The officiating problem encapsulated

[bondom34]

WTF is this talking about? Ten seconds on google will tell you that Harden has shot like 5000 more field goals in his career than free throws--the stat in this graphic is totally and completely made up. Check your f'in sources, man.

It's not made up. He's talking about numbers made, not attempted. Harden has in fact made more FTs than FGs.

The graphic specifically said FIELD GOALS not FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS. Free Throws not Free Throw Attempts.

I see, my bad for that. It's still telling an exaggerated story that's distorting a more boring reality: Kobe, for example, did the same thing during his peak--2003-2005 he hit almost exactly as many FTs as FGs, and it's only when he started becoming post-Shaq, super-chucky Kobe that he started increasing the gap. (It exploded his last couple years when he shot like crazy and could no longer get to the line). Barkely was right there a few years too. Sure, Harden is a little more reliant on foul shots than those guys, but we're talking a little--it's not like he's shooting 50% or 70% more FTs than they did and that his example shows us how the NBA has declined into phony foul-mongering basketball.

Even for someone like Jordan, quoting those stats overstates the reality: pre-Wizards Jordan averaged about 9 FTs per game vs about 22 FGs per game, while Harden's averaged about 10 FTs per game to 19 FGs per game. Are we really crying about how our generation's best scoring SG is averaging one more FT and taking 3 fewer shots per game than one from a few generations ago?

It may be a bit exaggerated, but as an example since 2013, when Harden went to Houston, he leads the league in FTA at 4961. Next place is Russell Westbrook at 3608. He's shot over 1300 more FTs than anyone in the NBA in 5 plus years, that's incredible to me.

http://bkref.com/tiny/OEdU1

[Jon1798]

Again, because it’s all about me:

Holiday vs Harden- similar size and both ten years into the league

Holiday-
FG 3698
FT 1217

Harden-
FG 4878
FT 5047

Harden is a better free throw shooter of course. But still interesting.

[Tacoma]

This might have a lot to do with Harden shooting a lot of 3's btw. Probably better to look at points scored on FT's vs total points. This could end up being a bit disingenuous because it lacks context. On first look, I had the same reaction and was about to and 1, but then I thought about it and maybe it isn't really as wild as its being portrayed to be.

This is probably true. However, it's still impressive when you consider how many 3s he shoots. Guys who shoot as many 3s as he does usually don't go to the line all that much.

Take Curry, for example. He shoots more 3s than Harden but still has made more than twice as many FGs as he has FTs.

Here's a comparison Curry vs. Harden (per ESPN on Dec 14 AM). Curry shoots more 3's (47% vs. 44%) but has made 2,843 more FG's than FT's. Harden, on the other hand, still stands out by far with 169 less FG's than FT's. That's quite amazing.

...............FGA.......3PTA.......%.......FGM......FTM......DIFF
Harden.....10,997.....4,790.....44%.....4,878.....5,047.....(169)
Curry.......10,856.....5,070.....47%.....5,192.....2,349.....2,843

[HotelVitale]

It's not made up. He's talking about numbers made, not attempted. Harden has in fact made more FTs than FGs.

The graphic specifically said FIELD GOALS not FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS. Free Throws not Free Throw Attempts.

I see, my bad for that. It's still telling an exaggerated story that's distorting a more boring reality: Kobe, for example, did the same thing during his peak--2003-2005 he hit almost exactly as many FTs as FGs, and it's only when he started becoming post-Shaq, super-chucky Kobe that he started increasing the gap. (It exploded his last couple years when he shot like crazy and could no longer get to the line). Barkely was right there a few years too. Sure, Harden is a little more reliant on foul shots than those guys, but we're talking a little--it's not like he's shooting 50% or 70% more FTs than they did and that his example shows us how the NBA has declined into phony foul-mongering basketball. Even for someone like Jordan, quoting those stats overstates the reality: pre-Wizards Jordan averaged about 9 FTs per game vs about 22 FGs per game, while Harden's averaged about 10 FTs per game to 19 FGs per game. Are we really crying about how our generation's best scoring SG is averaging one more FT and taking 3 fewer shots per game than one from a few generations ago?

