyring to carry Memphis on his own was:
36.2min 20.8pts 9.8reb 3.4ast 0.5stl 2.1blk

That's getting close to franchise level. Unfortunately it was one of only two years he ever broke 20ppg in a 15 year career. He was built to be a #2.

His best year as a #2 to Kobe was:
37.0min 18.3pts 11.3reb 3.4ast 0.6stl 1.7blk


Cousins:
Now let me demonstrate the gap between a skilled 18-20ppg star player, and a carry you every night franchise player. Cousins the last 4 years:

32.4min 22.7pts 11.7reb 2.9ast 1.5stl 1.3blk
34.1min 24.1pts 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk
34.6min 26.9pts 11.5reb 3.3ast 1.6stl 1.4blk
34.7min 29.1pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.5blk


Conclusion:
So to review:
Franchise player: 34.1min 24.1pts 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk
Not franchise player: 33.2min 17.4pts 7.8reb 3.8ast 0.9stl 1.6blk

Franchise player: 34.7min 29.1pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.5blk
Not franchise player: 36.2min 20.8pts 9.8reb 3.4ast 0.5stl 2.1blk

Having better teammates has never been a franchise player qualification. And if it is, Jokic is in trouble anyway. marc has made 2 All Star games in 9 years. Pay made 6 in 16, although only 1 as the main guy in Memphis (then 3 as Kobe's caddy, and 2 more dubious ones in Chicago). All Star caliber bigs, borderline All Star bigs. I can see Jokic reaching that level.


Jokic:
And to bring that all back to Jokic, his per36 right now is 17.7pts 11.1reb 5.3ast 0.9stl 1.0blk. Last year it was 16.5pts 11.6reb 3.9ast 1.6stl 1.0blk. That looks to me to be a guy headed much more down the Gasol path than the Boogie/KAT/Embiid 25-10 massive production path.

You're literally using boxscore numbers and all-star appearances (btw, what kind of reasoning is that to use against Pau. ASG are good except when they aren't?) while ignoring things like defense (you know Marc, he of the DPOY award and perennial top defensive player candidate) and all around performance and impact on the game. Let me ask you a question. This season only, at this point in their careers, who do you think any random GM would pick as the C of their team ignoring all other factors? For this year only.

If you don't think most would take Marc Gasol, I just don't know what to say.

Also, take a look at that Memphis roster this year (and last) and tell me Cousins would have done better (specially with Conley's injury this year).

I don't have a problem saying Cousins is a franchise player. I'd agree. Guy is a beast. I have a problem with saying he is, but Marc Gasol (and Pau in his prime) weren't. They are, at the very least, at a similiar level. And I honestly think both were better in their primes (Marc right now), specially taking defense into account; unless Cousins hasn't reached his prime, which could be the case.

[Winsome Gerbil]

How is Cousins a franchise level big, but beither Gasol was? Hell, how is Marc Gasol not productive enough?

What reasoning did you use to reach this conclusion?

Sigh. Ok, look, RGM is touchy about too much comparative stuff being done out here on the general board instead of the Player Comparisons board. Nonetheless, the widespread Boogie ignorance on RGM has long been a sore spot with me, so I'm going to do this quickly.

Marc:
The single most productive NBA season Marc Gasol has ever had is this one so far, and he's produced:
33.9min 19.9pts 6.2reb 4.3ast 1.0stl 1.5blk

Which puts him 35th in the league in scoring, and 61st in the league in rebounding.

His best full season was 2 years ago when he produced:
33.2min 17.4pts 7.8reb 3.8ast 0.9stl 1.6blk

Those are, none of them, franchise player level numbers. That's a star, not a superstar.

Pau:
The single best season Pau ever put up tyring to carry Memphis on his own was:
36.2min 20.8pts 9.8reb 3.4ast 0.5stl 2.1blk

That's getting close to franchise level. Unfortunately it was one of only two years he ever broke 20ppg in a 15 year career. He was built to be a #2.

His best year as a #2 to Kobe was:
37.0min 18.3pts 11.3reb 3.4ast 0.6stl 1.7blk


Cousins:
Now let me demonstrate the gap between a skilled 18-20ppg star player, and a carry you every night franchise player. Cousins the last 4 years:

32.4min 22.7pts 11.7reb 2.9ast 1.5stl 1.3blk
34.1min 24.1pts 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk
34.6min 26.9pts 11.5reb 3.3ast 1.6stl 1.4blk
34.7min 29.1pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.5blk


Conclusion:
So to review:
Franchise player: 34.1min 24.1pts 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk
Not franchise player: 33.2min 17.4pts 7.8reb 3.8ast 0.9stl 1.6blk

Franchise player: 34.7min 29.1pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.5blk
Not franchise player: 36.2min 20.8pts 9.8reb 3.4ast 0.5stl 2.1blk

Having better teammates has never been a franchise player qualification. And if it is, Jokic is in trouble anyway. marc has made 2 All Star games in 9 years. Pay made 6 in 16, although only 1 as the main guy in Memphis (then 3 as Kobe's caddy, and 2 more dubious ones in Chicago). All Star caliber bigs, borderline All Star bigs. I can see Jokic reaching that level.


