Who are the good 1 on 1 Defenders MJ faced?

[AussieCeltic]

Lol. Copy & pasting a list of guys who played the SG-SF position back then saying “good defender” doesn’t actually prove they were good defenders.

The same is true conversely.

I would love to hear your argument that guys like Kawhi, Bruce Bowen, Iguodala, Draymond & Shawn Marion aren’t good defenders.

I actually believe Kobe played against much tougher defenders & defensive schemes than Jordan did too. MJ was routinely guarded by short guys or unathletic wings. OP’s first post went down the list of his primary defenders in big series, the footage backs it up, yet I see you guys come in here and start listing names off random rosters.

MJ after retiring for 3 years and at age 39 vs Shawn Marion

41 points, 7 assists
22 points, 4 assists

MJ at age 40

19 points (9/14 shooting)
14 points

So he had 1 bad game at age 40 pretty much right at the end of his career. He still averaged 24 points against Marion when he was well past his prime and Shawn Marion was right in the middle of his.

[LKN]

The funny thing about this thread is that MJ and LeBron have some things in common. One of these things is that both are extremely quick for their size (Jordan has true PG quickness in a SG/SF frame while LeBron has true SF quickness in a PF frame) and teams often prefer to guard them with smaller quicker guys.

Better to live with either guy shooting over his defender than let him blow by and get to the rim. Of course MJ and LBJ both developed ways to make teams pay for this too... but that's another topic

[AussieCeltic]

Other great old man MJ games at age 39 and 40.

39 on Latrell Sprewell
32 on Tmac/Grant Hill
43 on Richard Jefferson
35 on James Posey (defensive specialist)
44 on AK47
37 on Kendall Gill/Eddie Jones with Zo protecting the ring

There were plenty other 40/50 point games as well at that age. Which was 1 season before LBJ hit the league

[HypeMode]

LeBron has faced:

Bruce Bowen (8 time All-Defensive team)
Draymond Green (4 times) (5 time all-defensive team)
Andre Iguodala (4 times) (2 time all-defensive team)
Kawhi Leonard (2 times) (2x Defensive Player of the year)
Kevin Durant (3 times)
Shawn Marion

LeBron literally faced off against an All-Defensive Player wing every single time he went to the finals. Dan Majerle, Byron Scott, Bryon Russell cannot compare to that.

[Antinomy]

LeBron has faced:

Bruce Bowen (8 time All-Defensive team)
Draymond Green (4 times) (5 time all-defensive team)
Andre Iguodala (4 times) (2 time all-defensive team)
Kawhi Leonard (2 times) (2x Defensive Player of the year)
Kevin Durant (3 times)
Shawn Marion

LeBron literally faced off against an All-Defensive Player wing every single time he went to the finals. Dan Majerle, Byron Scott, Bryon Russell cannot compare to that.

I’m literally ignoring them at this point. I’m happy to debate over other aspects of the MJ-LBJ debate, but this is not one of them. Lebron (and Kobe) faced much better defensive competition from guys who are actually equipped to defend them.

One of them really told me he would take CP3 over Kawhi to guard Jordan. They cannot be reasoned with.

[capu]

Watch on YouTube

At 34 vs Mase (6,7 240lbs) 33 pts .517

Watch on YouTube

Vs Rodman (best defender ever?)

[Antinomy]

Now guys like Kawhi, Iguodala & co are not big enough to guard Lebron lmaooo.

Kawhi at 6’7 230 & a 7’3 wingspan isn’t equipped to guard Lebron...

Iguodala at 6’6 225 & a 7’0 wingspan isn’t equipped to guard Lebron....

Who’s next? Paul George? Tony Allen? Bruce Bowen? Funny enough, there were hardly any guys built like that in Jordan’s era. These dudes have legit SF size with the lateral quickness of a SG. A throwback guy like Anthony Mason was more of a small PF than an actual wing.

It’s honestly embarrassing the lengths you go to. If you guys weren’t so fixated on calling ppl who don’t think Jordan = GOAT idiots, you’d actually have a better perspective.

