The Warriors reportedly think Russell Westbrook plays a style that's easy to guard

[John Murdoch]

Have you guys watched Huestis so far? Could be the exact 3 and d guy they need very solid pick. Would love to see them trade for a guy like Courtney Lee too. Its true Westrbooks approach is extremely predictable however when he has shooters it will be similar to guarding Lebron imo

[MGB8]

I'm kind of chuckling here. The Thunder's spacing situation hasn't been particularly good since Durant left. And even before Durant, frankly, when it was a 2 man offensive team.

In the 2015-16 Thunder-Warriors series, Westbrook put up 27pt/11as/7rb on a poor .40 / .32... but that was better shooting, overall, than Durant's .42, .29 in his 30pt/8rb/3as.

Roberson shot very well from 2 and 3 because he was basically left alone to focus on Russ (.52/.44) while Ibaka wasn't really able to take advantage (12/8 on .47/.34). Waiters didn't do much off the bench.

Roberson is still there but somewhat improved. You lose Ibaka's defense, but gain Melo being who will 100% be able to exploit the lesser attention that was given to Ibaka... and better depth with Patterson and tweaner defensive forward Jerami Grant.

Abrines is an upgrade from that year's version of Waiters. Heck, Ferguson might be an upgrade over that year's Waiters.

Now, Durant is better than Barnes (though Barnes may be a better defender) and George isn't as good as Durant, either - but the notion that the Warriors are going to be able to bottle up Westbrook on this particular team I think is wishful thinking.

[Doctor MJ]

Over the past three seasons (so, since the Warriors became great), Westbrook's stats vs. Golden State:

76-225 shooting: 33.7 FG%
ORTG: 100
99 AST / 55 TOV

The proof is in the pudding. For whatever reason, Russ hasn't done well offensively vs. the Dubs.

He has had struggles and part of it is that he puts his head down trying to get to the rim, but I've also seen refs allow us a lot of contact against Russ when he should be getting calls. Still he has had some struggles in the half court. He also gets trigger happy with the 3 ball to try to stop the bleeding if we go on a run and hit 3s.

General rule here is that if your point guard “puts his head down”, he has blindness issues, to state the tautological.

Westbrook playing like he did is someone essentially specializing in doing well against non-contenders, and people are WAY too impressed with it.

Does not mean Westbrook can play no other way, just means he won’t lead a serious threat until he plays in a way that’s less impressive to the fan boys.


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[I_Like_Dirt]

The thing people miss about the Thunder is that they relied more on their defense (10th) than their offense (16th) last season. And historically, adding a few other players who aren't inefficient but are more volume scorers than top-end efficiency scorers together doesn't make the offense all that much better. Durant was different, because he could flat out score, but Westbrook isn't quite in his class as a scorer.

I don't actually think the Thunder are going to be significantly better offensively this coming season. People get so focused on the names they added that they let reality pass them by. Neither George nor Melo do things offensively that Westbrook doesn't already do, and while they now have more quality volume scorers, they lost their most efficient scorer in Kanter. I think they're about even offensively this coming season.

Where I think they'll be better is defensively, where they're clearly moving towards embracing small ball, which tends to return exponential results with the fewer holes that need to be covered for - basically, if you have a few guys who aren't quick enough to play the team defensive scheme, then the guys trying to play team defense will look worse and the guys who are covering for the breakdowns will look better, but when there aren't breakdowns to that degree, the guys covering for breakdowns start to look worse. Paul George in particular, but even Melo, should actually be improvements defensively for them. I don't think they'll be a top 5 defensive team, but they'll be close.

So I really don't begrudge the Warriors from thinking Westbrook will be easy to guard. Besides the data already out there on how the Warriors defend him and other similar players, I also don't think offense is going to be the strength of the Thunder this coming season. I also don't think any team can seriously compete with the Warriors. It just isn't in the cards. The efforts of the Thunder, Rockets, Spurs, and Cavs are admirable, but they won't be enough, health permitting.

[andrewww]

The thing people miss about the Thunder is that they relied more on their defense (10th) than their offense (16th) last season. And historically, adding a few other players who aren't inefficient but are more volume scorers than top-end efficiency scorers together doesn't make the offense all that much better. Durant was different, because he could flat out score, but Westbrook isn't quite in his class as a scorer.

I don't actually think the Thunder are going to be significantly better offensively this coming season. People get so focused on the names they added that they let reality pass them by. Neither George nor Melo do things offensively that Westbrook doesn't already do, and while they now have more quality volume scorers, they lost their most efficient scorer in Kanter. I think they're about even offensively this coming season.