Jokic:
And to bring that all back to Jokic, his per36 right now is 17.7pts 11.1reb 5.3ast 0.9stl 1.0blk. Last year it was 16.5pts 11.6reb 3.9ast 1.6stl 1.0blk. That looks to me to be a guy headed much more down the Gasol path than the Boogie/KAT/Embiid 25-10 massive production path.

You're literally using boxscore numbers and all-star appearances (btw, what kind of reasoning is that to use against Pau. ASG are good except when they aren't?) while ignoring things like defense (you know Marc, he of the DPOY award and perennial top defensive player candidate) and all around performance and impact on the game. Let me ask you a question. This season only, at this point in their careers, who do you think any random GM would pick as the C of their team ignoring all other factors? For this year only.

If you don't think most would take Marc Gasol, I just don't know what to say.

Also, take a look at that Memphis roster this year (and last) and tell me Cousins would have done better (specially with Conley's injury this year).

I don't have a problem saying Cousins is a franchise player. I'd agree. Guy is a beast. I have a problem with saying he is, but Marc Gasol (and Pau in his prime) weren't. They are, at the very least, at a similiar level. And I honestly think both were better in their primes (Marc right now), specially taking defense into account; unless Cousins hasn't reached his prime, which could be the case.

Cousins is already a better defender than Pau ever was, and the gap between him and Marc isn't what people think it is either. There still is one, but Cousins is a good defender.

And GMs are largely cowards. They fear for their jobs, so they would fear Cousins.

And no Marc Gasol is not and never has been a franchise player. It is physically impossible to be at that level of production unless you vastly expand the definition of "franchise player" to just every team's best player. To me it connotes more than that. Marc has career averages of 14.6pts 7.7reb. Hi, I'm your franchise guy...but hey, you guys go take care of all the actual scoring and rebounding, I'll just sit over here, you know, franchising. Doesn't work. He was maybe a 1st among equals, and maybe not even always that with Zach and Conley at their peaks. He's not a franchise guy. He won't be a HOFer. He may, this year, get a 3rd All Star appearance, and that even may be it for him as he heads toward 35 and with KAT and yes Jokic set to join Boogie and AD and Kawhi and Durant, with Blake still out there, and Gobert and Green and Jordan.

Time moves on. Marc got so much attention because he happened to pop up in a dead age for centers. In a peak center age, he would just be a footnote. That saavy "other" good center, like Arvydas back in the 90s with all the monsters roaming about. I can see Jokic being that same type guy. Arvydas or Vlade during an era with Cousins/Davis/Embiid/KAT playing the old Shaq/Admiral/Hakeem/Ewing/Mourning roles, Gobert maybe being Deke, etc.

[eathb_au]

I believe he is. Truly an impressive player. And yes, right there with Embiid in terms of versatility and impressiveness at the C position. But - and its funny to say - Embiid has a bit longer of a track record atm. Jokic looks so damned impressive though. I was under the impression that the Nuggets would have to swing a trade or two to land a star. Maybe not?

Or maybe they should, to pair with Jokic? If they could land a star guard while keeping Chandler/Jokic, I could see a top 5 Western finish in their very near future.

Only issue with him is lack of blocks and rim protection. The Nuggets do need to address that, and if they can't, I can also see Jokic being one of those fatally flawed 'franchise' players who put up obscene stats but dont do what the position requires.

I'd throw a homerun offer Miami's way for Whiteside and try and play Jokic and Whiteside together

I feel Serge Ibaka would be a tremendous fit next to Jokic but I don't know how much more Ibaka can play at that level and Denver does have max contract space next summer to pay for a guy like him.

[Nuggets_Talk]

He's good, but he's no Embiid

Posts like this make Sixers fans look bad. Quit it.

He's not lying... as long as embiid stays healthy will be a tier or two above jokic.

And many players will be a tier above embiid. How unfortunate.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Everyone on this board doesn't have a clue about Denver...franchise player?...he definitely can be...is he right now? He sure is showing it. The team is really starting to gel.

My question is even if these other bigs are "franchise" players wouldn't their teams at least be in the playoff hunt? Looking at you KAT and Embiid...