[jrask]

LeBron has faced:

Bruce Bowen (8 time All-Defensive team)
Draymond Green (4 times) (5 time all-defensive team)
Andre Iguodala (4 times) (2 time all-defensive team)
Kawhi Leonard (2 times) (2x Defensive Player of the year)
Kevin Durant (3 times)
Shawn Marion

LeBron literally faced off against an All-Defensive Player wing every single time he went to the finals. Dan Majerle, Byron Scott, Bryon Russell cannot compare to that.

can you start another "anti MJ" topic again tomorrow?

[LKN]

Someone should tell Chuck Daly (RIP) that he was doing it wrong. Should have been using Rodman on MJ instead of Dumars all those years.

Also Mutombo was terrible - Shaq totally abused that guy.

Same with Bowen - couldn't stop Kobe at all

[Catchall]

You're missing: Reggie Miller, Penny Hardaway, Nick Anderson, Bryon Russell, Dennis Rodman, Clyde Drexler...

[prophet_of_rage]

this is the stupidest thing i have read

Okay, let's think basketball.

With a Scottie/Michael duo can you defend Pippen with a small guard?

If the answer is no then you have to put that small guard on Jordan.

Advantage Jordan, correct?

When Jordan came back to Washington, could you put a smaller defender on Richard Hamilton and a bigger more athletic one on Jordan?

Could you put a small guard on Pippen in Houston and Portland? No. Size and speed mismatches were always an advantage in match ups.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

This was pretty common during the second 3-peat when Jordan had slowed down enough athletically for bigger guys to defend him - see the Jazz in 97 and 98 with Byron Russell on Jordan and Hornacek on Pippen.

Utah did it. It wasn't common. New York didn't do it and they were the Bulls biggest challengers. Seattle didn't do. Hell, even the lowly Bobcats guarded him with Armstrong. Not a lot of small forwards tried to guard Jordan for an entire game.

[prophet_of_rage]

Eh, people often bring up a bunch of guys much smaller than LeBron as well when listing the great defenders he's faced.

Like who? Tony Allen?

Kawhi was 2 inches shorter and 40lbs lighter than Miami Bron. Iguadala is 3 inches shorter and 30+lbs lighter than Cleveland Bron.

If Bron played in the post he would have beat them both. MJ played in the post. Guards didn't play down there. It was tough for them. He could just jump over them.

[Not Suave Rico]

This was about 5 months ago.

Watch on YouTube

[magicman1978]

LeBron has faced:

Bruce Bowen (8 time All-Defensive team)
Draymond Green (4 times) (5 time all-defensive team)
Andre Iguodala (4 times) (2 time all-defensive team)
Kawhi Leonard (2 times) (2x Defensive Player of the year)
Kevin Durant (3 times)
Shawn Marion

LeBron literally faced off against an All-Defensive Player wing every single time he went to the finals. Dan Majerle, Byron Scott, Bryon Russell cannot compare to that.

Putting aside the fact that Jordan (9) and Pippen (10) (19 total to 6 for LeBron as he didn't have any perimeter all defense teammates) took up a lot of the all defense team spots that others could have taken, you have:

Rodman - 4 times (2-time DPOY, 8-time all defensive team)
Dumars - 4 times (5 time all defense team)
Moncrief (5 time all defense team)
Pressey (3 time all defense team)
Johnson - 2 times (9 time all defense team)
D.Harper (2 time all defense team)
Payton (DPOY, 8 time all defense team)
McMillan (2 time all defense team)
Mckey - 2 times (2 time all defense team)
Phills - 2 times (1 time all defense team)
Starks 3 times (1 time all defense team)
Mason 3 times (1 time all defense team)

[magicman1978]

Okay, let's think basketball.

With a Scottie/Michael duo can you defend Pippen with a small guard?

If the answer is no then you have to put that small guard on Jordan.

Advantage Jordan, correct?

When Jordan came back to Washington, could you put a smaller defender on Richard Hamilton and a bigger more athletic one on Jordan?

Could you put a small guard on Pippen in Houston and Portland? No. Size and speed mismatches were always an advantage in match ups.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

This was pretty common during the second 3-peat when Jordan had slowed down enough athletically for bigger guys to defend him - see the Jazz in 97 and 98 with Byron Russell on Jordan and Hornacek on Pippen.

Utah did it. It wasn't common. New York didn't do it and they were the Bulls biggest challengers. Seattle didn't do. Hell, even the lowly Bobcats guarded him with Armstrong. Not a lot of small forwards tried to guard Jordan for an entire game.

