RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#13 2018-19

[rcc8884]

This list is dead. LMAO Jokic as the 12th best player in the NBA.

I’m kinda surprised this is controversial with people. I thought Jokic was pretty universally regarded as a Top 15 player.

When I think of top 15 players, Jokic never really comes to my mind. Not saying he doesn't deserve it, he just has very little of a following and I can't tell you the last time I saw or read anything about him. He suffers from being in Denver which just doesn't get the publicity of say New York and Porzingis.

I think Jokic should have been a little farther down than 12 and there is no way Butler should be where he is but I guess that was just the consensus even though I never really saw comments on why Butler was where he went.

[mefromthefuture]

Jokic didn't have a Jimmy Butler, which greatly affects offensive and defensive ratings.

Also didn't play with Butler the year before and KAT had better stats the year before without jimmy b.

Also Jokic didnt play with Jamal Crawford chucker on offense worst defender in the NBA

That’s not true. Jokic had a better ORtg and DRtg last year.

Never said he did expect when someone argued per 100 possessions

[GeorgeMarcus]

Also didn't play with Butler the year before and KAT had better stats the year before without jimmy b.

Also Jokic didnt play with Jamal Crawford chucker on offense worst defender in the NBA

That’s not true. Jokic had a better ORtg and DRtg last year.

Never said he did expect when someone argued per 100 possessions

I guess I’m missing something because I thought you were using per 100 possession stats to argue KAT over Jokic. Compared to most stats, those are more dependent on who you share the floor with.

[nolang1]

#12 is way too high for a center that can't defend. Jokic is a special talent offensively and has a case for Top 15, but there's a difference between a guard who can't play defense and a center who can't play defense. I'd take Kyrie, Lillard, Oladipo, George, Draymond and Gobert over him.

Voted Kyrie Irving. I think the forum is badly suffering from recency and injury bias when it comes to Kyrie and also ignoring the added level of difficulty in the Playoffs. Kyrie is arguably the most battle-tested offensive player among non-superstars. His ability to make shots against elite defensive coverage is getting extremely underrated here. We just saw Lillard completely disappear against the Pelicans and get swept and some folks are voting for him over Kyrie. Really? You really think Kyrie would get shut down like that?

I really have the feeling RealGM has gone way too far up its own arse when it comes to scoring. Knowing casual fans overrate scoring is one thing, but underrating the ability to score to the extent RealGM does is something else. Scoring has to come from somewhere. Having a player that can still get his points against elite defense is of tremendous help. It really boggles my mind that the impact of isolation scoring against elite defenses in the Playoffs still gets ignored despite '16 Finals and '18 Conference Finals making a significant point to that end.

People who are familiar with my posts on the PC Board will know that I'm an advocate of advanced stats, but the way isolation scorers are portrayed in impact stats points to a fault in the stats, not the other way around. Three point specialist role players keep ranking higher offensively than excellent isolation scorers do. Something's off there. People's view of Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony and the like has suffered immensely as a result of this and while I do think there's something to take away from it, I think the discrediting has become way too crazy. We now have guys genuinely saying that they'd take Robert Covington over peak Carmelo Anthony, that's insanity.

Said it far better than I could hope to. And as I've noted before, Kyrie was 13th in ORPM, and for some reason no one wants to mention that.

Yeah, no one should want to mention that if they're trying to argue for Kyrie as the 13th-best overall player in the league since his defense clearly takes away from his offensive value, which as ORPM shows isn't exactly earth-shattering to start and has consistently lagged behind where he stands in terms of points per game. Lou Williams is the only player among the top 12 in ORPM who rates worse on the defensive end than Kyrie, so it's not like the "he's using all his energy getting buckets" type of arguments really hold much weight either.

[mefromthefuture]

That’s not true. Jokic had a better ORtg and DRtg last year.

Never said he did expect when someone argued per 100 possessions

I guess I’m missing something because I thought you were using per 100 possession stats to argue KAT over Jokic. Compared to most stats, those are more dependent on who you share the floor with.

Never did bring up per possessions until iggy did 127 KAT 121 Jokic same rating defensively.

I am just going ask because i did is everything KAT better than Jokic only because of someone else is responsible

because i all here is excuses
KAT'S not a better shooter or scorer because Jokic doesn't want be
Per a 100 possessions Jokic is just as good rebounder
Per a 100 possessions favors KAT because of Butler on the floor with him

[GeorgeMarcus]

Never said he did expect when someone argued per 100 possessions

I guess I’m missing something because I thought you were using per 100 possession stats to argue KAT over Jokic. Compared to most stats, those are more dependent on who you share the floor with.

Never did bring up per possessions until iggy did 127 KAT 121 Jokic same rating defensively.

I am just going ask because i did is everything KAT better than Jokic only because of someone else is responsible

because i all here is excuses
KAT'S not a better shooter or scorer because Jokic doesn't want be
Per a 100 possessions Jokic is just as good rebounder
Per a 100 possessions favors KAT because of Butler on the floor with him

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking. I haven’t made any excuses, not would I feel compelled to for players I have no allegiance to or disdain for. All I did was provide relevant context to the per 100 stats you posted. It’s not a coincidence KAT’s net rating improved substantially after Butler arrived. Butler is a fringe superstar.

[Sharkboy242]

Wow I'm very surprised that Jokic made it to the 12th spot--respect and props to this board for that. So far the list is pretty good, although I think Westbrook is a bit overrated.

I'm going with Dipo for the next spot.

