Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[Heej]

Man funny how you don't actually include the 2017 or 2018 Warriors.

Yeah, it's almost like I only showed teams they beat. Anyone can lose to a good team.

Should I have shown the Celtics and Pistons teams that Jordan lost too?

No one cares who you lose to, it's about who you beat.

Anyways, here we go:

Teams Jordan lost to

1985 Bucks 6.69
1986 Celtics 9.06
1987 Celtics 6.57
1988 Pistons 5.46
1989 Piston 6.24
1990 Pistons 5.41
1995 Magic 6.44

Teams LeBron lost to

2006 Pistons 6.24
2007 Spurs 8.35
2008 Celtics 9.30
2009 Magic 6.48
2010 Celtics 3.37
2011 Mavericks 4.41
2014 Spurs 8.00
2015 Warriors 10.01
2018 Warriors 5.79

LMFAOOO yes it does matter who you lose to because it clearly demonstrates that one player had to face a far higher level of competition than the other . It's almost as if these hot takes don't make sense without the proper context. Who would've thought


Funny how Jordan only faced one team higher than 8 SRS throughout his entire career and that was when he was a young player vs when he actually played on a contender. Meanwhile almost a third of LeBron's contending years he deals with all time opponents. Funny how that goes huh. It's real easy to dominate trash opponents too vs playing real competition

[ThePersianFreak]

Of course there is. There is also arguments for LeBron being the best.
For me LeBron needs to win 2 more rings as the best player to have a solid argument. having 3 less rings and 1 MVP while being so close peak/prime wise isn't gonna cut it when we're talking about the GOAT. If by the end of his career he has 5 FMVP and 5 MVPs then it'll become about how much you value longivity.

Im a big LeBron fan but im happy with how people rank him amongst all time greats. Almost everybody has him in their top 5 and im cool with that. He is my favourite player of all time, but i accept that he may not be the best player of all time. Heck he can be the best player of all time while not being the GREATEST of all time. It's really not that important to me. Im just happy that i got to watch one of the all time greats play at his best. I watched MJ at his best and i wish i could've watched Kareem/Russell/Wilt at their best.

[IG2]

Uhhh, MJ's biggest argument over LeBron is the fact that he is the better basketball player. The 6 rangz argument is for the ignorant/casual fans.

[dhsilv2]

I'd pretty much bet any amount of money the bulls don't win 8 straight.

In fact, I would argue that had he not retired, even if they continue to win in 1994 and 1995, that they would have been more content to stop sooner. 5 straight titles would be incredible and history in itself and something to part ways on. They had to pull teeth to stay together in 1998. The retirement actually worked out very well for their final ring count because it incentivized 6 (repeat 3peat was the rhetoric). Without that incentive for 6, they likely stop and settle before 6.

I just don't see any circumstance where I would consider Lebron better then Michael - and I was a Bulls hater - Hated Phil Jackson - but I had to respect the game that Michael brought - James also brings a great game - but Michael was still a little higher to me

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

[Lunartic]

I'll take the guy that can hit free throws

[The Rebel]

But it's both...

Nba players may be better but the rule changes have made it damn near impossible to guard anyone effectively today. Literally every player carries on 75% of their dribbles, 12 years ago 3 steps was a clear travel today 4 steps aren't a travel, you cannot touch anybody outside of the paint, it is a joke and a huge reason stats are going way up.

The 3 steps is old as time. As for the rules...it is harder to stop a player. That doesn't mean defenses are better. Just because rules increase scoring doesn't mean the defensive counters aren't better.

3 steps are not old as time, it being legal is 11 years old.

Please explain how defense is better today than it was in the 90s, because those of us who watched the 90s know it was, he'll those of us that watched the 80s know that LeBron has not even surpassed Bird.

[The Rebel]

In fact, I would argue that had he not retired, even if they continue to win in 1994 and 1995, that they would have been more content to stop sooner. 5 straight titles would be incredible and history in itself and something to part ways on. They had to pull teeth to stay together in 1998. The retirement actually worked out very well for their final ring count because it incentivized 6 (repeat 3peat was the rhetoric). Without that incentive for 6, they likely stop and settle before 6.

I just don't see any circumstance where I would consider Lebron better then Michael - and I was a Bulls hater - Hated Phil Jackson - but I had to respect the game that Michael brought - James also brings a great game - but Michael was still a little higher to me

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

I have been playing basketball for 38 years, guess I am the GOAT since the rest doesn't matter.

