Treadmilling Is Better Than Tanking

[NoDopeOnSundays]

They started tanking when they traded Iguodala in 2012. So we'll say 5. Still, it took forever and they whiffed on at least a few picks. In theory they should be farther ahead than they currently are.

They were swinging for the fences by getting Bynum. Far from a tanking move. It started with the Holiday for Noel move.

Yeah, they could be farther. But going from top 5 in the lottery to a top 10 team at worst is pretty good returns. Sucks b/c Hinkie couldn’t finish what he started.

If you told a fan of the magic, hawks, knicks, etc that after the next 4 drafts they would have two players the caliber of biid and simmons under 25 yrs old, I am sure they would happily take it.

Yes, I'd take that deal in a heartbeat

[dakomish23]

They started the process the draft of 2013. They stopped tanking the draft of 2017. So it’s 4 years.

Yes, not everything worked. But they got as many bites at the apple and they got two perennial all stars.

Not a top 5 team right now. You’re speaking as if this their peak. It’s not even close. Their best years are ahead of them.

They started tanking when they traded Iguodala in 2012. So we'll say 5. Still, it took forever and they whiffed on at least a few picks. In theory they should be farther ahead than they currently are.

We'll say 3. Trading Iguodala (and young players and picks) wasn't a tank move, it was for Bynum. Tanking teams don't throw away young players and picks lol. And tanking teams don't end up with the 11th pick. And in 2016/17 they picked up a bunch of veterans. Tanking teams don't do that either.

Yep. That Iggy trade was far from a tank move

[SpeedyG]

No, but I think they're mad they're mad they tanked and got Jahlil Okafor, Nerlens Noel, and Markelle Fultz


Justise Winslow was the 10th overall pick for Miami, and most definitely fits into their core. Miami didn't tank to get him. He just happened to fall to them...

Doesn’t make them any less grateful for Embid & Simmons.

Also, they didn’t tank for Noel

My point had nothing to do with how grateful they were, but more about illustrating how lucky they were. And if you'll remember correctly, Embiid almost turned into a busy due to injuries.

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And that still has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Of course teams get lucky while others get bad luck.

But OP made it seem like the entire East playoff teams didn't benefit from tanking (or losing in general), which isn't true.

They did benefit from losing and getting a top 5 pick, just not of their own: Boston courtesy of the Nets, Pacers of Magic's, Nets of Lakers, etc..

The point about tanking isn't that it's guaranteed path to win..but it's supposed to give you the best odds of landing a cornerstone to your franchise through the draft.

What you do with that opportunity is up to the individual teams....and sometimes a bit of luck.




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[BBallFreak]

Doesn’t make them any less grateful for Embid & Simmons.

Also, they didn’t tank for Noel

My point had nothing to do with how grateful they were, but more about illustrating how lucky they were. And if you'll remember correctly, Embiid almost turned into a busy due to injuries.

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And that still has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Of course teams get lucky while others get bad luck.

But OP made it seem like the entire East playoff teams didn't benefit from tanking (or losing in general), which isn't true.

They did benefit from losing and getting a top 5 pick, just not of their own: Boston courtesy of the Nets, Pacers of Magic's, Nets of Lakers, etc..

The point about tanking isn't that it's guaranteed path to win..but it's supposed to give you the best odds of landing a cornerstone to your franchise through the draft.

What you do with that opportunity is up to the individual teams....and sometimes a bit of luck.




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I guess all of that depends on the franchise in question. For my team, that just doesn't work. We don't tank.

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[Threezus]

Coming from a fan of a team known as the ULTIMATE TREADMILL TEAM for the last decade plus. Treadmilling and knowing your team can't beat any big time team in the playoffs is the most boring crap possible and something you never want to be. Im not a big fan of tanking either but atleast tanking you have a chance to get younger and improve your team every year while having a better chance to land a franchise changing player easier. Plus it's awesome seeing talented young players grow compared to watching players you know won't ever get the job done stay exactly where they are.

[EAS Law]

You're referencing teams that were never tanking in the first place. Maybe if the Magic committed to the tank instead of randomly going after a win-now piece in Ibaka, they would be in a better position right now.

They drafted a player who was 2nd overall. Kings had a top 5 big man and tanked for years with him and didn't make the playoffs. Pelicans drafted a player who's arguably a top 5 player in Anthony Davis and will likely have to trade him next season. Tanking fails more than 50% of the time.

Yeah dude, speaking on the Magic—we’ve had exactly one pick in the top three in 7 years and not a single 1st overall.

The Kings are actually playing pretty well this season and I’m happy for them and their fans. Showing great improvement.