[TheBounceIsReal]

Kyrie Irving last year: 24 PPG, 49% FG%, 41% 3PT%, 89% FT%.

List of guys who have done that in the history of the NBA: Kevin Durant (x2), Steph Curry (x2), Dirk Nowitski, Larry Bird (x4)

But yeah, Oladipo and Jokic (lol) are better

[bondom34]

If you want to find a near identical line and a guy who actually played more games CJ McCollum did nearly the same thing in 2017, and nobody thought he was a top 13 player. 23 points on 48/42/91 splits.

This is why you don't rank players off PPG and raw percentages.

[deneem4]

Kyrie Irving last year: 24 PPG, 49% FG%, 41% 3PT%, 89% FT%.

List of guys who have done that in the history of the NBA: Kevin Durant (x2), Steph Curry (x2), Dirk Nowitski, Larry Bird (x4)

But yeah, Oladipo and Jokic (lol) are better

Isaiah Thomas had a better ts% than kyrie with less talent around him

[Asif16]

Lol I find it funny that Derozan is on the list. He shouldve never been on the list this early to begin with. OP def jumped the gun with him.

Derozan is low 20's/high 30's at best.

[TheBounceIsReal]

Kyrie Irving last year: 24 PPG, 49% FG%, 41% 3PT%, 89% FT%.

List of guys who have done that in the history of the NBA: Kevin Durant (x2), Steph Curry (x2), Dirk Nowitski, Larry Bird (x4)

But yeah, Oladipo and Jokic (lol) are better

Isaiah Thomas had a better ts% than kyrie with less talent around him

And Kyrie's defensive rating = 103.5, equal to 5th best defensive team. Isaiah that season 108.6, equal to 25th best defensive team. Given that the TS% was 0.025% AND that Isaiah finished 5th in MVP voting that year you're basically proving the point that Kyrie is way underrated on this board.

[Prez]

Kyrie Irving last year: 24 PPG, 49% FG%, 41% 3PT%, 89% FT%.

List of guys who have done that in the history of the NBA: Kevin Durant (x2), Steph Curry (x2), Dirk Nowitski, Larry Bird (x4)

But yeah, Oladipo and Jokic (lol) are better

So we're just gonna ignore the other end of the floor, where Oladipo is one of the best in the league?

[GeorgeMarcus]

Kyrie Irving last year: 24 PPG, 49% FG%, 41% 3PT%, 89% FT%.

List of guys who have done that in the history of the NBA: Kevin Durant (x2), Steph Curry (x2), Dirk Nowitski, Larry Bird (x4)

But yeah, Oladipo and Jokic (lol) are better

Isaiah Thomas had a better ts% than kyrie with less talent around him

And Kyrie's defensive rating = 103.5, equal to 5th best defensive team. Isaiah that season 108.6, equal to 25th best defensive team. Given that the TS% was 0.025% AND that Isaiah finished 5th in MVP voting that year you're basically proving the point that Kyrie is way underrated on this board.

Brotha man. His DRtg was that good because he was on an elite defensive team. It’s abundantly clear he’s a net negative on that end. Also nobody really believed IT was a top 5 player last year.

[iggymcfrack]

Yay for Oladipo! Congratulations on the #13 spot, well deserved. I was way too emotionally invested in the final result of this vote considering it’s just one rank in a long list.

[yoyoboy]

These votes are really coming down to the wire, jeez. But nice to see Dipo get the respect he deserves. I already know who I'm voting for next round.

[GQ Hot Dog]

So now I'm very curious to see where Kyrie slots in.

People have been comparing him to Lillard and in the abstract that's accurate but Kyrie's ability to score in the biggest and toughest games is worth a lot and Dame has yet to prove that.

Paul George has all the tools to be a better player but has consistently failed to carry his teams to the next level and is a definite notch below Kyrie as a scorer.

Is #14 where Kyrie belongs?

[yoyoboy]

So now I'm very curious to see where Kyrie slots in.

People have been comparing him to Lillard and in the abstract that's accurate but Kyrie's ability to score in the biggest and toughest games is worth a lot and Dame has yet to prove that.

Paul George has all the tools to be a better player but has consistently failed to carry his teams to the next level and is a definite notch below Kyrie as a scorer.

Is #14 where Kyrie belongs?

What about the guy in your profile pic?

[GQ Hot Dog]

So now I'm very curious to see where Kyrie slots in.

People have been comparing him to Lillard and in the abstract that's accurate but Kyrie's ability to score in the biggest and toughest games is worth a lot and Dame has yet to prove that.

Paul George has all the tools to be a better player but has consistently failed to carry his teams to the next level and is a definite notch below Kyrie as a scorer.

Is #14 where Kyrie belongs?

What about the guy in your profile pic?

Having to rank Draymond vs. Kyrie makes my head hurt. Are there two more different players? As for where my vote would go, at some point the best defender in the NBA has to get recognized.

[GeorgeMarcus]

So now I'm very curious to see where Kyrie slots in.

People have been comparing him to Lillard and in the abstract that's accurate but Kyrie's ability to score in the biggest and toughest games is worth a lot and Dame has yet to prove that.

Paul George has all the tools to be a better player but has consistently failed to carry his teams to the next level and is a definite notch below Kyrie as a scorer.

Is #14 where Kyrie belongs?

For Dame, what gets overlooked is his ability to facilitate/play within the flow of the offense. Also he’s made some clutch shots in big moments outside of the Pelicans series.