2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I struggle to see how someone can watch Iverson play in his era , watch Thomas play in this soft era , and logically conclude to Thomas being better. It's not even close. The hate on Iverson is astonishing considering everything he has done for the game.

Who else is better than iverson ? wall ? lowry ? irving ? all 3 ? soon we will have people saying kemba is better

Read again. I'm saying his 2017 season is better than any Iverson season, not that he's more talented or better as a whole. I just don't get why IT isn't even top 10 player THIS year for many, while Iverson is many people's hero. It's illogical.

there's a thread just started saying Thomas is a superstar and you are calling him underrated...

Did you read the actual posts? Almost nobody on this forum thinks he is. In a previous MVP thread almost nobody thought he was even worthy of a look.

[10DayContract]

Iverson was getting sent to the floor whenever he went to the paint while Isaiah gets a foul call for getting looked at. Denying the rule changes and difference in physicality that favors perimeter players today compared to one of the most brutal defensive eras in basketball is just absurd.

This.

Let me preface my statement by saying: I think Iverson was overrated and I have no issue with comparing current IT to Allen Iverson.

With that said, I watched last night's game and it was remarkable how defenders were cowering in fear whenever IT barrelled into the paint. I wonder just how much more efficient Iverson would've been if the lane parted like the red sea whenever he drove inside.

No matter how you try to slice it, today's era is extremely beneficial for smaller guards like IT than it was 10-15 years ago.

This. I love basketball and I'm not trying to be nostalgic, but this era is incredible for smaller players. Last night, defenders were literally afraid to guard Thomas. When I watch guards play now, I scream, "DON'T TOUCH HIM" at the defenders on my TV screen. It's instinctive because I know getting too close to those guys will result in tons of foul calls. Thomas is great, very very great, but he literally CAN'T BE GUARDED. If he gets a high pick and roll, there's nothing you can do to him.

How can I, with a straight face, say that a man with 25,000 points wouldn't go crazy in this era? I'm sure Iverson would've understood that with an iso or a pick he'd be able to change the entire game.

[reapaman]

IT this year is better than Iverson ever was. He's way more efficient, a much better shooter, he actually makes his teammates better, better passer, he always looks like he knows what he's doing and has the game under control, higher BB IQ, and more clutch than almost anybody.

I also don't want to hear anything about IT benefiting from the era he played in over Iverson, when I had to constantly here people say Iverson was mostly able to do what he did while he was playing because "the big man was dieing out", "the rule change in 00-01 and beyond", "the NBA being weak in talent in the early 00's", ect ... People will always come up with some excuse why a current generation player can't be better than a past one, but it usually holds little weight especially in this case.

I watched Iverson his whole career and as good as he was I never though he could make any shot and come up big in any moment. With IT I would never bet against him ... too beast and too clutch. Iverson was more Westbrook where he will shoot you out of a game just as quick as he could win you one. Way too sporadic.

Iverson had to play against elite elite centers like prime Shaq, when IT drives to the lane he doesn't have to worry about monster big men like that.

That makes no sense considering for example that the 01 finals versus the Lakers was one of Iverson's most efficient series with him driving to the basket most of the games and he was way more efficient than he was against the Bucks who had way out of prime Erving Johnson for goodness sakes playing center.

No offense, but that whole big man defender or more physicality making it harder for elite players like Iverson is a load of crap and doesn't hole up when you actually analyze the whole situation. A tall mobile wing defender is way more of a threat to guys like IT and Iverson than a Big man since the wings are keeping them from gaining momentum. If a guy like Iverson has the step on you, their not worried about your big man's shot blocking attempt because their so good that they have so many ways to score. I remember Iverson shooting mutliple floaters in the paint in a row over Shaq and Shaq was helpless to stop him.

[DoItALL9]

IT this year is better than Iverson ever was. He's way more efficient, a much better shooter, he actually makes his teammates better, better passer, he always looks like he knows what he's doing and has the game under control, higher BB IQ, and more clutch than almost anybody.

I also don't want to hear anything about IT benefiting from the era he played in over Iverson, when I had to constantly here people say Iverson was mostly able to do what he did while he was playing because "the big man was dieing out", "the rule change in 00-01 and beyond", "the NBA being weak in talent in the early 00's", ect ... People will always come up with some excuse why a current generation player can't be better than a past one, but it usually holds little weight especially in this case.

