Do you think the NBA should stop giving teams multiple all stars just for having the best record?

[The_Hater]

No, why should players putting up empty stats get rewarded.

I feel like empty stats is being tossed around too easily. If every advanced metric shows that a team is better on the floor with a particular player, but the overall team result isn't there - can you really say he's putting up empty stats?

For example, if Khris Middelton was on the Wizards and Beal on the Bucks - Beal would be an all-star right now and Middelton wouldn't. This is not because their stats are suddenly translating into losses in Middeltons case and wins in Beals case, it's because Beal is now playing with Giannis and Middelton with Isaac Bonga.

Look at Damian Lillard. The Blazers were tied for the 5th best record in the league last year, this season they've almost already tied their entire loss total of the previous year while having 33 fewer wins.

TJ Warren is putting up almost identical stats to last year, but his team now has 31 wins vs. 19 wins for the entire season last year.

Did Damian Lillard just become and empty stats guy over night, and TJ Warren just figure out how to translate his stats into wins all of a sudden?

I get your general point, but Beal’s a terrible example. He was always overrated and this year he seems to have decided that he’s so important to the offense that he doesn’t have to try at all.

Middleton has better numbers than Beal this year and he’s MILES better on defense. If you switch them, the Bucks would definitely come back to the pack in the East and the Wizards would probably be in playoff position ahead of Brooklyn and/or Orlando.

While I agree that Beal’s case for the ASG isn’t nearly as strong as Middleton, I would stop far short of saying the Bucks would be worse with him instead of Middleton and the Wizards better. I disagree with both counts. I think Beal is the superior player and his effort level would obviously be better if he was playing for a good team playing meaningful games every night. That’s not to say that I don’t also think Middleton gets underrated by a great deal of people, especially on RGM.

[Mr Puddles]

No, why should players putting up empty stats get rewarded.

I feel like empty stats is being tossed around too easily. If every advanced metric shows that a team is better on the floor with a particular player, but the overall team result isn't there - can you really say he's putting up empty stats?

For example, if Khris Middelton was on the Wizards and Beal on the Bucks - Beal would be an all-star right now and Middelton wouldn't. This is not because their stats are suddenly translating into losses in Middeltons case and wins in Beals case, it's because Beal is now playing with Giannis and Middelton with Isaac Bonga.

Look at Damian Lillard. The Blazers were tied for the 5th best record in the league last year, this season they've almost already tied their entire loss total of the previous year while having 33 fewer wins.

TJ Warren is putting up almost identical stats to last year, but his team now has 31 wins vs. 19 wins for the entire season last year.

Did Damian Lillard just become and empty stats guy over night, and TJ Warren just figure out how to translate his stats into wins all of a sudden?

I get your general point, but Beal’s a terrible example. He was always overrated and this year he seems to have decided that he’s so important to the offense that he doesn’t have to try at all.

Middleton has better numbers than Beal this year and he’s MILES better on defense. If you switch them, the Bucks would definitely come back to the pack in the East and the Wizards would probably be in playoff position ahead of Brooklyn and/or Orlando.

While I agree that Beal’s case for the ASG isn’t nearly as strong as Middleton, I would stop far short of saying the Bucks would be worse with him instead of Middleton and the Wizards better. I disagree with both counts. I think Beal is the superior player and his effort level would obviously be better if he was playing for a good team playing meaningful games every night. That’s not to say that I don’t also think Middleton gets underrated by a great deal of people, especially on RGM.

That's actually kind of my point - I probably didn't explain it very clearly.

I wasn't making an indictment on whether or not Middelton is a deserving allstar and Beal a snub. My point is that with the same production, only a switch in team, the Bucks would likely still have been good enough to warrent 2 allstars and the Wizards would have been given non on account of them likely still being a near bottomn team in the East. This almost certainly means that Beal would have made the allstar team as the Bucks second best player, and Middelton would not have made it as the best player on a bad team.

Booker and Westbrook probably would have been a better example but I also didn't want the overall point to be distorted by coming across as a bitter Suns fan.

[ShotCreator]

Bradley Beal is a disgrace to winning basketball. He’s the worst high minutes defender in the NBA and he’s in his athletic peak.

He really hasn’t been good this season at all and he’s got to be having one of the worst high-scoring seasons I’ve ever seen, if not all-time.

[iggymcfrack]

I feel like empty stats is being tossed around too easily. If every advanced metric shows that a team is better on the floor with a particular player, but the overall team result isn't there - can you really say he's putting up empty stats?

For example, if Khris Middelton was on the Wizards and Beal on the Bucks - Beal would be an all-star right now and Middelton wouldn't. This is not because their stats are suddenly translating into losses in Middeltons case and wins in Beals case, it's because Beal is now playing with Giannis and Middelton with Isaac Bonga.