It may be a bit exaggerated, but as an example since 2013, when Harden went to Houston, he leads the league in FTA at 4961. Next place is Russell Westbrook at 3608. He's shot over 1300 more FTs than anyone in the NBA in 5 plus years, that's incredible to me. http://bkref.com/tiny/OEdU1

Interesting, and it supports the point I was trying to make. No one should bother denying that Harden shoots a ton of FTs--even for a star--and that a lot of them are baited and less of real basketball plays than the sort of fouls Jordan would draw. I'm just opposed to the narrative that the NBA has been enabling this and that the whole sport is declining because of refereeing (this thread is called 'the officiating problem encapsulating,' which insinuates that we all think there's a serious problem with corrupt or bad ref'ing that's popped up recently). Harden is a master of drawing fouls AND he's taken advantage of some recent changes, but the fact that he's destroying his contemporaries in that category supports that this is more about Harden than the league as a whole. Harden's a freak, but sports history has lots of freaks in it and him drawing a couple more FTs per game than other stars doesn't seem like a reason to start picking up the torches and pitchforks.

[Soulyss]

Per Wiretap

After the game, Barnes said "I ask the refs on almost every play what I could be doing or what I'm not doing. Still haven't got any answers from that. Maybe [NBA executive vice president of basketball operations Kiki VanDeWeghe] can give me some answers. I'm just trying to be aggressive and trying to find spots where I can."

The fact that this is a mindset, let alone a mindset players feel free to publicly complain about, is ridiculous. There should be nothing you can do as offensive player that *draws more calls.* Whether you're fouled, or not, should be entirely dependent upon whether the defender actually fouls you. If you're jumping into defenders, falling down after the slightest body contract on a drive, or flailing your arms on clean blocks, you shouldn't be getting the call.

The NBA created this by rewarding floppers and guys like James Harden who just jump into people for the whistle.

The problem is that Harden is so over-protected... If he pulled these antics 20 years ago he would be in the hospital.

[G35]

Either way, it's still a crazy stat. It's hard to really say how crazy though because the game has changed so much. Historically, I'd say Harden is a pretty unique player, especially in comparison to other HOF caliber guys. Basically his game is take the 3 or draw the foul, it's a very efficient way to score points, but also rather unusual. He's not really trying to beat guys all that much in the sense where he's trying to create space to get a shot off. If he doesn't have a shot beyond the arc, he's going inside, whether he actually has a lane or not makes no difference to him.

This is why I feel Harden does not excel in the PS, he has no creativity to his offense.

Someone in analytics sat down with James and said if you shoot only 3's and FT's you will become a star...maybe even a superstar and James has heeded that advice.

However, it doesn't translate to the playoffs or defensive minded teams.


If James is on (which basically means is his 3pt shot on...if his 3pt shot is off, he's horrible, it affects the rest of his game i.e. becomes more passive, no defense, no leadership) he is a one man wrecking crew and nearly impossible to stop.

Keys to James Harden:

- 3pt shooting is what sets up his lanes to the basket, he's not really a great pure 3pt shooter, I think he's a volume shooter without a conscience and the license to shoot

- ball handling, body control and shameless acting to draw fouls

- an offense geared around his skillset...Harden-ball is to get a desirable one on one matchup, catch a defender leaning the wrong way (typically so he can go left), 3pt shooters in the corners and a big that can roll and finish at the rim. Rinse repeat.

- a coach that does not care about defense

[og15]

I see, my bad for that. It's still telling an exaggerated story that's distorting a more boring reality: Kobe, for example, did the same thing during his peak--2003-2005 he hit almost exactly as many FTs as FGs, and it's only when he started becoming post-Shaq, super-chucky Kobe that he started increasing the gap. (It exploded his last couple years when he shot like crazy and could no longer get to the line). Barkely was right there a few years too. Sure, Harden is a little more reliant on foul shots than those guys, but we're talking a little--it's not like he's shooting 50% or 70% more FTs than they did and that his example shows us how the NBA has declined into phony foul-mongering basketball. Even for someone like Jordan, quoting those stats overstates the reality: pre-Wizards Jordan averaged about 9 FTs per game vs about 22 FGs per game, while Harden's averaged about 10 FTs per game to 19 FGs per game. Are we really crying about how our generation's best scoring SG is averaging one more FT and taking 3 fewer shots per game than one from a few generations ago?