I watched Iverson his whole career and as good as he was I never though he could make any shot and come up big in any moment. With IT I would never bet against him ... too beast and too clutch. Iverson was more Westbrook where he will shoot you out of a game just as quick as he could win you one. Way too sporadic.

Would you rather have Westbrook or Isaiah?

[OkcSinceSGA]

IT this year is better than Iverson ever was. He's way more efficient, a much better shooter, he actually makes his teammates better, better passer, he always looks like he knows what he's doing and has the game under control, higher BB IQ, and more clutch than almost anybody.

I also don't want to hear anything about IT benefiting from the era he played in over Iverson, when I had to constantly here people say Iverson was mostly able to do what he did while he was playing because "the big man was dieing out", "the rule change in 00-01 and beyond", "the NBA being weak in talent in the early 00's", ect ... People will always come up with some excuse why a current generation player can't be better than a past one, but it usually holds little weight especially in this case.

I watched Iverson his whole career and as good as he was I never though he could make any shot and come up big in any moment. With IT I would never bet against him ... too beast and too clutch. Iverson was more Westbrook where he will shoot you out of a game just as quick as he could win you one. Way too sporadic.

Would you rather have Westbrook or Isaiah?

How is that even remotely comparable? While Westbrook isn't as efficient as IT, he's WAY better all around than Iverson and yet still significantly more efficient than Iverson. That would be like if we were comparing Ray Allen and Vince Carter and out of nowhere you came in and said "How about Michael Jordan? Would you take him over Vince Carter"? It's 100% irrelevant and not fair to the discussion.

[DoItALL9]

IT this year is better than Iverson ever was. He's way more efficient, a much better shooter, he actually makes his teammates better, better passer, he always looks like he knows what he's doing and has the game under control, higher BB IQ, and more clutch than almost anybody.

I also don't want to hear anything about IT benefiting from the era he played in over Iverson, when I had to constantly here people say Iverson was mostly able to do what he did while he was playing because "the big man was dieing out", "the rule change in 00-01 and beyond", "the NBA being weak in talent in the early 00's", ect ... People will always come up with some excuse why a current generation player can't be better than a past one, but it usually holds little weight especially in this case.

I watched Iverson his whole career and as good as he was I never though he could make any shot and come up big in any moment. With IT I would never bet against him ... too beast and too clutch. Iverson was more Westbrook where he will shoot you out of a game just as quick as he could win you one. Way too sporadic.

Would you rather have Westbrook or Isaiah?

How is that even remotely comparable? While Westbrook isn't as efficient as IT, he's WAY better all around than Iverson and yet still significantly more efficient than Iverson. That would be like if we were comparing Ray Allen and Vince Carter and out of nowhere you came in and said "How about Michael Jordan? Would you take him over Vince Carter"? It's 100% irrelevant and not fair to the discussion.

What's your basis for him being significantly more efficient?
Westbrook isn't known as a lockdown defender nor was Iverson but both are far superior to Isaiah.

[Vee-Rex]

Iverson was getting sent to the floor whenever he went to the paint while Isaiah gets a foul call for getting looked at. Denying the rule changes and difference in physicality that favors perimeter players today compared to one of the most brutal defensive eras in basketball is just absurd.

This.

Let me preface my statement by saying: I think Iverson was overrated and I have no issue with comparing current IT to Allen Iverson.

With that said, I watched last night's game and it was remarkable how defenders were cowering in fear whenever IT barrelled into the paint. I wonder just how much more efficient Iverson would've been if the lane parted like the red sea whenever he drove inside.

No matter how you try to slice it, today's era is extremely beneficial for smaller guards like IT than it was 10-15 years ago.

I saw something else. IT has Harden's almost exclusive gift of rapid deceleration. He starts to drive and stops so fast that the defenders are almost always off balance. I don't think it's fear to foul him, they legit lack the foot speed to guard him and he's phenomenal of using screens to get switches. Half of his points last night seemed to be in these situations.

I don't watch him and feel like I do with Harden where he is taking shots to get fouls instead of shooting to actually score. Again if hard fouls is the argument why did Steve Nash do this so much more efficiently?