Maybe because it wasn't very effective up until 97 and 98

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Guys like Alvin Roberts would have destroyed Pat Beverly, and had him working the streets. Even guys like Dug Cristie would be considered elite in this era. Those are just guys on the Raptors bench during this point in time, the league was stacked during Jordan's run.

[magicman1978]

Like who? Tony Allen?

Kawhi was 2 inches shorter and 40lbs lighter than Miami Bron. Iguadala is 3 inches shorter and 30+lbs lighter than Cleveland Bron.

If Bron played in the post he would have beat them both. MJ played in the post. Guards didn't play down there. It was tough for them. He could just jump over them.

You mixing up the two version of MJ. Young MJ didn't play in the post as much, which is why they could defend him with smaller players. Second 3-peat MJ was posting up more. Which is why you could put guys like Russell, Wilkins, Cheaney, Smith, Gill, Phills, etc. on him those years.

[LKN]

Kawhi was 2 inches shorter and 40lbs lighter than Miami Bron. Iguadala is 3 inches shorter and 30+lbs lighter than Cleveland Bron.

If Bron played in the post he would have beat them both. MJ played in the post. Guards didn't play down there. It was tough for them. He could just jump over them.

You mixing up the two version of MJ. Young MJ didn't play in the post as much, which is why they could defend him with smaller players. Second 3-peat MJ was posting up more. Which is why you could put guys like Russell, Wilkins, Cheaney, Smith, Gill, Phills, etc. on him those years.

It was more common during the 2nd threepeat... but smaller guys were often still used. MJ could still blow by guys when he needed to, but he picked his spots a lot more. So there's some truth to what you are saying. I don't think length every really bothered him though, so it was often better to keep using small guys to stop the threat of the drive (even if less likely)

[LeCalinou]

We all know that MJ was a spectacular offensive player. Looking back at his Last Dance highlights I noticed something that no one else caught on to. The disturbing lack of good defensive players that MJ went against that were his size. It seemed like every perimeter player on the MJ highlight videos were 3 inches shorter and 30 lbs lighter than MJ. Where are the size appropriate defensive wizards he faced off against like a Kawhi, Artest, Draymond, George, Allen, Marion, etc. I went back to see the guys MJ played against and they were all undersized.

Dennis Johnson: 6' 4, 185 lbs
Craig Ehlo: 6' 6, 190 lbs
Dumars: 6' 3, 190 lbs
Byron Scott: 6' 3, 195 lbs
Starks: 6' 3, 180 lbs
Majerle: 6' 6, 215 lbs
Kevin Johnson: 6' 1, 180 lbs
Hawkins: 6' 3, 190 lbs
Gary Payton: 6-4, 180 lbs
Hornacek: 6' 3, 190 lbs

I don't see many good defensive players on this list. It's not a coincidence that MJ had his biggest struggles when he faced the only 2 good defensive players on this list (Dumars and Payton). If you pay attention you will notice how undersized all of these defenders were in comparison to MJ. He never faced off vs a 6' 7, 230 lbs wing like Kawhi who could get physical with him.

Really ?!?

Rodman (80's)
Payton (96)
McMillan (96)
Starks (90's)
Dumars (80's)
Majerle (93)
Russell (97 + 98)
Drexler (92)
Ainge (92 + 93)
Byron Scott (91)
James Worthy (91)

[prolific passer]

If Bron played in the post he would have beat them both. MJ played in the post. Guards didn't play down there. It was tough for them. He could just jump over them.

You mixing up the two version of MJ. Young MJ didn't play in the post as much, which is why they could defend him with smaller players. Second 3-peat MJ was posting up more. Which is why you could put guys like Russell, Wilkins, Cheaney, Smith, Gill, Phills, etc. on him those years.

It was more common during the 2nd threepeat... but smaller guys were often still used. MJ could still blow by guys when he needed to, but he picked his spots a lot more. So there's some truth to what you are saying. I don't think length every really bothered him though, so it was often better to keep using small guys to stop the threat of the drive (even if less likely)

Cousy used to say that smaller guards like Slater Martin gave him problems when they were on him.
Ben Wallace guarded Shaq better than anybody else did during his career and he was 6'7"-6'9" why Shaq was 7'1".
Jordan has said on numerous occasions that 6'3" Dumars guarded him better than anybody else in his career.