[-MetA4-]

Just the longevity thing alone is a reasonable enough case to be made right off the bat between the two. It's not hard at all to make the case for lebron here.

Longevity is a secondary qualification. It HAS to be. Especially when one guy (Jordan) took a break in his prime and also walked off after '98 when he easily could have padded his stats for a few more years on whatever team he wanted to. He even could have hopped around on championship favourite teams and collected a few more rings, but he didn't because it was a disservice to what he was about.

Is that what we're arguing now? That an inferior player is the "GOAT" because he did it longer? Its a loser argument which goes against the entire purpose of the "GOAT" label itself.

[VDT]

Lebron is more capable of being the system of his team. Jordan can do that but not to the same degree.

On the other hand LeBron has limitations that are more easily exploited and his struggles when playing off ball means that there are diminishing returns as you increase the talent level of the team.

Jordan has also better intangibles.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Funny how Jordan only faced one team higher than 8 SRS throughout his entire career and that was when he was a young player vs when he actually played on a contender. Meanwhile almost a third of LeBron's contending years he deals with all time opponents. Funny how that goes huh. It's real easy to dominate trash opponents too vs playing real competition

Yes, LeBron played against the best team in the NBA more times than Jordan played against the best team in the NBA.

That's because Jordan can't play against himself. Bulls were #1 in SRS in 5/6 Championship years.

Jordan by SRS

1998 7.24 #1
1997 10.70 #1
1996 11.80 #1
1993 6.19 #4
1992 10.07 #1
1991 8.57 #1

LeBron by SRS

2012 5.72 #4
2013 7.03 #2
2016 5.45 #4
**2020 6.28 #3**

Yes, LeBron lost to better competition.

However, LeBron also lost to lesser competition.

Who beat the better competition? Jordan.

Who beat the lesser competition? LeBron.

You're not helping your argument. There really is no helping it. Jordan was better, his teams were better, and he beat better competition.

The end.

[magicman1978]

Man funny how you don't actually include the 2017 or 2018 Warriors.

Yeah, it's almost like I only showed teams they beat. Anyone can lose to a good team.

Should I have shown the Celtics and Pistons teams that Jordan lost too?

No one cares who you lose to, it's about who you beat.

Anyways, here we go:

Teams Jordan lost to

1985 Bucks 6.69
1986 Celtics 9.06
1987 Celtics 6.57
1988 Pistons 5.46
1989 Piston 6.24
1990 Pistons 5.41
1995 Magic 6.44

Teams LeBron lost to

2006 Pistons 6.24
2007 Spurs 8.35
2008 Celtics 9.30
2009 Magic 6.48
2010 Celtics 3.37
2011 Mavericks 4.41
2014 Spurs 8.00
2015 Warriors 10.01
2018 Warriors 5.79

LMFAOOO yes it does matter who you lose to because it clearly demonstrates that one player had to face a far higher level of competition than the other . It's almost as if these hot takes don't make sense without the proper context. Who would've thought


Funny how Jordan only faced one team higher than 8 SRS throughout his entire career and that was when he was a young player vs when he actually played on a contender. Meanwhile almost a third of LeBron's contending years he deals with all time opponents. Funny how that goes huh. It's real easy to dominate trash opponents too vs playing real competition

Jordan and the Bulls beat a total of 14 5+ SRS teams. I believe LeBron's teams have beaten a total of 5? You can argue he had better teammates/coaching which enabled him to be more successful, but the trash opponent argument doesn't work IMO.

[Heej]

Funny how Jordan only faced one team higher than 8 SRS throughout his entire career and that was when he was a young player vs when he actually played on a contender. Meanwhile almost a third of LeBron's contending years he deals with all time opponents. Funny how that goes huh. It's real easy to dominate trash opponents too vs playing real competition

Yes, LeBron played against the best team in the NBA more times than Jordan played against the best team in the NBA.

That's because Jordan can't play against himself. Bulls were #1 in SRS in 5/6 Championship years.

Bulls by SRS

1998 7.24 #1
1997 10.70 #1
1996 11.80 #1
1993 6.19 #4
1992 10.07 #1
1991 8.57 #1

LeBron by SRS

2012 5.72 #4
2013 7.03 #2
2016 5.45 #4
**2020 6.28 #3**

Yes, LeBron lost to better competition.

However, LeBron also lost to lesser competition.