Where I think they'll be better is defensively, where they're clearly moving towards embracing small ball, which tends to return exponential results with the fewer holes that need to be covered for - basically, if you have a few guys who aren't quick enough to play the team defensive scheme, then the guys trying to play team defense will look worse and the guys who are covering for the breakdowns will look better, but when there aren't breakdowns to that degree, the guys covering for breakdowns start to look worse. Paul George in particular, but even Melo, should actually be improvements defensively for them. I don't think they'll be a top 5 defensive team, but they'll be close.

So I really don't begrudge the Warriors from thinking Westbrook will be easy to guard. Besides the data already out there on how the Warriors defend him and other similar players, I also don't think offense is going to be the strength of the Thunder this coming season. I also don't think any team can seriously compete with the Warriors. It just isn't in the cards. The efforts of the Thunder, Rockets, Spurs, and Cavs are admirable, but they won't be enough, health permitting.

I think OKC will be better offensively this season, even if Westbrook/PG13/Melo don't integrate to their full potential. Just having multiple threats by parking PG13/Melo at the 3 point line will lead to more driving lanes for Westbrook. From what we've seen in preseason, one of PG13/Melo will need to play the Ray Allen/Chris Bosh/Kevin Love role and that's yet TBD. I get the sense that they will be more Pierce/KG/Allen like in terms of their overall team offense...pretty good but at times prone to being stale by virtue of not having the offensive synergy we've seen from The Warriors or Spurs, or even the big 3 Heat/triangle offense Lakers.

Defensively they will be better in the starting lineup with 3 plus defenders. Melo at the 4 also makes him less of a liability.

[lambchop]

Bron essentially averaged a triple double in 3 finals series versus the warriors. In fact the dubs figured him out so well that they called durant immediately after their finals loss in order to figure him out even more.

Ha right they "figured out" adding another superstar would beat Lebron. Im sure much analytics were done to come to that conclusion.

Kind of how Lebron figured out the league by stacking the deck for half his career?

Who ever claimed bron figured out the league? Dude already lost multiple finals.

[Yoshun]

The thing people miss about the Thunder is that they relied more on their defense (10th) than their offense (16th) last season. And historically, adding a few other players who aren't inefficient but are more volume scorers than top-end efficiency scorers together doesn't make the offense all that much better. Durant was different, because he could flat out score, but Westbrook isn't quite in his class as a scorer.

I don't actually think the Thunder are going to be significantly better offensively this coming season. People get so focused on the names they added that they let reality pass them by. Neither George nor Melo do things offensively that Westbrook doesn't already do, and while they now have more quality volume scorers, they lost their most efficient scorer in Kanter. I think they're about even offensively this coming season.

Where I think they'll be better is defensively, where they're clearly moving towards embracing small ball, which tends to return exponential results with the fewer holes that need to be covered for - basically, if you have a few guys who aren't quick enough to play the team defensive scheme, then the guys trying to play team defense will look worse and the guys who are covering for the breakdowns will look better, but when there aren't breakdowns to that degree, the guys covering for breakdowns start to look worse. Paul George in particular, but even Melo, should actually be improvements defensively for them. I don't think they'll be a top 5 defensive team, but they'll be close.

So I really don't begrudge the Warriors from thinking Westbrook will be easy to guard. Besides the data already out there on how the Warriors defend him and other similar players, I also don't think offense is going to be the strength of the Thunder this coming season. I also don't think any team can seriously compete with the Warriors. It just isn't in the cards. The efforts of the Thunder, Rockets, Spurs, and Cavs are admirable, but they won't be enough, health permitting.

I think this underestimates the shooting, especially the catch and shoot, ability of Melo and George. George shot just over 39% from 3 last year and posted a TS of just under 59%. They both actually play well off the ball and are superior shooters to almost anyone the Thunder had on the team last season. Melo is inefficient, but no more or less than Oladipo. I agree that a lot of the Melo talk is name value, though again, he provides another solid shooter. Paul George is light years ahead of anything they had on offense last season and he doesn't need the ball to be particularly effective. Kanter will hurt their offense, that's true, but the trade off is Paul George's shooting. Paul George, contrary to popular belief, was not simply a volume scorer last season. It will also take a lot of pressure off of Westbrook which will hopefully mean he won't have the insane usage he had last season and won't have the shoulder nearly the entire offense. I expect their offense to be at the later end of top 10 (9 or 10) or slightly beyond it (11 or 12).

