Did Joakim Noah See a Single Minute Against Jokic?

[tsirigoj]

KD is the only guy that is on the same level and KD is a perimeter player and not a big man. How in anyone's right mind is Joel Embiid more skilled than Jokic? I dont think even hardcore 6ers fans would say this.

Wait....I want this in writing.....you think Jokic is more skilled than Anthony Davis AND Giannis?

You are asking skilled, and not just who is better right?

Because in terms of skills, putting Giannis and Jokic in the same sentence is a joke. Davis is closer, but how can you watch Jokic and not think that he is the most skilled big in the league?

Now if you are asking who is better/ has the most impact, it's closer because of defense, but Jokic 100% has an argument as being plain better than Davis.

So you rather have Jokic on your team than AD?

[Raps in 4]

Lets put it this way:
If you strip Jokic and Giannis of ALL their athleticism, yes, Jokic would win short-term, but Giannis would figure out to play with what he has (or doesn't have), and eventually would be the better basketball player (case and point: there have been MANY extremely athletic players in the league that don't have the pedigree Giannis has at 25).

This makes too much sense.

We strip Giannis, a player who relies almost entirely on athleticism, of his athleticism.

We strip Jokic, the most unathletic player in the NBA, of his non-existent athleticism.

And Giannis somehow comes out as the better player.

RealGM ain't too bright. I've been on here since 2001, and some of y'all never cease to amaze.

[Raps in 4]

Wait....I want this in writing.....you think Jokic is more skilled than Anthony Davis AND Giannis?

You are asking skilled, and not just who is better right?

Because in terms of skills, putting Giannis and Jokic in the same sentence is a joke. Davis is closer, but how can you watch Jokic and not think that he is the most skilled big in the league?

Now if you are asking who is better/ has the most impact, it's closer because of defense, but Jokic 100% has an argument as being plain better than Davis.

So you rather have Jokic on your team than AD?

Yes. I always prefer to have the better player on my team.

[tsirigoj]

Wait....I want this in writing.....you think Jokic is more skilled than Anthony Davis AND Giannis?

Yes. You do realize Jokic is a top 10 player in the game while being arguably the least athletic guy in the league. There is a reason he is able to be as good as he is, its because of his elite skill level.

Lol....Jokic is arguagbly the more skilled 7ft player in the history of the game. If he had the athleticism of AD, Giannis, KD, Embiid or even KAT he would be the GOAT.

And if Shaq had Kobe's attitude, he'd be the GOAT.

Hell, if Bill Walton wasn't as injury prone, people argue HE'D be the GOAT.

We can play this game for several players.

Also, AD and Durant are both 7 footers. Yes, Durant is a big man but BECAUSE he is so skilled, he can hang out on the perimeter. Lets not get it twisted and have such a narrow view of what entails a 'big man.'

[tsirigoj]

You are asking skilled, and not just who is better right?

Because in terms of skills, putting Giannis and Jokic in the same sentence is a joke. Davis is closer, but how can you watch Jokic and not think that he is the most skilled big in the league?

Now if you are asking who is better/ has the most impact, it's closer because of defense, but Jokic 100% has an argument as being plain better than Davis.

So you rather have Jokic on your team than AD?

Yes. I always prefer to have the better player on my team.

[tsirigoj]

Lets put it this way:
If you strip Jokic and Giannis of ALL their athleticism, yes, Jokic would win short-term, but Giannis would figure out to play with what he has (or doesn't have), and eventually would be the better basketball player (case and point: there have been MANY extremely athletic players in the league that don't have the pedigree Giannis has at 25).

This makes too much sense.

We strip Giannis, a player who relies almost entirely on athleticism, of his athleticism.

We strip Jokic, the most unathletic player in the NBA, of his non-existent athleticism.

And Giannis somehow comes out as the better player.

RealGM ain't too bright. I've been on here since 2001, and some of y'all never cease to amaze.

For you to be comfortable saying that Jokic would definitely the better player if you strip Giannis of all his athleticism, you'd have to point to another player that has won 2 MVPs and a DPOY strictly on athleticism -- at only 25 years of age.

What that tells me is that Giannis is able to take his God-given gifts and elevate them to a level that no one else really can. That, in and of itself, is an incredible skill. UNLESS you are willing to say that Giannis is SO athletic that we can't point to anyone else in NBA history with no skill and just athleticism, and had such a surplus of athleticism that he could win 2 MVPs and a DPOY -- at 25.

