Are there any centers today who wouldn't get beaten into submission by Ben Wallace?

[cupcakesnake]

Well, I said he'd be fine doing it. So I don't think we disagree that much, but remember it is harder to guard the ball now. It would be harder for him now than then and he'd be doing it a LOT more.

I honestly think he'd be even more celebrated defensively in today's game. No one talked about his quicks and his ability to move laterally and get his hands on balls. That being said... his offensive limitations would be even more problematic nowadays so overall he's probably lucky to have played in an era where teams were ok playing multiple non-shooters in lineups.

I'm not sure anyone outside of Russell and Mutombo were more well thought of as defenders ever. Honestly Wallace was greatly overrated in his era, not because he wasn't great but nobody was ever THAT great.

Well Ben Wallace didn't make the hall of fame this past year. Despite you thinking of him as a top 3 most credited defender of all time he isn't even a first ballot hall of famer. I'm glad you give him enough credit.

[vxmike]

Well, I said he'd be fine doing it. So I don't think we disagree that much, but remember it is harder to guard the ball now. It would be harder for him now than then and he'd be doing it a LOT more.

I honestly think he'd be even more celebrated defensively in today's game. No one talked about his quicks and his ability to move laterally and get his hands on balls. That being said... his offensive limitations would be even more problematic nowadays so overall he's probably lucky to have played in an era where teams were ok playing multiple non-shooters in lineups.

I'm not sure anyone outside of Russell and Mutombo were more well thought of as defenders ever. Honestly Wallace was greatly overrated in his era, not because he wasn't great but nobody was ever THAT great.

Yes, history looks upon Ben Wallace as better than he was. He was devastating but he also played with a whole team of great defenders that made him look better. Put him on an island with a PG like Rose and a PF like Ryan Anderson up front and he wouldn't have the same effect. He had the luxury of helping because he could rely on all his teammates to cover the space he left.

I'd take prime Hakeem or Mourning as defensive Centers over Wallace.

[Lana Del Rey]

Jokic would make Ben Wallace look like DJ Mbenga.

[Antinomy]

So far I have learned in this thread that Wallace, who won back to back DPOY, probably a top 10 defender of all time in his prime would get simply destroyed by every young big in the league today and 31 year old pre miami shaq was old fat and ready to retire. Also there where no bigs like KG that could shoot back then so he would get killed from the outside. Good to know these things.

After I saw the "Kobe < Curry" thread I almost had to block this site from my browser.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Rudy doesn't score but Ben also doesn't score. Rudy is the new Ben minus the hair.

[Prez]

Rudy doesn't score but Ben also doesn't score. Rudy is the new Ben minus the hair.

Gobert just isn't a skilled go-to scorer. He's still good offensively overall and puts up decent numbers on great efficiency.

[DarthTeufel]

Is there even any real evidence of Ben Wallace actually being a real tough guy? Other than just yelling at Ron Artest at malice at the palace?

Feel like this is a case of Kimbo Slice syndrome. intimidates people moreso for their appearence(tall muscular dark skinned black dude with a big afro(the beard in Kimbos case)) yet merely average in the toughguy department.

Bill Laimbeer for one appearence wise looks much less intimidating, but was probably the toughest guy in NBA history. Bird, and Stockton too.

[stilldropin20]

james johnson would kicks his arse

[Kabookalu]

I honestly think he'd be even more celebrated defensively in today's game. No one talked about his quicks and his ability to move laterally and get his hands on balls. That being said... his offensive limitations would be even more problematic nowadays so overall he's probably lucky to have played in an era where teams were ok playing multiple non-shooters in lineups.

I'm not sure anyone outside of Russell and Mutombo were more well thought of as defenders ever. Honestly Wallace was greatly overrated in his era, not because he wasn't great but nobody was ever THAT great.

Yes, history looks upon Ben Wallace as better than he was. He was devastating but he also played with a whole team of great defenders that made him look better. Put him on an island with a PG like Rose and a PF like Ryan Anderson up front and he wouldn't have the same effect. He had the luxury of helping because he could rely on all his teammates to cover the space he left.

I'd take prime Hakeem or Mourning as defensive Centers over Wallace.

