If LeBron James & KD never became ring chasers, where would they be in all-time list?

[ZemGOAT]

Lower

[r0drig0lac]

About where they are since rings are largely an accomplishment of management

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

no way

[nedleeds]

get "easy" rings.

[nurseryc]

They’re both ring chasers. I can’t believe the revisionist history in relation to Lebron. When he went to Miami, everyone believed them when they said not 1, not 2, not 3...

He joined Wade and Bosh who were both top 10 players at the time.

Think about it, that’s like Giannis joining up with Davis and Lillard right now. Then adding one of the best shooters of all time in Ray Allen and plenty of perfect role players.

Then goes back to Cleveland with a #1 pick in Irving coming into his own plus Love who at the time was a top 15 player.

Then don’t get me started on playing with AD and the Lakers.

You might say management screwed up his early years but that happens to most young superstars because they get drafted to bad teams. It’s just the way it is. Lebron has played with some of the best players in NBA history but all we hear is he had no help. Give me a fricken break

Wade was top 2-3 player in their nba when he teamed up with Lebron. Bosh was arguably top 5.

[ProfessorJM]

I personally have not moved Durant anywhere else at all based on his titles but I would still have him pretty high as he is still a great player to me. Without the Cleveland title (which I consider 10 times more impressive than his two in Miami), I don't know if I have LeBron in the Top 3 so easily, but he's still Top 10 for me easily.

[chitownsalesmen]

Ring chaser as I've always understood it, means an older, but still useful player whose signing for league minimum to come off the bench for a contending team. Typically after getting bought out or cut after getting traded.


To call LeBron or KD ring chasers is to stretch the definition of ring chaser to mean something it just doesn't mean.

[Marty McFly]

I don't think LeBron enters the GOAT conversation till his career is over; I think it's probably both the cavs and the thunder meet in the finals as well, maybe taking a title a piece. the warriors would more than likely have one more title to their name.

[TheNG]

LeBron would have been in a similar status to Karl Malone, Barkley etc.
Saying that, I'm actually happy LeBron became a ring chaser. It gave us the opportunity to see what material he's really made of. Seeing him losing in the finals time after time made it clear he's not made from the MJ/KAJ/Russell material, so no one can claim he's the same tier as them.

[Drygon]

Wade was top 2-3 player in their nba when he teamed up with Lebron. Bosh was arguably top 5.

Maybe not top 5, but arguably 10 top player.

He was putting up a career year of 24 ppg & 11 rpg while shooting 59.2% TS. Which is better than likes of Dirk, KG & Duncan who all had worse TS% than Chris Bosh. Only Amare Stoudemare had better efficency, although he had to Steve Nash while Chris Bosh's had José Calderon at point guard position.

Chris Bosh was the best power forward in NBA during 2009-10 season IMHO.

[ellobo]

Lebron is obviously crucial in every title he's won. Doesn't mean he'd win them organically though. If he stayed in Cleveland he doesn't get past Boston till 2013 for example. Probably loses to the Spurs that year, and the next, then Golden State comes on the scene. Who knows how it would have shook out, but I doubt he has 3 or as many finals appearances. Durant may have beat Boston in 2012 as well.

May have hurt Durants legacy more than he helped his own

What does "organically" mean in this context?

Players change teams frequently due to trades and free agency. Teams and players are always seeking out the best situation with the best chance to win championships. The only exceptions are players who are willing to go to a lesser team for a bigger role or more money (which we often judge negatively), and sometimes geographic location, players who don't have a choice because they have limited suitors in free agency, and teams who are trying to save money or sacrifice current success for (they hope) a better chance to win a ring in the future.

Everyone is chasing rings because winning rings is the competitive object of the sport.

Which ways to do it are "organic" and which aren't?

[trueballer7]

Lebron is obviously crucial in every title he's won. Doesn't mean he'd win them organically though. If he stayed in Cleveland he doesn't get past Boston till 2013 for example. Probably loses to the Spurs that year, and the next, then Golden State comes on the scene. Who knows how it would have shook out, but I doubt he has 3 or as many finals appearances. Durant may have beat Boston in 2012 as well.

May have hurt Durants legacy more than he helped his own

What does "organically" mean in this context?

Players change teams frequently due to trades and free agency. Teams and players are always seeking out the best situation with the best chance to win championships. The only exceptions are players who are willing to go to a lesser team for a bigger role or more money (which we often judge negatively), and sometimes geographic location, players who don't have a choice because they have limited suitors in free agency, and teams who are trying to save money or sacrifice current success for (they hope) a better chance to win a ring in the future.

Everyone is chasing rings because winning rings is the competitive object of the sport.

Which ways to do it are "organic" and which aren't?

Organically means, doing the best you can with the cards you were dealt. Which was not the case with Lebron or Durant. Both of them stacked the deck in their favor in order to win what others before them did organically.

[Marty McFly]

Lebron is obviously crucial in every title he's won. Doesn't mean he'd win them organically though. If he stayed in Cleveland he doesn't get past Boston till 2013 for example. Probably loses to the Spurs that year, and the next, then Golden State comes on the scene. Who knows how it would have shook out, but I doubt he has 3 or as many finals appearances. Durant may have beat Boston in 2012 as well.