I really, really would suggest watching more IT then. I get the same disgusted type of feeling that I do when I watch Harden - but I imagine you haven't really had to deal with those frustrations with IT since your Clips don't play them often. Cavs play the Celtics all the time, including in the playoffs 2 years ago and it was incredible even then how many fta he got (8 per game with a WHOPPING .593 FTr). Meaning, he shot nearly .6 free throws for every single shot attempt. That's bonkers.

In defense of Harden - at least Harden legitimately draws contact, even though he's constantly gunning for it. IT is always gunning for contact AND he gets whistles any time he's nicked, slightly bumped, touched, etc... he exaggerates contact and flails and it's just a mess.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame IT at all. Hell, if the refs are gonna blow the whistle then do it. I admire his craftiness. But I did see Washington's bigs shrink in the paint, not even trying to contest his drives and instead simply trying not to get called for a foul.

Btw, where you been on the other forum, bro?

[reapaman]

IT this year is better than Iverson ever was. He's way more efficient, a much better shooter, he actually makes his teammates better, better passer, he always looks like he knows what he's doing and has the game under control, higher BB IQ, and more clutch than almost anybody.

I also don't want to hear anything about IT benefiting from the era he played in over Iverson, when I had to constantly here people say Iverson was mostly able to do what he did while he was playing because "the big man was dieing out", "the rule change in 00-01 and beyond", "the NBA being weak in talent in the early 00's", ect ... People will always come up with some excuse why a current generation player can't be better than a past one, but it usually holds little weight especially in this case.

I watched Iverson his whole career and as good as he was I never though he could make any shot and come up big in any moment. With IT I would never bet against him ... too beast and too clutch. Iverson was more Westbrook where he will shoot you out of a game just as quick as he could win you one. Way too sporadic.

Would you rather have Westbrook or Isaiah?

That not really equivilent, but I'm on record saying that I would take Isaiah over Westbrook as far back as when IT was in Phoenix. Look ... what really would make me scared as a opposing team is when I know that in the important moments, a specific player on the other team will pretty much always make the right plays whether it works or not. IT rarely makes the wrong play when you need him the most. Westbrook can get you into games in the blink of an eye, but you expect him to do something stupid to screw it up and make the wrong play to lose you the game if the ball is in his hands.

That the main reason I have to go with IT. IT is about winning the game no matter what and Westbrook appears to be more about drawing more attention to himself.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Would you rather have Westbrook or Isaiah?

How is that even remotely comparable? While Westbrook isn't as efficient as IT, he's WAY better all around than Iverson and yet still significantly more efficient than Iverson. That would be like if we were comparing Ray Allen and Vince Carter and out of nowhere you came in and said "How about Michael Jordan? Would you take him over Vince Carter"? It's 100% irrelevant and not fair to the discussion.

What's your basis for him being significantly more efficient?
Westbrook isn't known as a lockdown defender nor was Iverson but both are far superior to Isaiah.

Lockdown or not Westbrook is a far better defender, rebounder and playmaker than Iverson. Then you throw in up to 5% better TS peak vs peak. So yes, Westbrook is far better. Iverson isn't.

[OkcSinceSGA]

This.

Let me preface my statement by saying: I think Iverson was overrated and I have no issue with comparing current IT to Allen Iverson.

With that said, I watched last night's game and it was remarkable how defenders were cowering in fear whenever IT barrelled into the paint. I wonder just how much more efficient Iverson would've been if the lane parted like the red sea whenever he drove inside.

No matter how you try to slice it, today's era is extremely beneficial for smaller guards like IT than it was 10-15 years ago.

I saw something else. IT has Harden's almost exclusive gift of rapid deceleration. He starts to drive and stops so fast that the defenders are almost always off balance. I don't think it's fear to foul him, they legit lack the foot speed to guard him and he's phenomenal of using screens to get switches. Half of his points last night seemed to be in these situations.

I don't watch him and feel like I do with Harden where he is taking shots to get fouls instead of shooting to actually score. Again if hard fouls is the argument why did Steve Nash do this so much more efficiently?

I really, really would suggest watching more IT then. I get the same disgusted type of feeling that I do when I watch Harden - but I imagine you haven't really had to deal with those frustrations with IT since your Clips don't play them often. Cavs play the Celtics all the time, including in the playoffs 2 years ago and it was incredible even then how many fta he got (8 per game with a WHOPPING .593 FTr). Meaning, he shot nearly .6 free throws for every single shot attempt. That's bonkers.