[Wallace_Wallace]

I think it's more of a mental game. Similar to the Jordan Rules, the Pistons used the "Michael wanted to do everything" narrative and played that against him. Russ' is at his worst when he's frustrated. He's going to productive either way, but when he's frustrated, it'll lead to turnovers and forced shots (low FG%), which plays exactly into GSW's hands.

[Harry Garris]

Sure, Westbrook's style of play isn't difficult to figure out how to guard. The problem is having the personnel to actually do it. I don't think the Warriors are basketball geniuses to figure out how to stop Westbrook, they just happen to employ much better defensive players than other teams do.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Over the past three seasons (so, since the Warriors became great), Westbrook's stats vs. Golden State:

76-225 shooting: 33.7 FG%
ORTG: 100
99 AST / 55 TOV

The proof is in the pudding. For whatever reason, Russ hasn't done well offensively vs. the Dubs.

This proof pudding is more variance than proof IMO. I'll take a chocolate pudding pie TYVM.

[Michael Lucky]

This isn't ground breaking. You force the guy to take wide open jump-shots instead of creating. Let him beat you with his jumper. I've seen enough of Westbrook to know that he'll eventually tire out by the fourth quarter.

[donaldtrump_00]

Klay is an elite defender, and also Westbrook just knows one speed so there's that.

I like klay. very pure shooting stroke. probably will be the 2nd option in gs in 2 or 3 more years when steph starts to age. but on defe nse hes kinda overated. kyrie destroyed him at will. he lit up when he seen that gs was going to have him guard him one on one. elite defenders don't get beat that bad like he did against kyrie. jimmy butler is a elite defender. klay is a good defensive player. hes to slow to keep up with players like beal, or mcolloum I cant pronounce his name from the blazers. hes out matched against any explosive pg or sg who know how to create there own offense.

[88' Draft Pick]

The thing people miss about the Thunder is that they relied more on their defense (10th) than their offense (16th) last season. And historically, adding a few other players who aren't inefficient but are more volume scorers than top-end efficiency scorers together doesn't make the offense all that much better. Durant was different, because he could flat out score, but Westbrook isn't quite in his class as a scorer.

I don't actually think the Thunder are going to be significantly better offensively this coming season. People get so focused on the names they added that they let reality pass them by. Neither George nor Melo do things offensively that Westbrook doesn't already do, and while they now have more quality volume scorers, they lost their most efficient scorer in Kanter. I think they're about even offensively this coming season.

I think OKC will be better offensively this season, even if Westbrook/PG13/Melo don't integrate to their full potential. Just having multiple threats by parking PG13/Melo at the 3 point line will lead to more driving lanes for Westbrook. From what we've seen in preseason, one of PG13/Melo will need to play the Ray Allen/Chris Bosh/Kevin Love role and that's yet TBD. I get the sense that they will be more Pierce/KG/Allen like in terms of their overall team offense...pretty good but at times prone to being stale by virtue of not having the offensive synergy we've seen from The Warriors or Spurs, or even the big 3 Heat/triangle offense Lakers.

Defensively they will be better in the starting lineup with 3 plus defenders. Melo at the 4 also makes him less of a liability.

The offense will be better and more efficient. Melo and George are excellent 3 point shooters and are more than capable of catch and shoot 3s all day long. Who could do that last year for OKC? Pretty much nobody. Abrines, PPatt, Huestis, Felton can knock 3s down too. The improvements on 3 point shooting alone will make the offense better.

The improvements on defense will also lead to a few more easy buckets in transition with Westbrook leading the break. You also have to think of the backup point guard position. Possibly the biggest upgrade of the offseason. (Semaj Christian and Cameron Payne were flat-out not NBA players) Ray Felton has looked really good this pre-season. He can create, shoot and run an offense. Last season the offense was absolute garbage when Westbrook left the floor. Especially in the playoffs when they couldn't play Kanter. Dont think that'll happen as much this year. They're gonna be better on both ends of the floor.

[CS707]

Warriors are just in Westbrook's head. He can't help it, there is no middle ground.

I expect the next time they play he'll go full Gilbert Arenas and barely shot the ball just to prove a point.

[88' Draft Pick]

Warriors are just in Westbrook's head. He can't help it, there is no middle ground.

I expect the next time they play he'll go full Gilbert Arenas and barely shot the ball just to prove a point.

Nah I doubt it.

[OptionZero]

This will get lost because there's too many Russ stans/GSW haters out there that just want to talk out of their ass, but . .