You cannot.

Athleticism in and of itself is not worthy of 2 MVPs and a DPOY -- again, at only 25 years old.

Stop undermining Giannis.

[Drou]

Noah would have at least shown some heart. The Clippers were sleepwalking out there.

At the very least he would have brought some much needed energy

That's very true.

[europrospect93]

I advise you to watch Finals vs. Thunder.

Come back and tell me that LeBron isn't a big man.

How would you define a big man in modern context? Gone are the days that the 'big man' is your PF or Center that hangs under the rim.

Lebron plays on the post WITH EASE and can dominate, and he can guard other bigs well. The big man has evolved into a player that is essentially another guard in the modern NBA that is expected to be able to shoot and pass the ball well.

Butler posted up against Kemba on every opportunity last night, is he a big man?

Just because he uses a mismatch or goes after a weak post defender doesn't make him a big guy. In half court he plays nothing like big man and he never did. Sure, if you put him up against Austin Rivers he will post him up but that doesn't make him a big man.

You're trolling and just made a fool out of me for responding to this didn't you?

Lebron did not take advantage of a matchup on a single play in that series. He literally LIVED on the post. A HUGE chunk of his scoring came from the post, and so did his assists.

Why?

Because LeBron LITERALLY has no weaknesses (maybe aside from the free throw line).

He can be a big. He can be a guard.

I think you (and pretty much everyone on this thread) is defining a 'big man' as their assigned position (i.e. a 4 or a 5), which is kinda ridiculous, ESPECIALLY given the landscape of NBA basketball nowadays.

It's not about what he can be, it's about what he is and how he plays. LeBron is one of the greatest basketball players of all time, if not the GOAT, he has a huge body frame, elite fundamentals and BBIQ off the charts, you could live with him taking any role on any basketball team ever. Positionless, traditional - doesn't matter. But the truth is, he handles the ball and facilitates offense, creates shots for him self and his teammates, attacks face up and guards perimeter players. Yes, you can put him in the post or live with him switching on a big but the question is what he is as a player and where would you categorize him. This shouldn't be a debate on a basketball forum really.

Also, when taking about bigs, no matter what era you're talking about, it's still generally considered to be a player who is at least nominally a center.

[elchengue20]

Yes. You do realize Jokic is a top 10 player in the game while being arguably the least athletic guy in the league. There is a reason he is able to be as good as he is, its because of his elite skill level.

Lol....Jokic is arguagbly the more skilled 7ft player in the history of the game. If he had the athleticism of AD, Giannis, KD, Embiid or even KAT he would be the GOAT.

And if Shaq had Kobe's attitude, he'd be the GOAT.

Hell, if Bill Walton wasn't as injury prone, people argue HE'D be the GOAT.

We can play this game for several players.

Also, AD and Durant are both 7 footers. Yes, Durant is a big man but BECAUSE he is so skilled, he can hang out on the perimeter. Lets not get it twisted and have such a narrow view of what entails a 'big man.'

My point was Jokic is crazy skilled and its ridicilous to say players like Giannis,AD, KAT are more skilled than him. The gap skill wise between them is huge. If he had their athleticisim, it wouldn't be fair. Like others have sayed, his superior skill level is what allows him to be a top NBA player.

Also, Jokic can't hang on the perimeter like KD because he's way more slow and heavy, he doesn't have the agility/mobility requiered to do crossovers, setbacks, etc. It wouldn't make sense for him to develop those kind of moves. It's a physical problem not an coordination/skill problem.

[TheNewEra]

Turned out to be a pointless situation and it’s strange because we signed him as a big for that reason against Jokic types. Harrell was so bad we should of tried anything else but it’s over now

[europrospect93]

Butler posted up against Kemba on every opportunity last night, is he a big man?

Just because he uses a mismatch or goes after a weak post defender doesn't make him a big guy. In half court he plays nothing like big man and he never did. Sure, if you put him up against Austin Rivers he will post him up but that doesn't make him a big man.

You're trolling and just made a fool out of me for responding to this didn't you?

Lebron did not take advantage of a matchup on a single play in that series. He literally LIVED on the post. A HUGE chunk of his scoring came from the post, and so did his assists.

Why?