Look at Damian Lillard. The Blazers were tied for the 5th best record in the league last year, this season they've almost already tied their entire loss total of the previous year while having 33 fewer wins.

TJ Warren is putting up almost identical stats to last year, but his team now has 31 wins vs. 19 wins for the entire season last year.

Did Damian Lillard just become and empty stats guy over night, and TJ Warren just figure out how to translate his stats into wins all of a sudden?

I get your general point, but Beal’s a terrible example. He was always overrated and this year he seems to have decided that he’s so important to the offense that he doesn’t have to try at all.

Middleton has better numbers than Beal this year and he’s MILES better on defense. If you switch them, the Bucks would definitely come back to the pack in the East and the Wizards would probably be in playoff position ahead of Brooklyn and/or Orlando.

While I agree that Beal’s case for the ASG isn’t nearly as strong as Middleton, I would stop far short of saying the Bucks would be worse with him instead of Middleton and the Wizards better. I disagree with both counts. I think Beal is the superior player and his effort level would obviously be better if he was playing for a good team playing meaningful games every night. That’s not to say that I don’t also think Middleton gets underrated by a great deal of people, especially on RGM.

That's actually kind of my point - I probably didn't explain it very clearly.

I wasn't making an indictment on whether or not Middelton is a deserving allstar and Beal a snub. My point is that with the same production, only a switch in team, the Bucks would likely still have been good enough to warrent 2 allstars and the Wizards would have been given non on account of them likely still being a near bottomn team in the East. This almost certainly means that Beal would have made the allstar team as the Bucks second best player, and Middelton would not have made it as the best player on a bad team.

Booker and Westbrook probably would have been a better example but I also didn't want the overall point to be distorted by coming across as a bitter Suns fan.

Beal still wouldn’t be the Bucks’ second best player and Middleton would still be an all-star. Maybe Bledsoe gets voted in over Lowry in that scenario to make sure the Bucks still get an all-star, but without the high raw PPG playing big minutes with no one else to score, I doubt Beal would even get the attention that he has.

Like I get that in the past this was a common issue, but it just seems weird to take issue with it now when the top teams in each conference both have 2 very clear all-stars and the teams just below them (Clippers and Nuggets) are only getting one player each.

[Shoe]

Bradley Beal is a disgrace to winning basketball. He’s the worst high minutes defender in the NBA and he’s in his athletic peak.

He really hasn’t been good this season at all and he’s got to be having one of the worst high-scoring seasons I’ve ever seen, if not all-time.

Every basketball player and coach at every level of the game would laugh at you for saying that. You look at a few stats and call someone a disgrace. The Wizards are one of the youngest, most injured teams in the league, they play more zone than anyone else, they have the most G-Leaguers getting minutes. Beal's backcourt teammates Isaiah Thomas and Ish Smith cannot stay in front of their man and his rim protectors are big stiff Ian Mahinmi and Davis Bertans.

[ShotCreator]

Bradley Beal is a disgrace to winning basketball. He’s the worst high minutes defender in the NBA and he’s in his athletic peak.

He really hasn’t been good this season at all and he’s got to be having one of the worst high-scoring seasons I’ve ever seen, if not all-time.

Every basketball player and coach at every level of the game would laugh at you for saying that. You look at a few stats and call someone a disgrace. The Wizards are one of the youngest, most injured teams in the league, they play more zone than anyone else, they have the most G-Leaguers getting minutes. Beal's backcourt teammates Isaiah Thomas and Ish Smith cannot stay in front of their man and his rim protectors are big stiff Ian Mahinmi and Davis Bertans.

Your logic doesn’t work. Why would every single impact stat specifically cast him out?

And it’s not like the same stats don’t capture his offensive game as star level. They do.

[Shoe]

Bradley Beal is a disgrace to winning basketball. He’s the worst high minutes defender in the NBA and he’s in his athletic peak.

He really hasn’t been good this season at all and he’s got to be having one of the worst high-scoring seasons I’ve ever seen, if not all-time.

Every basketball player and coach at every level of the game would laugh at you for saying that. You look at a few stats and call someone a disgrace. The Wizards are one of the youngest, most injured teams in the league, they play more zone than anyone else, they have the most G-Leaguers getting minutes. Beal's backcourt teammates Isaiah Thomas and Ish Smith cannot stay in front of their man and his rim protectors are big stiff Ian Mahinmi and Davis Bertans.

Your logic doesn’t work. Why would every single impact stat specifically cast him out?

And it’s not like the same stats don’t capture his offensive game as star level. They do.

Read on Twitter

[Danny1616]

It has to be a combination of statistics, contributing to a winning team, and the help that somebody has around them.

I mean it baffled me how some experts were considering Rose over Lowry when Lowry has been better statistically in most categories, has a better RPM, and has been the most consistent player on the 2nd place team in the East.

I think Booker or Derozan deserved it over Ingram.

I also think Beal had a strong case over Middleton or Bam.

