Player Rnkings Celtics vs Raptors series

[Feed Your Head]

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

The answer is: The Ringer Podcast Network.

Or the fact that Tatum has a better PIPM/BPM/VORP/RAPM/RAPTOR. Or the fact that he’s put up 27/7/3 on a 62% TS the last 55 games. Or the fact that he puts up those numbers while facing constant double teams and traps. That’s on top of being an elite defensive player.

Nobody will argue whose been the better player the last three years, but at this point it is clear who the better player is.

[Johnny Bball]

There is no way I will believe Kemba Walker can be the 2nd or even 4th best player in this series.

[fianchetto]

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

I think most would say Tatum based on how he played the last 55 games averaging 26/7/3 on 46/44/80 splits but here are the season numbers:

Box score stats:

Lowry: 19.4/5.0/7.5 on 41.6/35.2/85.7 splits

Tatum: 23.4/7.0/3.0 on 45/40.3/81.2 splits

Advanced Stats:

Lowry: 17.7 PER, 7.5 WS, 3.2 BPM, 2.8 VORP, 2.83 PIPM, 5.0 RPM, 3.20 BPM, 4.15 RAPTOR

Tatum: 20.4 PER, 6.9 WS, 4.0 BPM, 3.4 VORP, 4.38 PIPM, 3.60 RPM, 3.90 BPM, 5.24 RAPTOR

But hey, Lowry has higher win shares and a better DPM!

I was basing my post on watching them both regularly, but this post kind of goes above and beyond to show who’s better.

Remember Metallikid, better doesn’t mean more important to the team. Even though that’s also debatable between the two

[SmartWentCrazy]

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

The answer is: The Ringer Podcast Network.

Or the fact that Tatum has a better PIPM/BPM/VORP/RAPM/RAPTOR. Or the fact that he’s put up 27/7/3 on a 60% TS the last 55 games. Or the fact that he puts up those numbers while facing constant double teams and traps.

Nobody will argue whose been the better player the last three years, but at this point it is clear who the better player is.

No way! Thats propaganda! He took mid range jumpers last year and at duke therefore hes basically Tobias Harris. He’s gonna get schemed out, just like Thybulle erased him vs Philly!!1!

[pingpongrac]

I'll take Smart down on the block against Lowry too.

It's obvious from this thread its that if the Celtics win it will have nothing to do with the Celtics. It will be that the Raptors didn't play up to expectations, or were victimized by the officials, or there were unlucky bounces, or lucky bounces that favored the Celtics (you know, like the one that enabled the Raptors to get past the Sixers last year). So get your excuses ready.

Looking forward to this series quite a bit.

If the Celtics want to feed Smart and "exploit a mismatch" on Lowry, Toronto lives with that 100% of the time -- and encourages it. That's exactly what Toronto will want to happen. Force players like Smart, Theis/Kanter and Wanamaker into more offensive responsibility.

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[Feed Your Head]

There is no way I will believe Kemba Walker can be the 2nd or even 4th best player in this series.

Seeing isn’t believing, believing is seeing.

[bongmarley]

Someone please explain the FVV is better than Jaylen Brown take

Its very close

Defence is equal both score the same and Fred is a little better playmaker. The edge goes to Fred because i have seen him come up big in big situations (Final 4, GLeague championship and mvp, NBA championship) and hit massive shots when it matters most.

[SK21209]

Tatum
Lowry
Siakam
Walker
Brown
VanVleet
[Hayward]
Smart

[ATLTimekeeper]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

I doubt that's a strong mismatch that they'd want to exploit. Fred is a very good post defender with excellent hands. Conceding turnaround midrange jumpers in exchange for slowing the Celtic offense is what the Raptors will want to happen. Same deal with Lowry. These guys love being challenged like that. And it's also a match-up that Brown has to win, because it's emasculating when it doesn't work. That's called bait. Stevens is probably too smart for that.

[nizaam]

Do people agree with this list?


https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/nba-playoffs-power-ranking-best-players-celtics-raptors-series?int#slide-2

1 Tatum
2 Walker
3 Siakam
4 Brown
5 Van Vleet
6 Lowry
7 Ibaka
8 Powell
9 Smart
10 OG

Looks about right. Although there will be more tha n one game that Lowry outplays kemba. I wouldnt be surprised if FVV outplays Brown if he goes unconscious from 3 which tends to happen.On paper celtics will win but this series will be decided by which key players get hot or cold at the right time.

[Metallikid]

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

I've kinda been wanting to ask you... do you watch Celtics games? Like, more than just maybe turning them on for a few minutes and then checking to see who won?

I know you watch Raps games and you're deservedly really high on your team and players. But when making a comparison between the Raps and Celts you rarely say things about the Celtics that ring true to me as someone who watches the Celtics. (I watch the Raps a lot too btw, really enjoy them.)

We know your team and players are really good. That doesn't make the other team and their players not good.

Of course I watched some Celtics games this year. Tatum took a big leap after Christmas it seemed, in particular, he increased his shooting volume and usage while retaining good percentages. He's the better scorer you won't get an argument from me there. The defense was solid, but it didn't stick out the way lots of people seem to think it does, and the stats back me up on that. There were, however, several games where Tatum got a key steals or forced turnovers in the last couple minutes and sometimes on the last possession, and that some of these occurrences happened against high-profile wing players, and that seems to have stuck in people's minds.

I could ask you the same question but it wouldn't even mean the same thing unless you were watching just Kyle the entire time. He does so many things like directing the defense, drawing fouls, deflections, taking charges, recognizing and exploiting mismatch, setting up his teammates (Serge Ibaka's career year would never happen without the two-man game he developed with Kyle), leading during timeouts, keeping the team at an even keel, running the offense in general, and of course, his big plays in big moments - and that's without seeing what he does at practice and in the locker room. He truly is an extension of the coaching staff on the floor.