Now this is just disrespectful to Ben Wallace. You have it the other way around, his teammates were allowed to relax and gamble on defense BECAUSE of Ben's ability to cover a large amount of space in a short amount of time. Ben's speciality was being able to go from point A to point B and prime himself in a position to block a shot. People here are acting like he just camped in the paint and waited for players to come to him. No, again it's the other way around, he went to them. The more that I think about it the more I realize that Big Ben is a lot like Draymond Green on defense except with substantially better hops and a longer wingspan. I've never seen a big man block so many jumpshots as much as Big Ben did.

Who did he have that was an exceptional defender in Detroit before 2004? In 2000 before the Hill trade their defensive rating was 105.8, that slotted them 21st in the league. The following year with Ben Wallace coming over it was 101.8 where they finished 8th, and that's with Lindsey Hunter (one of the peskiest point guard defenders ever who will only be remembered during his generation) being traded away. I'm looking at that roster right now and there's not a single player outside of Ben that's more than just being above average at best.

If there was one single block that defined the average Ben Wallace block, it'd be this one:

2:05

Watch on YouTube

Those are the out of nowhere blocks that Ben made a career out of. The way he played defense was actually very modern since he wasn't glued to one location; his mobility, vertical, defensive positioning was well ahead of his time that only now other players are catching up to. The player you'd take over Wallace, Mourning, would be the kind of big man defender the league would phase out. He'd still be elite, just not as effective, while Wallace might arguably be even more effective today.

[Kabookalu]

Is there even any real evidence of Ben Wallace actually being a real tough guy? Other than just yelling at Ron Artest at malice at the palace?

Feel like this is a case of Kimbo Slice syndrome. intimidates people moreso for their appearence(tall muscular dark skinned black dude with a big afro(the beard in Kimbos case)) yet merely average in the toughguy department.

Bill Laimbeer for one appearence wise looks much less intimidating, but was probably the toughest guy in NBA history. Bird, and Stockton too.

Ben was absolutely the enforcer. Once the Pistons lost him, even though they were still really good defensively, they lost the toughness that defined them.

Laimbeer toughest guy in history? Don't know about that. He's a lot like Tyler Hansbrough, dirty, resorted to cheap tricks, and wanted to do everything to get under your skin. I guess that's tough, but he annoyed players more than he intimidated them.

[Dupp]

james johnson would kicks his arse

at table tennis maybe

[Pure_Basketball]

Jordan goat? OP would be able to sell a good case for Wallace. The overrating is real.

[Ballings7]

I don't think any current center beats Wallace down low. The problem here is that strength as a low post defender is becoming unimportant as offenses have found more efficient ways to attack.

Wallace would have no hope of matching Draymond Green's game impact. He'd struggle to defend him in space and it's not reasonable to ask Wallace to beat anyone offensively.

Ben would be more than capable of defending Draymond in space. Ben had great lateral quickness, great hands, quick feet, length. I think he would be perfect in slowing Draymond down. Offensively he would do nothing but defensively I cant think of a big he couldnt handle.

Exactly. That's what made him so great, and helped make up for his lack of real height. 6'7", 6'8". Sounds like some people didn't actually watch him with any real consistency or frequency.

Ben Wallace could absolutely guard perimeter/tweener bigs. Draymond Green isn't skilled enough offensively like a Kawhi or LeBron or Durant or Carmelo, etc. to torch Ben.

[Uncle Mxy]

Sure, Ben Wallace came from "enforcer school" -- Oakley's alma mater -- but he wasn't an enforcer. Even when those Pistons had true enforcers on the team, like Dale Davis, they were never really used as such. I doubt he'd be as laughable as Kareem A-J the enforcer (takes martial arts training from Bruce Lee and breaks his hand sucker-punching a scrub). But, we've never seen Big Ben pound the snot out of someone, KO someone with one punch, hip-check someone into the stands, etc. Not all specimens are fighters, even if they look the part.

[Uncle Mxy]

Now this is just disrespectful to Ben Wallace. You have it the other way around, his teammates were allowed to relax and gamble on defense BECAUSE of Ben's ability to cover a large amount of space in a short amount of time. Ben's speciality was being able to go from point A to point B and prime himself in a position to block a shot. People here are acting like he just camped in the paint and waited for players to come to him. No, again it's the other way around, he went to them.