It may be a bit exaggerated, but as an example since 2013, when Harden went to Houston, he leads the league in FTA at 4961. Next place is Russell Westbrook at 3608. He's shot over 1300 more FTs than anyone in the NBA in 5 plus years, that's incredible to me. http://bkref.com/tiny/OEdU1

Interesting, and it supports the point I was trying to make. No one should bother denying that Harden shoots a ton of FTs--even for a star--and that a lot of them are baited and less of real basketball plays than the sort of fouls Jordan would draw. I'm just opposed to the narrative that the NBA has been enabling this and that the whole sport is declining because of refereeing (this thread is called 'the officiating problem encapsulating,' which insinuates that we all think there's a serious problem with corrupt or bad ref'ing that's popped up recently). Harden is a master of drawing fouls AND he's taken advantage of some recent changes, but the fact that he's destroying his contemporaries in that category supports that this is more about Harden than the league as a whole. Harden's a freak, but sports history has lots of freaks in it and him drawing a couple more FTs per game than other stars doesn't seem like a reason to start picking up the torches and pitchforks.

Yes, this is correct, if we're trying to make it a situation where the NBA made Harden into this or something like that, no, that is incorrect, Harden has been doing this his whole career, it just magnified when he became a first option because he now had the ball more. Harden is essentially a better version of Corey Maggette in that respect. One of the things we used to get mad at Maggette for as Clippers fans is looking to draw FT's down the stretch instead of to score a basket, he knew how to put himself into position to be fouled, that is true.

Maggette and Harden also have the simlary that they both are very strong players and can use their bodies to get into defenders, but a guy like Corey was doing it long before Harden was even on the NBA radar. Maggette ended his career with 4605 FTM to 4065 FGM (670 more FT's). If he was a volume 3PT shooter, the disparity would probably be larger. His career FTr was .624, Harden's career high was .592 when he first joined Houston. Corey's career high was .783 in 06-07. That season he made 519 FT's and 367 FG's.

So yes, the idea that what Harden is doing is specifically novel isn't accurate, but Maggette was not a superstar level player, so it's less relevant when someone like him does it, but Maggette was technically even better, especially considering the rest of his game was not as good and he did not have the handles of a Harden.

[Edrees]

Guess who's the only one that doesn't have a ring?

to be fair, if you put harden on that 73-9 warriors team in 2016 durant wouldn't have his plastic rings either and harden would be the "champion".

To be fair, if you sent durant to the line whenever someone breathed on him like Harden, he would have won 2 titles in OKC

[og15]

Either way, it's still a crazy stat. It's hard to really say how crazy though because the game has changed so much. Historically, I'd say Harden is a pretty unique player, especially in comparison to other HOF caliber guys. Basically his game is take the 3 or draw the foul, it's a very efficient way to score points, but also rather unusual. He's not really trying to beat guys all that much in the sense where he's trying to create space to get a shot off. If he doesn't have a shot beyond the arc, he's going inside, whether he actually has a lane or not makes no difference to him.

This is why I feel Harden does not excel in the PS, he has no creativity to his offense.

Someone in analytics sat down with James and said if you shoot only 3's and FT's you will become a star...maybe even a superstar and James has heeded that advice.

When, in high school?

Harden in college at 19 back in 2009:
12.9 FGA, 4.7 3PA, 7.7 FTA

Rookie Harden:
12.0 FGA, 5.1 3PA, 5.0 FTA

Harden's "style" of player was not some development, he just carried over what he was already doing as a player and kept doing it. Just think about it, how many rookies taking 12 FGA/G with 5 being 3PA are able to also shoot 5 FTA/G? Lebron took 19 FGA/G as a rookie and shot 5.8 FTA/G. This is just what Harden was, I don't think anyone had to go and tell him "hey, you know if you do the math, this is how to become a star", lol

[og15]

Guess who's the only one that doesn't have a ring?

to be fair, if you put harden on that 73-9 warriors team in 2016 durant wouldn't have his plastic rings either and harden would be the "champion".

To be fair, if you sent durant to the line whenever someone breathed on him like Harden, he would have won 2 titles in OKC

I don't think Durant was ever 1-2 FTA more per game from winning any title, let alone two . He was also one of the main abusers of the rip through move to get FTA's when it used to be considered a shooting foul, and he was cited in that rule change. Of course all these newer guys probably picked it up from Wade and before that Kobe who used to spam that before them.