In defense of Harden - at least Harden legitimately draws contact, even though he's constantly gunning for it. IT is always gunning for contact AND he gets whistles any time he's nicked, slightly bumped, touched, etc... he exaggerates contact and flails and it's just a mess.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame IT at all. Hell, if the refs are gonna blow the whistle then do it. I admire his craftiness. But I did see Washington's bigs shrink in the paint, not even trying to contest his drives and instead simply trying not to get called for a foul.

Btw, where you been on the other forum, bro?

It died out so I stopped using. I agree with you that I deal with Harden more as a west coast team fan, so maybe it's sheer volume. Plus IT always destroys the Clippers, even without ref help. As for Harden legitness, grabbing a defenders arm and pulling it is about the most fake foul I can think of and he does it multiple times per game.

But either way what Isaiah does at his size and with his supporting cast amazes me.

[slothrop8]

Offensively it's pretty clear to me 2017 IT was better than any version of Iverson. However, the original post is a little too dismissive of the defensive end of the floor. The advanced defensive metrics are still evolving in my opinion - but the one's we do have suggest IT is an abysmal defender and my personal eye test agrees. AI had good defenders around him in the early 2000s - but he still played a ton of minutes on some really good defensive teams. In the interest of full disclosure, I strongly dislike both of these players - so I'm reasonably unbiased I would say. I would perhaps lean toward 2017 IT, but I do worry I'm undervaluing how great a defensive detriment IT can be.

You may also be overrating the value of PG defense.

I don't think so - Boston's defense gets alot better when IT is OFF the court and it got way better last year too when he was OFF - and when push comes to shove you can get what you want against him on that end. I'd be pretty surprised if what the ON/OFF splits and RPM (though I too am a bit of RPM skeptic as someone else posted above) say proves to be a coincidence. I'm still leaning IT - I'm with you OP - but his defensive issues shouldn't be dismissed out of hand in my opinion.

[smallgains]

Iverson has some crazy scoring stats in reg and playoffs.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Offensively it's pretty clear to me 2017 IT was better than any version of Iverson. However, the original post is a little too dismissive of the defensive end of the floor. The advanced defensive metrics are still evolving in my opinion - but the one's we do have suggest IT is an abysmal defender and my personal eye test agrees. AI had good defenders around him in the early 2000s - but he still played a ton of minutes on some really good defensive teams. In the interest of full disclosure, I strongly dislike both of these players - so I'm reasonably unbiased I would say. I would perhaps lean toward 2017 IT, but I do worry I'm undervaluing how great a defensive detriment IT can be.

You may also be overrating the value of PG defense.

I don't think so - Boston's defense gets alot better when IT is OFF the court and it got way better last year too when he was OFF - and when push comes to shove you can get what you want against him on that end. I'd be pretty surprised if what the ON/OFF splits and RPM (though I too am a bit of RPM skeptic as someone else posted above) say proves to be a coincidence. I'm still leaning IT - I'm with you OP - but his defensive issues shouldn't be dismissed out of hand in my opinion.

Fair enough.

[sikma42]

Last full season in Philly, which was after the rule changes and prob the last bit of AIs prime, he averaged 33 points 7 assists on 45% shooting.

That season was better than any of his previous seasons including his MVP. Guess it's just a coincidence that his scoring just jumped up along side all the other perimeter players. He would have been an entirely different beast at 25 playing under these rules.


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[Em1]

Let Iverson play in this soft ass league. He would have loved not to be touched.

[RaptorRed]

IT this year is better than Iverson ever was. He's way more efficient, a much better shooter, he actually makes his teammates better, better passer, he always looks like he knows what he's doing and has the game under control, higher BB IQ, and more clutch than almost anybody.

I also don't want to hear anything about IT benefiting from the era he played in over Iverson, when I had to constantly here people say Iverson was mostly able to do what he did while he was playing because "the big man was dieing out", "the rule change in 00-01 and beyond", "the NBA being weak in talent in the early 00's", ect ... People will always come up with some excuse why a current generation player can't be better than a past one, but it usually holds little weight especially in this case.