Prime Ben Wallace IS a zone defense.

[The Bronx]

Marc Gasol

[NZB2323]

Stretch 5s wouldn't get beaten into submission.

[dhsilv2]

I'm not sure anyone outside of Russell and Mutombo were more well thought of as defenders ever. Honestly Wallace was greatly overrated in his era, not because he wasn't great but nobody was ever THAT great.

Yes, history looks upon Ben Wallace as better than he was. He was devastating but he also played with a whole team of great defenders that made him look better. Put him on an island with a PG like Rose and a PF like Ryan Anderson up front and he wouldn't have the same effect. He had the luxury of helping because he could rely on all his teammates to cover the space he left.

I'd take prime Hakeem or Mourning as defensive Centers over Wallace.

Now this is just disrespectful to Ben Wallace. You have it the other way around, his teammates were allowed to relax and gamble on defense BECAUSE of Ben's ability to cover a large amount of space in a short amount of time. Ben's speciality was being able to go from point A to point B and prime himself in a position to block a shot. People here are acting like he just camped in the paint and waited for players to come to him. No, again it's the other way around, he went to them. The more that I think about it the more I realize that Big Ben is a lot like Draymond Green on defense except with substantially better hops and a longer wingspan. I've never seen a big man block so many jumpshots as much as Big Ben did.

Who did he have that was an exceptional defender in Detroit before 2004? In 2000 before the Hill trade their defensive rating was 105.8, that slotted them 21st in the league. The following year with Ben Wallace coming over it was 101.8 where they finished 8th, and that's with Lindsey Hunter (one of the peskiest point guard defenders ever who will only be remembered during his generation) being traded away. I'm looking at that roster right now and there's not a single player outside of Ben that's more than just being above average at best.

If there was one single block that defined the average Ben Wallace block, it'd be this one:

2:05

Watch on YouTube

Those are the out of nowhere blocks that Ben made a career out of. The way he played defense was actually very modern since he wasn't glued to one location; his mobility, vertical, defensive positioning was well ahead of his time that only now other players are catching up to. The player you'd take over Wallace, Mourning, would be the kind of big man defender the league would phase out. He'd still be elite, just not as effective, while Wallace might arguably be even more effective today.

Sheed was considered a great defender everywhere he went. Prince was a GREAT an ball defender. Billups was one of the bigger and stronger defensive point guards in the league. Hamilton was the only guy on that starting lineup who wasn't a well above average defender.

Unless you think Wallace walks on water, literally, then he was overrated.

[dhsilv2]

Is there even any real evidence of Ben Wallace actually being a real tough guy? Other than just yelling at Ron Artest at malice at the palace?

Feel like this is a case of Kimbo Slice syndrome. intimidates people moreso for their appearence(tall muscular dark skinned black dude with a big afro(the beard in Kimbos case)) yet merely average in the toughguy department.

Bill Laimbeer for one appearence wise looks much less intimidating, but was probably the toughest guy in NBA history. Bird, and Stockton too.

Wallace was intimidating. As they say, speaks softly and carry a big stick. Sometimes the fear of someone is better than actions.

[dhsilv2]

I honestly think he'd be even more celebrated defensively in today's game. No one talked about his quicks and his ability to move laterally and get his hands on balls. That being said... his offensive limitations would be even more problematic nowadays so overall he's probably lucky to have played in an era where teams were ok playing multiple non-shooters in lineups.

I'm not sure anyone outside of Russell and Mutombo were more well thought of as defenders ever. Honestly Wallace was greatly overrated in his era, not because he wasn't great but nobody was ever THAT great.

Yes, history looks upon Ben Wallace as better than he was. He was devastating but he also played with a whole team of great defenders that made him look better. Put him on an island with a PG like Rose and a PF like Ryan Anderson up front and he wouldn't have the same effect. He had the luxury of helping because he could rely on all his teammates to cover the space he left.

I'd take prime Hakeem or Mourning as defensive Centers over Wallace.

The real shame was that Duncan was imo better at times than him, but was over looked because of Bowen. Granted Wallace's best year or two were likely better than Duncan's, but still for a guy like Duncan to never win the DPOY award is just awful. I also think in those days playing less than 38 or so minutes a game hurt Duncan where as today fans understand that less is more with great players.