I suppose this thread is in reference to how great the Heat are doing good right now?Lol

[Prokorov]

Coming from a fan of a team known as the ULTIMATE TREADMILL TEAM for the last decade plus. Treadmilling and knowing your team can't beat any big time team in the playoffs is the most boring crap possible and something you never want to be. Im not a big fan of tanking either but atleast tanking you have a chance to get younger and improve your team every year while having a better chance to land a franchise changing player easier. Plus it's awesome seeing talented young players grow compared to watching players you know won't ever get the job done stay exactly where they are.

you can rebuild without tanking.

[coldfish]

Fun stat: One player drafted in the top 3 has won a title without leaving his team, Kyrie. The player before that was Tim Duncan 22 years ago. Am I missing anyone? There is this general vision that the route is -> Get #1 overall pick, wait a few years, win title. It simply doesn't work that way.

With that said, Boston got Pierce at 10. GS got Curry at 7. Miami got Wade at 4. LA traded for Kobe at 13.

I think the value of super tanking is overstated. You can build title teams by just drafting well when you do miss the playoffs and then team building. Just being bad year after year is a treadmill of its own and its actually a more unpleasant treadmill than being 0.500.

[Feel_the_Heat15]

You're referencing teams that were never tanking in the first place. Maybe if the Magic committed to the tank instead of randomly going after a win-now piece in Ibaka, they would be in a better position right now.

They drafted a player who was 2nd overall. Kings had a top 5 big man and tanked for years with him and didn't make the playoffs. Pelicans drafted a player who's arguably a top 5 player in Anthony Davis and will likely have to trade him next season. Tanking fails more than 50% of the time.

Yeah dude, speaking on the Magic—we’ve had exactly one pick in the top three in 7 years and not a single 1st overall.

The Kings are actually playing pretty well this season and I’m happy for them and their fans. Showing great improvement.

I suppose this thread is in reference to how great the Heat are doing good right now?Lol

I mean we got a top 10 SG, a 6-7 PG, Andre Roberson with a 3-point shot and a good 2nd-year center leading a .500 team and all are also under 26 so yeah we're doing pretty good. Meanwhile, the Magic will be forced to tank again since they're "treadmilling" with Bamba and Gordon.

[Chris76]

Coming from a fan of a team known as the ULTIMATE TREADMILL TEAM for the last decade plus. Treadmilling and knowing your team can't beat any big time team in the playoffs is the most boring crap possible and something you never want to be. Im not a big fan of tanking either but atleast tanking you have a chance to get younger and improve your team every year while having a better chance to land a franchise changing player easier. Plus it's awesome seeing talented young players grow compared to watching players you know won't ever get the job done stay exactly where they are.

Hinkie had a plan for the Sixers that was extreme because they had a small amount of assets after the terrible Bynum trade.

Cap space, draft picks, and other moves were as important as losing. He took chances to gain value like trading MCW, which was very controversial after winning rookie of the Year.

Atlanta is in an interesting position with some good young players, cap space, and draft picks. The NBA has some really good young talent and teams need a deep bench to compete.

GMs have some really difficult decisions to make for current and future rosters.

[King Ken]

Coming from a fan of a team known as the ULTIMATE TREADMILL TEAM for the last decade plus. Treadmilling and knowing your team can't beat any big time team in the playoffs is the most boring crap possible and something you never want to be. Im not a big fan of tanking either but atleast tanking you have a chance to get younger and improve your team every year while having a better chance to land a franchise changing player easier. Plus it's awesome seeing talented young players grow compared to watching players you know won't ever get the job done stay exactly where they are.

Hinkie had a plan for the Sixers that was extreme because they had a small amount of assets after the terrible Bynum trade.

Cap space, draft picks, and other moves were as important as losing. He took chances to gain value like trading MCW, which was very controversial after winning rookie of the Year.

Atlanta is in an interesting position with some good young players, cap space, and draft picks. The NBA has some really good young talent and teams need a deep bench to compete.

GMs have some really difficult decisions to make for current and future rosters.

We don't talk about it but before Al left, we started retooling. We tried to get as many assets on the fly as we knew it was up for our core. The new GM came in and made some tremendous moves and picks and we are in a favorable position moving forward. This year's draft will be critical for us in terms of filling out the core group. This offseason, getting the right center is also just as important

[Chinook]

In today's NBA, the best way to compete by far is to draft well and trade aggressively. The fear that stars aren't going to stay and the spectre of the DPE means stars are on the market almost every year. Getting a solid core of lesser stars and role-players and then moving some of those for a disgruntled star makes the most sense. You don't have to worry about luck in a trade. You don't have to worry about making cap space if you're trading. You don't have to go through awful seasons.

It's not obvious that if Davis is traded that a big-market team gets him. I could see someone selling the farm to try to get him into their club and make a run. Portland would be great for that. Cleveland or Indy could also make an attempt

[Threezus]

Coming from a fan of a team known as the ULTIMATE TREADMILL TEAM for the last decade plus. Treadmilling and knowing your team can't beat any big time team in the playoffs is the most boring crap possible and something you never want to be. Im not a big fan of tanking either but atleast tanking you have a chance to get younger and improve your team every year while having a better chance to land a franchise changing player easier. Plus it's awesome seeing talented young players grow compared to watching players you know won't ever get the job done stay exactly where they are.

you can rebuild without tanking.