[bondom34]

I see, my bad for that. It's still telling an exaggerated story that's distorting a more boring reality: Kobe, for example, did the same thing during his peak--2003-2005 he hit almost exactly as many FTs as FGs, and it's only when he started becoming post-Shaq, super-chucky Kobe that he started increasing the gap. (It exploded his last couple years when he shot like crazy and could no longer get to the line). Barkely was right there a few years too. Sure, Harden is a little more reliant on foul shots than those guys, but we're talking a little--it's not like he's shooting 50% or 70% more FTs than they did and that his example shows us how the NBA has declined into phony foul-mongering basketball. Even for someone like Jordan, quoting those stats overstates the reality: pre-Wizards Jordan averaged about 9 FTs per game vs about 22 FGs per game, while Harden's averaged about 10 FTs per game to 19 FGs per game. Are we really crying about how our generation's best scoring SG is averaging one more FT and taking 3 fewer shots per game than one from a few generations ago?

It may be a bit exaggerated, but as an example since 2013, when Harden went to Houston, he leads the league in FTA at 4961. Next place is Russell Westbrook at 3608. He's shot over 1300 more FTs than anyone in the NBA in 5 plus years, that's incredible to me. http://bkref.com/tiny/OEdU1

Interesting, and it supports the point I was trying to make. No one should bother denying that Harden shoots a ton of FTs--even for a star--and that a lot of them are baited and less of real basketball plays than the sort of fouls Jordan would draw. I'm just opposed to the narrative that the NBA has been enabling this and that the whole sport is declining because of refereeing (this thread is called 'the officiating problem encapsulating,' which insinuates that we all think there's a serious problem with corrupt or bad ref'ing that's popped up recently). Harden is a master of drawing fouls AND he's taken advantage of some recent changes, but the fact that he's destroying his contemporaries in that category supports that this is more about Harden than the league as a whole. Harden's a freak, but sports history has lots of freaks in it and him drawing a couple more FTs per game than other stars doesn't seem like a reason to start picking up the torches and pitchforks.

Think I mostly agree. He's a great player who's exploiting it to the extreme. I can't stand it, and think he gets a little overrated in part due to it, but it's not a corruption issue it's an exploitation and rules issue.

[G35]

Either way, it's still a crazy stat. It's hard to really say how crazy though because the game has changed so much. Historically, I'd say Harden is a pretty unique player, especially in comparison to other HOF caliber guys. Basically his game is take the 3 or draw the foul, it's a very efficient way to score points, but also rather unusual. He's not really trying to beat guys all that much in the sense where he's trying to create space to get a shot off. If he doesn't have a shot beyond the arc, he's going inside, whether he actually has a lane or not makes no difference to him.

This is why I feel Harden does not excel in the PS, he has no creativity to his offense.

Someone in analytics sat down with James and said if you shoot only 3's and FT's you will become a star...maybe even a superstar and James has heeded that advice.

When, in high school?

Harden in college at 19 back in 2009:
12.9 FGA, 4.7 3PA, 7.7 FTA

Rookie Harden:
12.0 FGA, 5.1 3PA, 5.0 FTA

Harden's "style" of player was not some development, he just carried over what he was already doing as a player and kept doing it. Just think about it, how many rookies taking 12 FGA/G with 5 being 3PA are able to also shoot 5 FTA/G? Lebron took 19 FGA/G as a rookie and shot 5.8 FTA/G. This is just what Harden was, I don't think anyone had to go and tell him "hey, you know if you do the math, this is how to become a star", lol

I'm speaking facetiously about someone sitting him down, my point is that he has embraced analytics to the point where that is all he does is try and shoot 3's or get to the FT line.

Some players realize that the best way to get easy points is to get to free throws.

You are right, Harden is not taking a novel approach, I don't think its much different than pick up ball when you have that one guy who always calls "ball" when shooting if he doesn't make the shot.

Harden has just figured out how to make referee's call "ball" for him on the pro level at a superstar rate......

[xfactor]

Any video or clips of the lakers with hands behind back?

Read on Twitter

This is remarkable. I'm sure Harden will still get fouls. Next step, Tie the hands behind back then dawn a straight jacket before checking in. Better yet, just don't check in the game at all.

