Nikola Jokić and best Bigmen passers of all time

[UcanUwill]

Look at those shotblocking and steal numbers tho (2,4 blocks 2,6 steals 34 MPG). Guy was a machine, if only he joined Portland when he was drafted...

I can agree with that, he is better in everything during these prime days than during his veteran NBA days - except in assists/passing. Which is some kind of irony if we know what is subject of this thread.

He always had ability, just as you said, he didn't use it that much in his prime. I know NBA fans often praise how good Divac was, well, back in the day, Lithuania Serbia was a big rivalry, and it wasn't even close, non NBA Sabonis was just flat out better. That was one big advantage the greens had on Yugs. Portland would have been a dynasty, its a shame.

[NuggetsWY]

"Best bigmen passers of all time" and nobody has even mentioned a 6'9" guy with over 10,000 assists in a shortened career? What's up with that? Sure, he was called "point guard" but he played all five positions and there have been others mentioned who were 6'9".

Love watching Jokic and think he's a remarkable and unusual talent at center in terms of passing. But can we get some love for Magic Johnson as being on an entirely different level than virtually everyone else that ever played the game? Bigman-wise that is.

[ChilledAlex]

Jokic > Sabonis easily

Why do you say easily?

Were you in Lithuania to watch a young Sabonis play? I'm gonna answer for you and say, no you didn't. Neither did I, put I'm in my 50's and I'd bet you arent old enough to have even seen Sabonis play for the Blazers when his body had already betrayed him.

Am I missing out on something and injuries make you forget how to pass the ball? Of course Jokic is basically everything on Nuggets offense, without him they would be a lottery team. But that's because he is THAT good, and his ability to magically get the ball where it must be and see everything on the court and his extremely high ball IQ is what sets him apart from Sabonis. Sabonis was great passer among big men, Jokic is great passer among everyone.

He is basically Teodosic of big men. God damn Serbia is gonna have one helluva team in Olympics or World Cup(whichever is sooner)They will make All-NBA team run for their gold, for sure

[sisibilio]

Look at those shotblocking and steal numbers tho (2,4 blocks 2,6 steals 34 MPG). Guy was a machine, if only he joined Portland when he was drafted...

I can agree with that, he is better in everything during these prime days than during his veteran NBA days - except in assists/passing. Which is some kind of irony if we know what is subject of this thread.

You can't compare NBA and FIBA assists anyway, the criteria is way more loose in the NBA.
Sabonis was always an incredible and creative passer but he wasn't used as a point-center like Jokic, he spent most of the time in the post even in his younger days. He was capable of it but that game didn't exist yet, he was like an alien in that era, i think he'd be even more dominant in today's game.

[ChilledAlex]

Jokic's up there, man. A lot of people don't like to give credit to current players until their career is over, but he just has an innate ability to know where people are without looking. That's tough to do as a big man. And every other game I see him doing a crafty little tip pass to a teammate for an open shot.. no other big man or even point guard really does that as often as him.

Between him and Sabonis for me.

Is it necessarily tough to do as a big man? Compared to guards, big men have the advantage of being able to see and pass over the defense. The reason most good passing guards are able to be more volume assist men is that they usually have the ball more, but also are likely much better ball handlers, especially in right spaces and can get to more spots where they can make an assisting pass. In terms of seeing a step ahead and knowing where people will be, being a big or small doesn't make it harder or easier.

His passing is very impressive though, fun to watch.

True, but big men have longer bodies and nerve strings which naturally should give them worse coordination and they simply can't move that quick.

[HeartBreakKid]

"Best bigmen passers of all time" and nobody has even mentioned a 6'9" guy with over 10,000 assists in a shortened career? What's up with that? Sure, he was called "point guard" but he played all five positions and there have been others mentioned who were 6'9".

Love watching Jokic and think he's a remarkable and unusual talent at center in terms of passing. But can we get some love for Magic Johnson as being on an entirely different level than virtually everyone else that ever played the game? Bigman-wise that is.

I mean the obvious rebuttal is that Magic Johnson wasn't a big man...

Big man is a play style.

[NickAnderson]

I’ve been watching basketball for 20+ years and jokic is the best by far


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Chris Porter's Hair]

He's good, but I think people are jumping the gun. I went back and forth between Sabonis and Divac. Will freely confess I didn't see Walton to give him a fair shake. Shout out to Bogut. He's not the best, but deserves mention for being really, really good.

[THE J0KER]

And those who compare Jokic and Horford 5.3 apg this season must know that Denver under coach Malone is not that well-organized team with a clear system like Celtics is under Brad Stevens. Our coach experimenting way too much, and his favorite "test animal" is Nikola Jokic. So if you want to see how good is Jokic in passing, just look his numbers this month, or last year during February, March, and April. Since the start of this calendar year, Nikola Jokic is 7apg, TOP10 in the league (with 5.3apg Horford is #30), and TOP3 for players which is not point-guards in their teams, with LeBron and Harden. Will he stay on 7+ level more depending on Nuggets coach Malone "new schemes" and changes than on Jokic himself...