I watched Iverson his whole career and as good as he was I never though he could make any shot and come up big in any moment. With IT I would never bet against him ... too beast and too clutch. Iverson was more Westbrook where he will shoot you out of a game just as quick as he could win you one. Way too sporadic.

Would you rather have Westbrook or Isaiah?

That not really equivilent, but I'm on record saying that I would take Isaiah over Westbrook as far back as when IT was in Phoenix. Look ... what really would make me scared as a opposing team is when I know that in the important moments, a specific player on the other team will pretty much always make the right plays whether it works or not. IT rarely makes the wrong play when you need him the most. Westbrook can get you into games in the blink of an eye, but you expect him to do something stupid to screw it up and make the wrong play to lose you the game if the ball is in his hands.

That the main reason I have to go with IT. IT is about winning the game no matter what and Westbrook appears to be more about drawing more attention to himself.

LOOOOOOL I thought this thread was ridiculous but this post takes the cake

[DoItALL9]

How is that even remotely comparable? While Westbrook isn't as efficient as IT, he's WAY better all around than Iverson and yet still significantly more efficient than Iverson. That would be like if we were comparing Ray Allen and Vince Carter and out of nowhere you came in and said "How about Michael Jordan? Would you take him over Vince Carter"? It's 100% irrelevant and not fair to the discussion.

What's your basis for him being significantly more efficient?
Westbrook isn't known as a lockdown defender nor was Iverson but both are far superior to Isaiah.

Lockdown or not Westbrook is a far better defender, rebounder and playmaker than Iverson. Then you throw in up to 5% better TS peak vs peak. So yes, Westbrook is far better. Iverson isn't.

What're you basing him being a far better defender on?

How is that even remotely comparable? While Westbrook isn't as efficient as IT, he's WAY better all around than Iverson and yet still significantly more efficient than Iverson. That would be like if we were comparing Ray Allen and Vince Carter and out of nowhere you came in and said "How about Michael Jordan? Would you take him over Vince Carter"? It's 100% irrelevant and not fair to the discussion.

What's your basis for him being significantly more efficient?
Westbrook isn't known as a lockdown defender nor was Iverson but both are far superior to Isaiah.

Lockdown or not Westbrook is a far better defender, rebounder and playmaker than Iverson. Then you throw in up to 5% better TS peak vs peak. So yes, Westbrook is far better. Iverson isn't.

[Hipster Doofus]

Isaiah Thomas vs. Allen Iverson?

LOL, is this a joke? No contest. Iverson ate the entire league alive, including giants in the middle, for over a decade. Thomas scores 53 points in a single playoff game and everyone is riding his ... "train".

AI was an eleven time all star, league MVP, four-time scoring champion, completely changed the NBA landscape so that fellow little midgets like Thomas could follow suit and be like him.

Go ask Wade and Thomas and Chris Paul and Jamal Crawford etc etc etc who they molded their game after. In ten years from now, I doubt many players in the NBA will say "I molded my game based on Isaiah Thomas."

Leave legends alone, especially first-ballot Hall of Famers like AI.

[DoItALL9]

How is that even remotely comparable? While Westbrook isn't as efficient as IT, he's WAY better all around than Iverson and yet still significantly more efficient than Iverson. That would be like if we were comparing Ray Allen and Vince Carter and out of nowhere you came in and said "How about Michael Jordan? Would you take him over Vince Carter"? It's 100% irrelevant and not fair to the discussion.

What's your basis for him being significantly more efficient?
Westbrook isn't known as a lockdown defender nor was Iverson but both are far superior to Isaiah.

Lockdown or not Westbrook is a far better defender, rebounder and playmaker than Iverson. Then you throw in up to 5% better TS peak vs peak. So yes, Westbrook is far better. Iverson isn't.

Do you consider Westbrook a superior playmaker to IT4?
Do a few Westbrook assists and rebounds makeup for his (Iverson TYPE) shot selection /efficiency for you to rank him over IT4?

[Forbes]

I understand the effiency case people will always make for IT.

But this is a totally different era of basketball defensively. Iverson no doubt would do anything he wants in this league. Look at how Damn near no one can stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Iverson wouldnt be able to be guarded in this league. By the time he gets to the rim, it's either a foul or he's scoring majority of the time.

It's just a tough comparison because we won't know the truth.