The talent levels on Philly hinder Embiid.. and with the Wolves, they so desperately need interior rim protection that its killing them. But I think in a couple years they will both be high-end playoff teams.

Every team has its needs...sure. The nuggets were predicted to be one of the worst teams in the league, they're tied for the 8th spot in the west currently. Franchise players take bad or mediocre teams and turn them into playoff contenders. Jokic is doing this. KAT And Embiid are putting up empty statistics at the end of the day. They are no different than Demarcus Cousins at this point either.

A franchise player is somebody you can build your team around...I don't think by any means he needs to be the leading scorer or option 1a. Put anyone around Jokic and he will make them better.

Also to the sour jailblazer fan dissing Denver... Up yours.

Good point. Preseason most fans had Minnesota above Denver. Now they are claiming Denver has the better team to use against jokic? Heh.

[sixerhp3]

Posts like this make Sixers fans look bad. Quit it.

He's not lying... as long as embiid stays healthy will be a tier or two above jokic.

And many players will be a tier above embiid. How unfortunate.

Please tell me what Centers will be a tier above Embiid (if he stays healthy), I'm curious to hear

[whocurrz]

What a steal this guy was, 41st overall pick.

Cue Danny Ainge leaking to the media that he recognized the talent and almost drafted him

[NickAnderson]

All star maybe? Franchise player? Hell no


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[HotelVitale]

Hell no...
Corner stone, in a best case scenario. FRANCHISE level... hell no.

Please define franchise player. Would you define a player as Chris Webber franchise player for SAC?
Imho, Jokic could could be a 18/10/5 player, less scorer but more efficient of Webber.
The only players in addition to Webb 18+, 10+, 5+ per season are Garnett and Barkley that are HOF.

That's just a cheap trick. Webber played for a really long time after he was franchise-level player but when he was one for SAC he was averaging like 25/10/5. Same thing with Barkley. So while Jokic at his peak might be a 18/10/5 player, that's really really far from being a guy who, over 6-7 years, averages 25/11/5.

Bottom line: being a good medium-usage player won't ever make you close to a franchise player unless you're completely elite defensively.

[walk with me]

Posts like this make Sixers fans look bad. Quit it.

He's not lying... as long as embiid stays healthy will be a tier or two above jokic.

And many players will be a tier above embiid. How unfortunate.

lol I don't care

[Nuggets_Talk]

He's not lying... as long as embiid stays healthy will be a tier or two above jokic.

And many players will be a tier above embiid. How unfortunate.

Please tell me what Centers will be a tier above Embiid (if he stays healthy), I'm curious to hear

Unless you are implying no one will be above embiid (with a condition of course), my point stands.

Hopefully you can see where this is going and how pointless it is to even mention embiids name in this thread.

[The Rebel]

A post that was posted by bwgood77 on the Nuggets board today.

Read on Twitter

Even leading the young guys in plus minus, while being younger than Embiid and the same age as KAT and Porzingis, yet people act like Jokic cannot get better and these guys will all improve automatically. The guy may not run fast or jump high, but he makes his teammates better and make the right play almost every time. the guy has to cut down on his fouls, and once that happens his real numbers will come into focus and people will be shocked.

[Nuggets_Talk]

He's not lying... as long as embiid stays healthy will be a tier or two above jokic.

And many players will be a tier above embiid. How unfortunate.

lol I don't care

Exactly. The same reason embiid should have never been brought up in the first place.

[walk with me]

A post that was posted by bwgood77 on the Nuggets board today.

Read on Twitter

Even leading the young guys in plus minus, while being younger than Embiid and the same age as KAT and Porzingis, yet people act like Jokic cannot get better and these guys will all improve automatically. The guy may not run fast or jump high, but he makes his teammates better and make the right play almost every time. the guy has to cut down on his fouls, and once that happens his real numbers will come into focus and people will be shocked.

Noguera > embiid Kat & porzingas

[walk with me]

And many players will be a tier above embiid. How unfortunate.

lol I don't care

Exactly. The same reason embiid should have never been brought up in the first place.

I don't care about your thoughts

Embiid future brighter then any center in the nba today and health pending will be better then jokic peak for peak

[sixerhp3]

lol I don't care

Exactly. The same reason embiid should have never been brought up in the first place.

I don't care about your thoughts

Embiid future brighter then any center in the nba today and health pending will be better then jokic peak for peak

What he is saying is that talking about Embiid is irrelevant. This thread is strictly directed about Jokic. I only made that comment about Embiid because I was in a troll mood and wanted to make a sarcastic remark. I'm sorry.

[um.]

How can a player be a "Franchise Player" when he hasn't even touched the post season.