[wablty]

I'm a little disappointed at the number of mentions of Kareem and Garnett.

[nikster]

So, Jokic is averaging the same 5.3APG as Horford this season, Horford has more total assists this season, and Horford is an all star but Jokic is not, but Jokic is not only the best passing big man this year, but of all time.

You call people crazy, yet you think that APG in one season is the only thing we should look at.

We could look at the way Jokic gets his assists compared with Horford, but even without watching 1 game we can deduce things.

1- Horford has his best season ever when it comes to APG : 5.3APG vs 3.1 for his career (Jokic 5.3 vs 4.0). Considering that last year was his second best season, we can deduce that playing in Brad Stevens' system is helping him a lot.

2- Horford is playing slightly more minutes, so per 36 is advantaging Jokic (6.1 Vs 5.8)

3- Boston is playing a faster tempo, so per 100 possessions is advantaging Jokic (8.4 vs 8.1)

4- Horford is playing with better players, so his good passes probably have a better chance to be converted.

But just looking at the game, you realize that Jokic's APG would be way up there if they played him as a "point center". He just has a higher potential than Horford even if Horford is really good.

Good points. My take is you can’t take flashy passes and necessarily say it makes someone a better passer, no more than you can take a player who makes spectacular dunks, and compare him to a player who doesn’t dunk yet averages the same PPG. Is one a better scorer just because he makes highlights real dunks? Is one shooter a better scorer than another because he has a prettier jumpshot? Most people here are making a case because of Globetrotter like passing skills, but I bet there’s three guys on the current Globetrotters who are better passers than Jokic.

If someone is on a fastbreak and does a simple layup or a flashy dunk, you get 2 points either way.

If a good passing big man is in the post, like Al Horford, he will make the right passes to open players like Jokic would. But, what Horford can't do, is throw a behind the back pass out a double team to a wide open teammate. That's 2 points created out of thin air, and that is what is valuable about passing ability like Jokic has. Jokic makes "flashy" looking passes that create plays out of nowhere and generate offense.

[bwgood77]

Alvan Adams getting disrespect...

Alvan indeed was too frail to play in the lowpost all the time, but his best skill was passing not scoring. This led MacLeod to station Adams in the highpost where he proved to be a devastating force.

That rookie year (1976) he averaged 5.6 assists per game. Before him only Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell passed that mark. Since then, only Sam Lacey has.

Passing was his greatest skill, but Adams put together an overall great campain: 19 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 1.5 spg, and 1.5 bpg to go with the assists. The accolades piled up for Adams that season, too. He was a member of the All-Rookie 1st Team and the All-Star Team, and was named Rookie of the Year.

https://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012/06/24/the-lowdown-alvan-adams/

Per 36 Wilt was only ahead of that in one season...he was ahead of it on a per game basis twice but played like 45 mpg...Adams played. Russell was never ahead of Adams per 36, and only once on a per game basis slightly but that was in 40 mpg compared to Adams 33 mpg.

And in an article about Webber maybe being the best passing big of all time...

He is, by some measures, the greatest passing big man in the history of the sport. He averaged 4.2 assists per game over his 15-year career, and he assisted on 20.2 percent of his teams' baskets while on the court — an outrageous number for a true power forward. Of all players listed at 6-foot-9 or taller, only three assisted on a larger percentage of hoops: Larry Bird, Toni Kukoc, and Alvan Adams. http://grantland.com/features/chris-webber-hall-fame-case/

I will say Jokic makes some amazing passes...as far as complete court vision and crazy good passes, it seems like Jokic has a special skill I haven't seen before. I chose Jokic of the options. Sabonis was really good but Jokic has a magic skill with this stuff.

Here is a pretty good you tube compilation of top 10 passing centers ever (though Jokic is missing). Mostly more old school guys.

Watch on YouTube

[THE J0KER]

Look at those shotblocking and steal numbers tho (2,4 blocks 2,6 steals 34 MPG). Guy was a machine, if only he joined Portland when he was drafted...

I can agree with that, he is better in everything during these prime days than during his veteran NBA days - except in assists/passing. Which is some kind of irony if we know what is subject of this thread.

You can't compare NBA and FIBA assists anyway, the criteria is way more loose in the NBA.
Sabonis was always an incredible and creative passer but he wasn't used as a point-center like Jokic, he spent most of the time in the post even in his younger days. He was capable of it but that game didn't exist yet, he was like an alien in that era, i think he'd be even more dominant in today's game.

Of course, I can... real reason why in FIBA competition in that time apg stats are reduced compared to NBA is that FIBA match is 40 minutes long, not 48, and in XX century FIBA attack limit is 30 seconds, not 24. It is just an urban legend that there is the significantly big difference between FIBA and NBA criteria what assist is.

Here is a game log of Sarunas Marciulionis, the real playmaker of that Lithuanian team at the same 1992 Olympic tournament, and you will notice the difference.