[xfactor]

Read on Twitter

[Stillwater]

Yep the amount of calls players like Harden get off of sucker moves is not good for the game at all.
apparently the league wants the Hardens of the league to get open looks and make their shots
instead of having to pass the ball.
Harden and CP3 for example make a good % of open looks so anytime a defender is too close
even with hands away those two just rub on the pull up and jack a chuckers dream knowing they get 3 freebies at the line.
Curry has been doing this for years so it's not like it should come as a surprise other all stars are getting this treatment either.
The changes made in the rule book however are my biggest complaint , I mean defenders are getting called for breathing on the offense and that just makes the game unwatchable and pretty much a farse

[Chinook]

1) Big no. Player shouldn't care what fans want to see, if they want to fouls someone they should. Hack a someone is a legit strategy, git gud at shooting free throws if you don't want to get hacked

2) You have situations where someone is fouled hard but those who use words as soft and alpha costantly say it was a flop so this rule would hurt non star player and euro players.

The players don't make the rules; the league does. And the league totally does care about what fans want to see. Hence the recent changes to the rules as is. Hacking is only a "legit strategy" because the rules allow for it. You take it out, then it becomes a bad idea to do.

No idea why you think this affects non-star or Euro players any more than star, I guess American? players. The point of having a review system in place is to remove the subjectivity from the calls. Players should always try to score rather than exaggerating contact. There are aspects to the game that will still be too close to call when it comes to fining and potentially suspending guys for. But if you combine it with a culture that allows for more contact and removes the incentive for guys to "sacrifice their bodies" to draw charges, and you make it harder for guys to fake dramatic reactions to benign contact.

[TMU]

I admit that Harden gets a good share of calls, but if you look at the number of drives per game and the discrepancy makes a lot more sense. I think only Og15 is the only person making some unbiased sense in this discussion.

[NBAAnthem]

It's not made up. He's talking about numbers made, not attempted. Harden has in fact made more FTs than FGs.

The graphic specifically said FIELD GOALS not FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS. Free Throws not Free Throw Attempts.

I see, my bad for that. It's still telling an exaggerated story that's distorting a more boring reality: Kobe, for example, did the same thing during his peak--2003-2005 he hit almost exactly as many FTs as FGs, and it's only when he started becoming post-Shaq, super-chucky Kobe that he started increasing the gap. (It exploded his last couple years when he shot like crazy and could no longer get to the line). Barkely was right there a few years too. Sure, Harden is a little more reliant on foul shots than those guys, but we're talking a little--it's not like he's shooting 50% or 70% more FTs than they did and that his example shows us how the NBA has declined into phony foul-mongering basketball.

Even for someone like Jordan, quoting those stats overstates the reality: pre-Wizards Jordan averaged about 9 FTs per game vs about 22 FGs per game, while Harden's averaged about 10 FTs per game to 19 FGs per game. Are we really crying about how our generation's best scoring SG is averaging one more FT and taking 3 fewer shots per game than one from a few generations ago?

It may be a bit exaggerated, but as an example since 2013, when Harden went to Houston, he leads the league in FTA at 4961. Next place is Russell Westbrook at 3608. He's shot over 1300 more FTs than anyone in the NBA in 5 plus years, that's incredible to me.

http://bkref.com/tiny/OEdU1

since Harden has been in Houston, no player in the league, has shot more free-throws, had more 20 point, 30 point, 40 point, or 50 point games than the beard

[NBAAnthem]

Read on Twitter

the league wanted freedom of movement, and they got it

blame silver. Harden is nerf proof, they have already tried to do something about Hardens 4-point plays with the "harden rule". Makes no difference

[Unbiased hater]

1) Big no. Player shouldn't care what fans want to see, if they want to fouls someone they should. Hack a someone is a legit strategy, git gud at shooting free throws if you don't want to get hacked

2) You have situations where someone is fouled hard but those who use words as soft and alpha costantly say it was a flop so this rule would hurt non star player and euro players.

The players don't make the rules; the league does. And the league totally does care about what fans want to see. Hence the recent changes to the rules as is. Hacking is only a "legit strategy" because the rules allow for it. You take it out, then it becomes a bad idea to do.

No idea why you think this affects non-star or Euro players any more than star, I guess American? players. The point of having a review system in place is to remove the subjectivity from the calls. Players should always try to score rather than exaggerating contact. There are aspects to the game that will still be too close to call when it comes to fining and potentially suspending guys for. But if you combine it with a culture that allows for more contact and removes the incentive for guys to "sacrifice their bodies" to draw charges, and you make it harder for guys to fake dramatic reactions to benign contact.

Flops should be punished only if they are obvious or if they decided some game, other than that it's debatable what is flop so this is why i think that will affect certain type of players.