It's not as noticeable as Tatum's threes, or smooth drives to the bucket, or his affinity for clutch jumpers, but put together it does make a bigger impact on winning. Jayson Tatum is a great, great young player. He's undeniably talented and he could very well have a better career than Kyle Lowry. One day soon he will be a better player than Kyle Lowry, but not today, and not this season.

[everdiso]

A simple average of the four major all-around impact stats - PIPM, RPM, BPM, RAPTOR - ranks Tatum 14th at 4.28 and Lowry 18th at 3.80 this year, with Lowry getting a marginally tougher workload. Basically a pick'em this year.

Though some might argue that Lowry has some extra intangibles that are a bit tough to quantify.



Now again, if you are using these advanced stats to support Tatum being numero uno in this series, please be advised that you will need to drop Brown well down the list using these same stats, which have him racking up 0.88 ---- marginally ahead of OG at 0.63, and well behind Norm at 1.66 (and with only a marginally heavier workload than either of them).

[nizaam]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

I doubt that's a strong mismatch that they'd want to exploit. Fred is a very good post defender with excellent hands. Conceding turnaround midrange jumpers in exchange for slowing the Celtic offense is what the Raptors will want to happen. Same deal with Lowry. These guys love being challenged like that. And it's also a match-up that Brown has to win, because it's emasculating when it doesn't work. That's called bait. Stevens is probably too smart for that.

Lowry will guard Brown 100%. FVV takes Kemba on D

[VanWest82]

How Toronto will match up with Boston now that Hayward is out:

FVV on Kemba
Lowry on Smart
Siakam on Brown
OG on Tatum
Ibaka on Thies
Gasol on Kanter

[CoachD]

This reminds me of the Finals last year when NBA radio said that even with KD out... 5 of the 6 best players in the series were on the Warriors with Kawhi being 2nd.

Steph
Kawhi
Klay
Draymond
Cousins
Iguodala

[SmartWentCrazy]

A simple average of the four major all-around impact stats - PIPM, RPM, BPM, RAPTOR - ranks Tatum 14th at 4.28 and Lowry 18th at 3.80 this year, with Lowry getting a marginally tougher workload. Basically a pick'em this year.

Though some might argue that Lowry has some extra intangibles that are a bit tough to quantify.



Now again, if you are using these advanced stats to support Tatum being numero uno in this series, please be advised that you will need to drop Brown well down the list using these same stats, which have him racking up 0.88 ---- marginally ahead of OG at 0.63, and well behind Norm at 1.66 (and with only a marginally heavier workload than either of them).

The problem with advanced stats when using younger players is that they assume the average performance over the period is representative of the players performance. However, when you have a player who is still ascending, the average over the period tends to lag behind the current performance.

I also dont think its wrong to have Siakam and Lowry and others above Brown. I just think its pretty clear that Tatum is better than Lowry.

[pingpongrac]

Someone please explain the FVV is better than Jaylen Brown take

Both players are very good defensively. Brown is more suited to slowing down wings one-on-one while FVV is a menace in getting his hands on the ball (#1 in the league in deflections and #4 in steals) and is more of a team defence star. On the other end, FVV gives more playmaking and is the more dangerous three-point threat while Brown is deadly in transition and can get his own shot off easier in the half-court.

I think it's pretty even, but I can see both sides. Even just looking at their box score stats, it's pretty close.

FVV: 17.6 PPG (55 TS%), 3.8 REB, 6.6 AST, 2.2 TOV
Brown: 20.3 PPG (58 TS%), 6.4 REB, 2.1 AST, 2.2 TOV

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[ForeverTFC]

Jason Tatum
Kyle Lowry
Pascal Siakam
Kemba Walker
Fred VanVleet
Jaylen Brown
Serge Ibaka
Norman Powell
Marcus Smart
OG Anunoby

I'd argue OG v Smart but who really wants to have that argument. This list is the correct take.

[everdiso]

A simple average of the four major all-around impact stats - PIPM, RPM, BPM, RAPTOR - ranks Tatum 14th at 4.28 and Lowry 18th at 3.80 this year, with Lowry getting a marginally tougher workload. Basically a pick'em this year.

Though some might argue that Lowry has some extra intangibles that are a bit tough to quantify.



Now again, if you are using these advanced stats to support Tatum being numero uno in this series, please be advised that you will need to drop Brown well down the list using these same stats, which have him racking up 0.88 ---- marginally ahead of OG at 0.63, and well behind Norm at 1.66 (and with only a marginally heavier workload than either of them).

The problem with advanced stats when using younger players is that they assume the average performance over the period is representative of the players performance. However, when you have a player who is still ascending, the average over the period tends to lag behind the current performance.

I also dont think its wrong to have Siakam and Lowry and others above Brown. I just think its pretty clear that Tatum is better than Lowry.

being young does make for a nice narrative, but young players go through hot and cold streaks too. it's not just a steady ride up. Tatum likely won't keep shooting 48% from 3pt land like he has since the bubble started.

[everdiso]

Jason Tatum
Kyle Lowry
Pascal Siakam
Kemba Walker
Fred VanVleet
Jaylen Brown
Serge Ibaka
Norman Powell
Marcus Smart
OG Anunoby

I'd argue OG v Smart but who really wants to have that argument. This list is the correct take.

I would drop Ibaka to the bottom and put Gasol ahead of him too, but other than that, nice list.