May have hurt Durants legacy more than he helped his own

What does "organically" mean in this context?

Players change teams frequently due to trades and free agency. Teams and players are always seeking out the best situation with the best chance to win championships. The only exceptions are players who are willing to go to a lesser team for a bigger role or more money (which we often judge negatively), and sometimes geographic location, players who don't have a choice because they have limited suitors in free agency, and teams who are trying to save money or sacrifice current success for (they hope) a better chance to win a ring in the future.

Everyone is chasing rings because winning rings is the competitive object of the sport.

Which ways to do it are "organic" and which aren't?

Organically means, doing the best you can with the cards you were dealt. Which was not the case with Lebron or Durant. Both of them stacked the deck in their favor in order to win what others before them did organically.

as in, win them in spite of a shite front office.

[ellobo]

Lebron is obviously crucial in every title he's won. Doesn't mean he'd win them organically though. If he stayed in Cleveland he doesn't get past Boston till 2013 for example. Probably loses to the Spurs that year, and the next, then Golden State comes on the scene. Who knows how it would have shook out, but I doubt he has 3 or as many finals appearances. Durant may have beat Boston in 2012 as well.

May have hurt Durants legacy more than he helped his own

What does "organically" mean in this context?

Players change teams frequently due to trades and free agency. Teams and players are always seeking out the best situation with the best chance to win championships. The only exceptions are players who are willing to go to a lesser team for a bigger role or more money (which we often judge negatively), and sometimes geographic location, players who don't have a choice because they have limited suitors in free agency, and teams who are trying to save money or sacrifice current success for (they hope) a better chance to win a ring in the future.

Everyone is chasing rings because winning rings is the competitive object of the sport.

Which ways to do it are "organic" and which aren't?

Organically means, doing the best you can with the cards you were dealt. Which was not the case with Lebron or Durant. Both of them stacked the deck in their favor in order to win what others before them did organically.

The cards they were dealt? You mean being unrestricted free agents? Didn't they try to do the best they could with those cards?

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Everyone is a ring chaser.

[trueballer7]

What does "organically" mean in this context?

Players change teams frequently due to trades and free agency. Teams and players are always seeking out the best situation with the best chance to win championships. The only exceptions are players who are willing to go to a lesser team for a bigger role or more money (which we often judge negatively), and sometimes geographic location, players who don't have a choice because they have limited suitors in free agency, and teams who are trying to save money or sacrifice current success for (they hope) a better chance to win a ring in the future.

Everyone is chasing rings because winning rings is the competitive object of the sport.

Which ways to do it are "organic" and which aren't?

Organically means, doing the best you can with the cards you were dealt. Which was not the case with Lebron or Durant. Both of them stacked the deck in their favor in order to win what others before them did organically.

as in, win them in spite of a shite front office.

Them not winning being the proof of the front office being shite, is quite a convenient proposition and one that tens of great players of the past would have loved to have benefited from, but they didnt, because they didnt like excuses much and they didnt have gigantic media propaganda to sell it efficiently. Unfortunately for both of them, this type of circular, tautological, argument can be easily evaluated and put in the correct perspective based on their whole career in the NBA, a combined 30 years that has resulted in 5 titles overall, 2 of which came by the thinnest of margins and a combination of extraordinary conditions for one and another 2 coming with a team that had already won a championship before for the other. Not exactly the production that you would expect with a non shite front office.

[Marcus_Shart]

Lebron is obviously crucial in every title he's won. Doesn't mean he'd win them organically though. If he stayed in Cleveland he doesn't get past Boston till 2013 for example. Probably loses to the Spurs that year, and the next, then Golden State comes on the scene. Who knows how it would have shook out, but I doubt he has 3 or as many finals appearances. Durant may have beat Boston in 2012 as well.

May have hurt Durants legacy more than he helped his own

What does "organically" mean in this context?

Players change teams frequently due to trades and free agency. Teams and players are always seeking out the best situation with the best chance to win championships. The only exceptions are players who are willing to go to a lesser team for a bigger role or more money (which we often judge negatively), and sometimes geographic location, players who don't have a choice because they have limited suitors in free agency, and teams who are trying to save money or sacrifice current success for (they hope) a better chance to win a ring in the future.

Everyone is chasing rings because winning rings is the competitive object of the sport.

Which ways to do it are "organic" and which aren't?

Well, Durant left a contending team he had made the finals with for a team that had already won. He was able to do so only because of a once in a lifetime freak spike in the cap, and some lucky timing between injuries and contracts for said team.

Lebron colluded with 3 of his buddies to try and create a super team, and it's revisionist history to say otherwise. Those stars didn't align by chance. The whole premise of the thread is if they didn't do these things. Not whether they were right/wrong/warranted etc.