That depends if you want to stay treadmilling and what team you are. For teams that are known not to be big free agent attractions and don't have atleast 1 top tier star already. Then thats almost impossible to do as very few if any stars were going to come to atlanta. Even on our 60 win team where we had 4 to 5 all stars everyone still considered us a joke that would get steamrolled by a team like the lebron cavs. Which after 2 sweeps back to back seasons they were proven right. You can't rebuild and get championship level contending players with 20 to 30 range picks and a team top tier free agents wouldn't come to. For teams like that tanking and trying to rebuild with young elite potential level players is the way to go and then you atleast have 1 to 5 range picks to trade for stars of teams that are needing to get rid of them for some reason or another.

[Cosmic_Backlash]

You're referencing teams that were never tanking in the first place. Maybe if the Magic committed to the tank instead of randomly going after a win-now piece in Ibaka, they would be in a better position right now.

They didn't even need to commit to "the tank", they just needed to not make multiple bad decisions in 1 summer. Ibaka + Biyombo signing destroyed all good things they had put together the previous years. They would have got better and much more flexibility if they basically chose to do nothing that summer.

[Prokorov]

Coming from a fan of a team known as the ULTIMATE TREADMILL TEAM for the last decade plus. Treadmilling and knowing your team can't beat any big time team in the playoffs is the most boring crap possible and something you never want to be. Im not a big fan of tanking either but atleast tanking you have a chance to get younger and improve your team every year while having a better chance to land a franchise changing player easier. Plus it's awesome seeing talented young players grow compared to watching players you know won't ever get the job done stay exactly where they are.

you can rebuild without tanking.

That depends if you want to stay treadmilling and what team you are. For teams that are known not to be big free agent attractions and don't have atleast 1 top tier star already. Then thats almost impossible to do as very few if any stars were going to come to atlanta. Even on our 60 win team where we had 4 to 5 all stars everyone still considered us a joke that would get steamrolled by a team like the lebron cavs. Which after 2 sweeps back to back seasons they were proven right. You can't rebuild and get championship level contending players with 20 to 30 range picks and a team top tier free agents wouldn't come to. For teams like that tanking and trying to rebuild with young elite potential level players is the way to go and then you atleast have 1 to 5 range picks to trade for stars of teams that are needing to get rid of them for some reason or another.

you dont need to sign stars... let your veterans expire and take what picks organically come to you while focusing on development and culture instead of purposely losing.

[theTrueJuve]

I am tempted to cite the Wolves as an example but then again, I had to realize that we did not tank intentionally in the last decade (at least not in every season) we were just terrible at rebuilding. So the title of the thread could be

Treadmilling is better than tanking which is better than being bad at rebuilding

[BigtimeNBAfan]

Tanking isn't the best option if you are a competitive team. I laugh when fans say teams like the Raptors should tank just because they aren't winning titles. If you are good, stay good and try to add pieces to get to the next step.
However if you are just fighting to make the playoffs every year and that is your ceiling, then absolutely tank. The Sixers had been a mediocre team for a decade. I don't blame them at all for tanking with the hope of improving over just struggling to win 40 games here and there.

[stilldropin20]

actually the best options seem to be:

1. 1-2 years of strategic tank

2. and play your best to win in all other years.

playing to win is obvious. You to see who your actual "winning players" are. create a winning culture. yada yada yada.

strategic tanking is also crucial as 2-3 special players seem to win all the championships each decade as MVP types. Bird, magic, MJ, Hakeem, Tim, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, steph, and KD in weird twist as a coat tail hanger on steph yet still an MVP in his own right. Those 10 MVP's have won 95% of the rings over the past 38 years. Crazy!

So tanking (or sucking) for one of these types of players in the draft is a crucial. I'm guessing Luka will eventually bring dallas some rings as well if they can surround him with a bunch of 3 and D types.

[Icandoallthings]

[vxmike]

I’d rather my team tank than get on the treadmill that Charlotte and Detroit have gotten onto.

Detroit has more or less been a late lottery team for a decade now. They’ve even made “solid” picks with most of their 1st rounders. Picks that showed enough promise early on that people would spend at least a couple years considering them as building blocks for the future. But it hasn’t gotten them anywhere relevant.

The Charlotte franchise has 1 playoff series win since their inception in 2004. They’re on their way to another 38-40 win season, and that’s with their best player having a career year. They should probably try a different strategy, unless of course they’re happy with their results. Just saying...

Detroit has made generally bad draft picks and signed guys to horrible FA deals (Gordon, Villanueva, Josh Smith). A better managed team would be a lot more competitive.