And Croatian PF Toni Kukoc at that tournament has 6apg in Barcelona OG, so trust me, the problem is not in counting, but simple Sabonis on his prime is brutal and dominant executor in the offense which develops his passing talent lately, during veteran years.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Not sure if Boris Diaw counts since it took him a couple season in the league to eat his way up to "big man" positional status, but he's up there too especially in terms of creativity.
If we're talking strictly centers, Jokic & Walton and Marc Gasol get love from me. Never saw Sabonis play. Duncan & Love were amazing outlet passers, a very effective skill that I don't see much any more (somehow people decided that PGs grabbing rebounds under the basket and running the length of the court was a great way to jump start transition offense, when really it isn't. The ball moves faster than a person. It's just stat padding.)

[Pacersike]

I can not say anything.

I'm still stunned that he won't be in the ASG

He didn't deserve it.

Maybe if 1 or 2 other guys gets hurt or fakes an injury to pass on the game, he could be next in line. But his play so far this year has been below expectations. He needs to improve his shooting from 3, his conditioning is still sub-par, and he needs to stop whining after every single call that doesn't go his way.

Cousins is a center too, Jokic was made for the ASG, there is almost no defense in ASGs and his passes are spectacular to watch. Perfect for the ASG. His stats are good enough to be in but his excitement factor is why I want him in.

[nomansland]

I can not say anything.

I'm still stunned that he won't be in the ASG

He didn't deserve it.

Maybe if 1 or 2 other guys gets hurt or fakes an injury to pass on the game, he could be next in line. But his play so far this year has been below expectations. He needs to improve his shooting from 3, his conditioning is still sub-par, and he needs to stop whining after every single call that doesn't go his way.

Cousins is a center too, Jokic was made for the ASG, there is almost no defense in ASGs and his passes are spectacular to watch. Perfect for the ASG. His stats are good enough to be in but his excitement factor is why I want him in.

Just because the event (I'm reluctant to call it a game) was made for a guy like Jokic doesn't mean he deserves the accolade this season. Down the road it's likely but not this year.

[Pacersike]

He didn't deserve it.

Maybe if 1 or 2 other guys gets hurt or fakes an injury to pass on the game, he could be next in line. But his play so far this year has been below expectations. He needs to improve his shooting from 3, his conditioning is still sub-par, and he needs to stop whining after every single call that doesn't go his way.

Cousins is a center too, Jokic was made for the ASG, there is almost no defense in ASGs and his passes are spectacular to watch. Perfect for the ASG. His stats are good enough to be in but his excitement factor is why I want him in.

Just because the event (I'm reluctant to call it a game) was made for a guy like Jokic doesn't mean he deserves the accolade this season. Down the road it's likely but not this year.

You seem to be down on him because of his superior previous season, but he is carrying the Nuggets and still deserves the consideration for his play only.

[Sothron]

He didn't deserve it.

Maybe if 1 or 2 other guys gets hurt or fakes an injury to pass on the game, he could be next in line. But his play so far this year has been below expectations. He needs to improve his shooting from 3, his conditioning is still sub-par, and he needs to stop whining after every single call that doesn't go his way.

Cousins is a center too, Jokic was made for the ASG, there is almost no defense in ASGs and his passes are spectacular to watch. Perfect for the ASG. His stats are good enough to be in but his excitement factor is why I want him in.

Just because the event (I'm reluctant to call it a game) was made for a guy like Jokic doesn't mean he deserves the accolade this season. Down the road it's likely but not this year.

You are categorically wrong in this. Jokic is the only reason Denver is in the playoffs. I haven't missed a Nuggets game since Jokic's rookie year. Denver would be a bottom three team if Jokic was not on the team. He has to deal with a coach with crazy schemes and rotations, no real starting point guard and he still puts up numbers. He absolutely deserves to be an All Star.

You must be one of those anti home team fans that every board has.

[LuDux1]

Wait, which Sabonis we are talking about?
jk

[UcanUwill]

I can agree with that, he is better in everything during these prime days than during his veteran NBA days - except in assists/passing. Which is some kind of irony if we know what is subject of this thread.

You can't compare NBA and FIBA assists anyway, the criteria is way more loose in the NBA.
Sabonis was always an incredible and creative passer but he wasn't used as a point-center like Jokic, he spent most of the time in the post even in his younger days. He was capable of it but that game didn't exist yet, he was like an alien in that era, i think he'd be even more dominant in today's game.

Of course, I can... real reason why in FIBA competition in that time apg stats are reduced compared to NBA is that FIBA match is 40 minutes long, not 48, and in XX century FIBA attack limit is 30 seconds, not 24. It is just an urban legend that there is the significantly big difference between FIBA and NBA criteria what assist is.

Here is a game log of Sarunas Marciulionis, the real playmaker of that Lithuanian team at the same 1992 Olympic tournament, and you will notice the difference.

And Croatian PF Toni Kukoc at that tournament has 6apg in Barcelona OG, so trust me, the problem is not in counting, but simple Sabonis on his prime is brutal and dominant executor in the offense which develops his passing talent lately, during veteran years.

Big difference are score keepers. NBA score keepers are a joke, they are way too generous when it comes to assists.