[NPZ]

OP, you screwed the premise up w/ the wrong term. Brawn wasn't a ring chaser w/ Miami by anyone's understanding of the term ring chaser. Payton and Malone were ring chasers. Brawn and Miami's Tres Amigos were co-LOOO-ders. Their and Elvira's wombs were so colloooded according to Tony Montana. KD was mos def a colluder, too. Brawn actually looked better compared to KD considering how wanton, lustful, and "thirsty" (as the kids say) his collusion was to join the 73 win team that beat his own in the playoffs. I think most fans don't really think of Miami when they consider Brawn now. It's not on the front of their minds because he went back to Cleve and he's trying to push the not-so-long-ago joke Lakers up the mountaintop. KD on the other hand is still called Cupcake, etc, and is still derided and decried by leaguewide fans every time his name is brought up. Otoh, you can have a Brawn discussion where Miami never even comes up. The Cleveland win was the final breaking point for most of his staunchest haters because he came back and did the old school winning a title with his first team (which had never won before, and a city that takes 50 years to win titles IF they're lucky). KD doesn't have the luxury of such a title as much as he wants to tout his GS title as legitimate.

[Marcus_Shart]

OP, you screwed the premise up w/ the wrong term. Brawn wasn't a ring chaser w/ Miami by anyone's understanding of the term ring chaser. Payton and Malone were ring chasers. Brawn and Miami's Tres Amigos were co-LOOO-ders. Their and Elvira's wombs were so colloooded according to Tony Montana. KD was mos def a colluder, too. Brawn actually looked better compared to KD considering how wanton, lustful, and "thirsty" (as the kids say) his collusion was to join the 73 win team that beat his own in the playoffs. I think most fans don't really think of Miami when they consider Brawn now. It's not on the front of their minds because he went back to Cleve and he's trying to push the not-so-long-ago joke Lakers up the mountaintop. KD on the other hand is still called Cupcake, etc, and is still derided and decried by leaguewide fans every time his name is brought up. Otoh, you can have a Brawn discussion where Miami never even comes up. The Cleveland win was the final breaking point for most of his staunchest haters because he came back and did the old school winning a title with his first team (which had never won before, and a city that takes 50 years to win titles IF they're lucky). KD doesn't have the luxury of such a title as much as he wants to tout his GS title as legitimate.

Yeah, Lebron went back to Ohio and did a frame off rotisserie restoration on his rep. Durant is still pulling that crap out of the junkyard! SHAMBLES!

[NPZ]

OP, you screwed the premise up w/ the wrong term. Brawn wasn't a ring chaser w/ Miami by anyone's understanding of the term ring chaser. Payton and Malone were ring chasers. Brawn and Miami's Tres Amigos were co-LOOO-ders. Their and Elvira's wombs were so colloooded according to Tony Montana. KD was mos def a colluder, too. Brawn actually looked better compared to KD considering how wanton, lustful, and "thirsty" (as the kids say) his collusion was to join the 73 win team that beat his own in the playoffs. I think most fans don't really think of Miami when they consider Brawn now. It's not on the front of their minds because he went back to Cleve and he's trying to push the not-so-long-ago joke Lakers up the mountaintop. KD on the other hand is still called Cupcake, etc, and is still derided and decried by leaguewide fans every time his name is brought up. Otoh, you can have a Brawn discussion where Miami never even comes up. The Cleveland win was the final breaking point for most of his staunchest haters because he came back and did the old school winning a title with his first team (which had never won before, and a city that takes 50 years to win titles IF they're lucky). KD doesn't have the luxury of such a title as much as he wants to tout his GS title as legitimate.

Yeah, Lebron went back to Ohio and did a frame off rotisserie restoration on his rep. Durant is still pulling that crap out of the junkyard! SHAMBLES!

I'm convinced LeBron is HEMI powered now that you mention it. If he were a car, he'd be a 68 Charger, blacked out.

[Marcus_Shart]

OP, you screwed the premise up w/ the wrong term. Brawn wasn't a ring chaser w/ Miami by anyone's understanding of the term ring chaser. Payton and Malone were ring chasers. Brawn and Miami's Tres Amigos were co-LOOO-ders. Their and Elvira's wombs were so colloooded according to Tony Montana. KD was mos def a colluder, too. Brawn actually looked better compared to KD considering how wanton, lustful, and "thirsty" (as the kids say) his collusion was to join the 73 win team that beat his own in the playoffs. I think most fans don't really think of Miami when they consider Brawn now. It's not on the front of their minds because he went back to Cleve and he's trying to push the not-so-long-ago joke Lakers up the mountaintop. KD on the other hand is still called Cupcake, etc, and is still derided and decried by leaguewide fans every time his name is brought up. Otoh, you can have a Brawn discussion where Miami never even comes up. The Cleveland win was the final breaking point for most of his staunchest haters because he came back and did the old school winning a title with his first team (which had never won before, and a city that takes 50 years to win titles IF they're lucky). KD doesn't have the luxury of such a title as much as he wants to tout his GS title as legitimate.

Yeah, Lebron went back to Ohio and did a frame off rotisserie restoration on his rep. Durant is still pulling that crap out of the junkyard! SHAMBLES!

I'm convinced LeBron is HEMI powered now that you mention it. If he were a car, he'd be a 68 Charger, blacked out.

He's not matching numbers anymore after that Miami stunt, but he for sure came with a Hemi. Just has a replacement block now.