Because LeBron LITERALLY has no weaknesses (maybe aside from the free throw line).

He can be a big. He can be a guard.

I think you (and pretty much everyone on this thread) is defining a 'big man' as their assigned position (i.e. a 4 or a 5), which is kinda ridiculous, ESPECIALLY given the landscape of NBA basketball nowadays.

It's not about what he can be, it's about what he is and how he plays. LeBron is one of the greatest basketball players of all time, if not the GOAT, he has a huge body frame, elite fundamentals and BBIQ off the charts, you could live with him taking any role on any basketball team ever. Positionless, traditional - doesn't matter. But the truth is, he handles the ball and facilitates offense, creates shots for him self and his teammates, attacks face up and guards perimeter players. Yes, you can put him in the post or live with him switching on a big but the question is what he is as a player and where would you categorize him. This shouldn't be a debate on a basketball forum really.

Also, when taking about bigs, no matter what era you're talking about, it's still generally considered to be a player who is at least nominally a center.(edit: or a traditional power forward, positions are less important in the discussion about this anyways it's more about play style).

[tsirigoj]

Butler posted up against Kemba on every opportunity last night, is he a big man?

Just because he uses a mismatch or goes after a weak post defender doesn't make him a big guy. In half court he plays nothing like big man and he never did. Sure, if you put him up against Austin Rivers he will post him up but that doesn't make him a big man.

You're trolling and just made a fool out of me for responding to this didn't you?

Lebron did not take advantage of a matchup on a single play in that series. He literally LIVED on the post. A HUGE chunk of his scoring came from the post, and so did his assists.

Why?

Because LeBron LITERALLY has no weaknesses (maybe aside from the free throw line).

He can be a big. He can be a guard.

I think you (and pretty much everyone on this thread) is defining a 'big man' as their assigned position (i.e. a 4 or a 5), which is kinda ridiculous, ESPECIALLY given the landscape of NBA basketball nowadays.

It's not about what he can be, it's about what he is and how he plays. LeBron is one of the greatest basketball players of all time, if not the GOAT, he has a huge body frame, elite fundamentals and BBIQ off the charts, you could live with him taking any role on any basketball team ever. Positionless, traditional - doesn't matter. But the truth is, he handles the ball and facilitates offense, creates shots for him self and his teammates, attacks face up and guards perimeter players. Yes, you can put him in the post or live with him switching on a big but the question is what he is as a player and where would you categorize him. This shouldn't be a debate on a basketball forum really.

Also, when taking about bigs, no matter what era you're talking about, it's still generally considered to be a player who is at least nominally a center.

If you are using that extremely narrow definition, then fine, you are right, LeBron is not a big. However, I'll say it again, given how the big man evolved in the NBA (and a lot of that evolution was due to LeBron and then, eventually, GSW), LeBron is, indeed, a big. I remember even hearing people saying during that Thunder series how LeBron is not only the best SF of all time, but now has a case for best PF of all time (because that was, essentially, where he played with Bosh at C).

[europrospect93]

Edit: bad quote, mods delete please

[tsirigoj]

Lol....Jokic is arguagbly the more skilled 7ft player in the history of the game. If he had the athleticism of AD, Giannis, KD, Embiid or even KAT he would be the GOAT.

And if Shaq had Kobe's attitude, he'd be the GOAT.

Hell, if Bill Walton wasn't as injury prone, people argue HE'D be the GOAT.

We can play this game for several players.

Also, AD and Durant are both 7 footers. Yes, Durant is a big man but BECAUSE he is so skilled, he can hang out on the perimeter. Lets not get it twisted and have such a narrow view of what entails a 'big man.'

My point was Jokic is crazy skilled and its ridicilous to say players like Giannis,AD, KAT are more skilled than him. The gap skill wise between them is huge. If he had their athleticisim, it wouldn't be fair. Like others have sayed, his superior skill level is what allows him to be a top NBA player.

Also, Jokic can't hang on the perimeter like KD because he's way more slow and heavy, he doesn't have the agility/mobility requiered to do crossovers, setbacks, etc. It wouldn't make sense for him to develop those kind of moves. It's a physical problem not an coordination/skill problem.

I totally understand what you are saying and agree that Jokic is incredibly skilled, but we always jump to the superlative, and that's just hasty. He is a TOP skilled big in the league, but not the MOST skilled big in the league.