[dhsilv2]

Well shucks, Missed this was an old thread I'd already responded too.

[dhsilv2]

sorry double post.

[PushDaRock]

I think Booker deserves to be there. 27 ppg on 63% TS is amazing even on a bad team.

[Shoe]

No, why should players putting up empty stats get rewarded.

I feel like empty stats is being tossed around too easily. If every advanced metric shows that a team is better on the floor with a particular player, but the overall team result isn't there - can you really say he's putting up empty stats?

For example, if Khris Middelton was on the Wizards and Beal on the Bucks - Beal would be an all-star right now and Middelton wouldn't. This is not because their stats are suddenly translating into losses in Middeltons case and wins in Beals case, it's because Beal is now playing with Giannis and Middelton with Isaac Bonga.

Look at Damian Lillard. The Blazers were tied for the 5th best record in the league last year, this season they've almost already tied their entire loss total of the previous year while having 33 fewer wins.

TJ Warren is putting up almost identical stats to last year, but his team now has 31 wins vs. 19 wins for the entire season last year.

Did Damian Lillard just become and empty stats guy over night, and TJ Warren just figure out how to translate his stats into wins all of a sudden?

I get your general point, but Beal’s a terrible example. He was always overrated and this year he seems to have decided that he’s so important to the offense that he doesn’t have to try at all.

Middleton has better numbers than Beal this year and he’s MILES better on defense. If you switch them, the Bucks would definitely come back to the pack in the East and the Wizards would probably be in playoff position ahead of Brooklyn and/or Orlando.

This is so laughable I can only think you don't actually watch basketball or you're trolling. Khris Middleton would be dribbling the ball off his leg if he had to face the coverage Beal does on a nightly basis. I'm not evening knocking Middleton because he is a good player, but that is poor understanding of basketball if you think Middleton could lead this Wizards team to the playoffs. Here is the truth: come playoff time every Bucks fan is going to be wishing they had Beal instead of Middleton. A star scores against teams that scheme their whole defense for them.

[timO]

Nah, stat padders on lottery teams are not ASG deserve.

Beal can go cry at home wich his 29 PPG with a putrid 32% from 3.

[Shoe]

Nah, stat padders on lottery teams are not ASG deserve.

Beal can go cry at home wich his 29 PPG with a putrid 32% from 3.

58 TS%. Time to change the name to "Solid players on playoff teams" weekend.

[timO]

TS% is a joke

FT padders dont get calls as easy in playoffs.

[PizzaSteve]

IMHO meaningless stats should not matter more than doing the things that result in a winning team and winning games, so I disagree. Being the front piece on a losing squad is not worth rewarding, unless it clearly outshines those who are winning be a large margin. The point of basketball is to win games. That means sometimes taking bad shots at end of buzzer that hurt stats, but might win the game, playing team defense, etc. Rewarding those who are betting it done makes sense to me, as I dont like the star worship culture, I prefer the team oriented model.

[Ferulci]

"Let's be upset because Khris Middleton got selected over a player I like".

Meanwhile, he is averaging 25/7/5 per 36 on 50/40/90 while playing awesome defense for a team on pace to get 70 wins.

[ShotCreator]

Every basketball player and coach at every level of the game would laugh at you for saying that. You look at a few stats and call someone a disgrace. The Wizards are one of the youngest, most injured teams in the league, they play more zone than anyone else, they have the most G-Leaguers getting minutes. Beal's backcourt teammates Isaiah Thomas and Ish Smith cannot stay in front of their man and his rim protectors are big stiff Ian Mahinmi and Davis Bertans.

Your logic doesn’t work. Why would every single impact stat specifically cast him out?

And it’s not like the same stats don’t capture his offensive game as star level. They do.

Read on Twitter

This literally legitimizes how his bad impact is magnified.

He is taking on the most important perimeter task and doing an abominable job at it.

Honestly that’s perfect context.


OTOH this shows me how Butler is rating out as a massive impact guy defensively even compared to previous best years. He’s doing the opposite.

[mudsak]

I honestly don't think there are any guys on the All-Star rosters who don't deserve to be there.

Are there some snubs?... of course, there are ALWAYS snubs.

Does it make sense that a team with a better record, and equally performing player makes the cut instead of the star on a bottom-feeding team?... probably.

[Patsfan1081]

Bradley Beal is a disgrace to winning basketball. He’s the worst high minutes defender in the NBA and he’s in his athletic peak.

He really hasn’t been good this season at all and he’s got to be having one of the worst high-scoring seasons I’ve ever seen, if not all-time.

I agree with this premise for the most part. It seems like fans just forget defense is half the game. I understand that the all star game is a offensive showcase however defense does create offense, and coaches do pay attention to how much effort is put on the defensive end. It's no surprise that the reserves named like Middleton, Tatum, and Bam happen to be alsonhighly rated defenders.