1) The original discussion came from Zach Lowe/Ryan Russillo on Lowe Post. No one said Russ is easy to guard for the average NBA team - the discussion is quite specifically that GSW thinks Russ is easy to guard for THEM

2) GSW is correct. Russ hasn't done jack against them, even when he had KD for 13 of the last 17 matchups or something like t hat

If you hate GSW, or you think Steph is "just a shooter," or you think Russ is really awesome, stop reading























One of the keys to beating GSW is to control tempo. Get into a track meet with them and u are down 20 in 3 minutes.
OFFENSIVE EFFICIENCY IN THE HALF COURT IS CRUCIAL.

GSW, when it cares, will switch relentlessly on AND off ball, so you're getting zero penetration
Even when you do get penetration, they have length on the perimeter, they're super smart, and Draymond Green is an alien, so any openings disappear. They hedge, recover, close out, recover more better than anyone (when they give a ****)
That means teams with limited playmaking have zero shot at beating them - look at the Jazz, or even the Blazers last year, that had only 1-2 dudes that could attack off the bounce. GSW swallows those teams up

However

If you have big power wing that is strong enough to beat even GSW's fleet of wing defenders one-on-one, you can force the game to a halt, play in the half court, kill the clock, and STILL get either a bucket OR free throws, you just kill all the tempo in the game and it sucks GSW's spirit away

The 2015 Finals were the most instructive in this regard. Lebron was forced to adopt an ugly form of offense where it was extremely iso heavy, backing down HB/Klay/Iguodala, and get a buncha dudes in foul trouble, score on his own, or open up offensive rebounding opportunities for TT.

Kawhi Leonard poses a similar problem for GSW, because over the years he's been effective against them in the half court and you combine that with the spurs generally being a super disciplined team that doesn't screw up offensively or defensively or get sucked into track meets and thats why SAS has been able to hurt GSW


Russ is the opposite of that. he has one speed: top speed. he's a terrible defender that gambles too much and gets wildly out of position, GSW turns his gambles into 3's. On offense, he's a straight line driver that turns into a black hole against GSW because he tries to prove something, even when he had KD.

GSW slaps Klay on him and then has a buncha length behind him. Russ isn't a finesse finisher, he ends up driving out of control, or forcing bad jumpers, and it kills OKC's offense.

Nothing in that Lowe/Rusillo discussion is news, by the way- Marcus Thompson and Ethan Strauss have written about it before, at least a year ago

Anyways, for the 2 or 3 people that bothered reading this, thanks.

Everyone else, please resume calling Steph Curry trash and praising Westbrook for "loyalty" and his scowls and dunks

[ThunderBolt]

Replace Carmelo with Anthony Davis and Andre Roberson with Jimmy Butler and we would see how well they can guard him.

Anytime I look at these threads it’s always Russ vs the warriors. Of course Russ is easier to control when he has no help and goes against four all stars. Of course Durant gets better looks playing for GS. I concede. Russ isn’t better than the entire warriors team.

[SlowPaced]

Westbrook gets a pass for how he did against the Warriors last year. He had zero shooting around him and no real second option. It's easy for an elite defense to contain a guy in that situation.

Prior to last year, he shot the ball worse against them than he usually does, but that goes for most elite guards. FG% isn't the real problem he has against the Warriors, it's that going full speed all the time feeds into the Warriors hands. He needs to make adjustments.

[bakesale]

Klay is an elite defender, and also Westbrook just knows one speed so there's that.

I like klay. very pure shooting stroke. probably will be the 2nd option in gs in 2 or 3 more years when steph starts to age. but on defe nse hes kinda overated. kyrie destroyed him at will. he lit up when he seen that gs was going to have him guard him one on one. elite defenders don't get beat that bad like he did against kyrie. jimmy butler is a elite defender. klay is a good defensive player. hes to slow to keep up with players like beal, or mcolloum I cant pronounce his name from the blazers. hes out matched against any explosive pg or sg who know how to create there own offense.

3 out of the 5 games in the Finals last season Kyrie shot very poorly against Klay.

Also Smart and Avery Bradley are considered all world defenders and Kyrie did a better job against them than he did against Klay. Kyrie destroyed the Celtics.

[Triples333]

Replace Carmelo with Anthony Davis and Andre Roberson with Jimmy Butler and we would see how well they can guard him.

Anytime I look at these threads it’s always Russ vs the warriors. Of course Russ is easier to control when he has no help and goes against four all stars. Of course Durant gets better looks playing for GS. I concede. Russ isn’t better than the entire warriors team.

Westbrook's efficiency struggles against the Warriors predate Durant by quite a bit though.

Fact: Since December of 2013 Westbrook has not once shot >39% from the field against the Warriors in a regular season game (in the playoff series he averaged 39.5%). That's just ownership.