Also, this definition of 'skilled' is completely unfair. To even compare him, you would LITERALLY have to assume another player with no athletic ability, and you can't do that because almost every big man nowadays HAS athletic ability.

With THAT being said, if you want to talk about POST players, or if you want to talk about obscenely large men that move awkwardly, we can do that!

But if you define a big man as any one who plays on the post, serves as a rim protector, and anchors a defense, then yes, there are at least 2 bigs that have a greater skillset than Jokic, and the 2 that definitely come to mind both play for the Lakers.

[tsirigoj]

Also, for the record, I REALLY like Jokic. I have been a fan for YEARS now. But I live in reality, and he is definitely ONE OF the most skilled bigs in the league, but to say he is THE most skilled in the league is way too hasty.

To say that he is better than AD, a consistent MVP and DPOY candidate at just 25 years old, is just plain ignorant.

[Duke4life831]

Yes, easily.

RealGM ain't too bright. I've been on here since 2001, and some of y'all never cease to amaze.

Lets put it this way:
If you strip Jokic and Giannis of ALL their athleticism, yes, Jokic would win short-term, but Giannis would figure out to play with what he has (or doesn't have), and eventually would be the better basketball player (case and point: there have been MANY extremely athletic players in the league that don't have the pedigree Giannis has at 25).

AD is a completely different story. Strip him of all of his athleticism, he likely still beats Jokic (lets not forget that AD was a point guard in high school).

Haha even for a troll post this is bad.

Haha so if you strip Giannis and Jokic of all their athleticism, Giannis is the better player?

Dude you need to at least try like you're making a somewhat reasonable post for people to take you serious.

[tsirigoj]

RealGM ain't too bright. I've been on here since 2001, and some of y'all never cease to amaze.

Lets put it this way:
If you strip Jokic and Giannis of ALL their athleticism, yes, Jokic would win short-term, but Giannis would figure out to play with what he has (or doesn't have), and eventually would be the better basketball player (case and point: there have been MANY extremely athletic players in the league that don't have the pedigree Giannis has at 25).

AD is a completely different story. Strip him of all of his athleticism, he likely still beats Jokic (lets not forget that AD was a point guard in high school).

Haha even for a troll post this is bad.

Haha so if you strip Giannis and Jokic of all their athleticism, Giannis is the better player?

Dude you need to at least try like you're making a somewhat reasonable post for people to take you serious.

But those that say Jokic is a better player than AD should be taken seriously. Got it.

[jus a fan]

Lets put it this way:
If you strip Jokic and Giannis of ALL their athleticism, yes, Jokic would win short-term, but Giannis would figure out to play with what he has (or doesn't have), and eventually would be the better basketball player (case and point: there have been MANY extremely athletic players in the league that don't have the pedigree Giannis has at 25).

AD is a completely different story. Strip him of all of his athleticism, he likely still beats Jokic (lets not forget that AD was a point guard in high school).

Haha even for a troll post this is bad.

Haha so if you strip Giannis and Jokic of all their athleticism, Giannis is the better player?

Dude you need to at least try like you're making a somewhat reasonable post for people to take you serious.

But those that say Jokic is a better player than AD should be taken seriously. Got it.

Saying someone is more skilled than another is not saying they are the better player. but since you need AD to be better than Jokic Ill give you AD is more athletic than Jokic and no body will argue with me. but you notice you the only 1 who is arguing that AD is more skilled than Jokic. Man could you imagine a player who was as athletic as AD and skilled as Jokic now that would be the GOAT no question

[mdenny]

Is it considered to be unorthodox to double team a star player who's best skill (by far) is passing?

I found that to be a very strange strategy. Let's make one of the best passers in the league pass the ball with an open man somewhere.

Did coaches double team Stockton?

[nedleeds]

"The most skilled big man in the game" -- now we are getting confident!

I mean is this even really debatable at the moment?

Skilled? Definitely.

But here are some 'big men' that are more skilled:

-Giannis

MAYBE I'll put Jokic on the same level as KAT, but that may also be pushing it.

Bwahahhhahaaahaa Giannis isn't even the most skilled big on his team. He's the least skilled MVP in 50 years. He can't shoot at all, has no post game and is an average passer and ball handler at best. He's just an 8th grade athlete playing with 5th graders most nights. You don't know what a basketball skill is if you've got him on your list.