Who beat the better competition? Jordan.

Who beat the lesser competition? LeBron.

You're not helping your argument. There really is no helping it. Jordan was better, his teams were better, and he beat better competition.

The end.

I wasn't aware of Jordan beating any 70 win teams during his career LMFAO. This is a terrible argument and you know it. The third best team LeBron has faced is still better than the best team MJ played. And this is with the fact that he lucked into the Bulls providing him with one of the best supporting casts a superstar has ever been given from top to bottom when you include coaching and personnel departments.

And again, I'll have to point out that the fact that the Bulls had no competition in terms of SRS just shows how incredibly bad the opponents he faced were. The 97 Jazz would need to go 7 just to beat the Lob City Clippers in a series and that's a team that never made it to the WCF. The competition now is on another level compared to the trash playing for the majority of the 90s. I'm actually amazed that posters on this board try to make the argument that Jordan played better competition, and have to go to the lengths of misinterpreting flawed statistics in order to make that assertion. We've reached a new low here folks, ya hate to see it.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Funny how Jordan only faced one team higher than 8 SRS throughout his entire career and that was when he was a young player vs when he actually played on a contender. Meanwhile almost a third of LeBron's contending years he deals with all time opponents. Funny how that goes huh. It's real easy to dominate trash opponents too vs playing real competition

Yes, LeBron played against the best team in the NBA more times than Jordan played against the best team in the NBA.

That's because Jordan can't play against himself. Bulls were #1 in SRS in 5/6 Championship years.

Bulls by SRS

1998 7.24 #1
1997 10.70 #1
1996 11.80 #1
1993 6.19 #4
1992 10.07 #1
1991 8.57 #1

LeBron by SRS

2012 5.72 #4
2013 7.03 #2
2016 5.45 #4
**2020 6.28 #3**

Yes, LeBron lost to better competition.

However, LeBron also lost to lesser competition.

Who beat the better competition? Jordan.

Who beat the lesser competition? LeBron.

You're not helping your argument. There really is no helping it. Jordan was better, his teams were better, and he beat better competition.

The end.

I wasn't aware of Jordan beating any 70 win teams during his career LMFAO.

Jordan was the 70 win team. Get that through your head.

There isn't much to debate here. The facts lay out the story perfectly. You just want to revise history.

Good luck with that.

[Quattro]

Lebron totally dominates MJ in tampering to get stars on his team to give him the help he needs to go 3-6 in the nba finals. It’s really no contest.

[Heej]

Yes, LeBron played against the best team in the NBA more times than Jordan played against the best team in the NBA.

That's because Jordan can't play against himself. Bulls were #1 in SRS in 5/6 Championship years.

Bulls by SRS

1998 7.24 #1
1997 10.70 #1
1996 11.80 #1
1993 6.19 #4
1992 10.07 #1
1991 8.57 #1

LeBron by SRS

2012 5.72 #4
2013 7.03 #2
2016 5.45 #4
**2020 6.28 #3**

Yes, LeBron lost to better competition.

However, LeBron also lost to lesser competition.

Who beat the better competition? Jordan.

Who beat the lesser competition? LeBron.

You're not helping your argument. There really is no helping it. Jordan was better, his teams were better, and he beat better competition.

The end.

I wasn't aware of Jordan beating any 70 win teams during his career LMFAO.

Jordan was the 70 win team. Get that through your head.

I understand that, what you need to get through your head is that it's an indictment on the rest of the league that no one else is even close. Trash organizations Fielding trash teams coached by inferior coaches. Every single Jordan finals opponent would get smoked in the West today and probably wouldn't even come out of the East of the last decade.

[oaktownwarriors87]

I wasn't aware of Jordan beating any 70 win teams during his career LMFAO.

Jordan was the 70 win team. Get that through your head.

I understand that, what you need to get through your head is that it's an indictment on the rest of the league that no one else is even close. Trash organizations Fielding trash teams coached by inferior coaches. Every single Jordan finals opponent would get smoked in the West today and probably wouldn't even come out of the East of the last decade.

Again, go back to my first post. It already proved this idiotic take wrong.



Here you go:


1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)

**2020 (2.59 or 5.83)/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865-2.675 average)**

The 2017 Warriors really bring up the Cavs average and the 1997 Miami heat drag down the Bulls average.

The numbers really confirm what everyone really knows: The East was weak post Jordan era, and the West kind of sucked in 2020.

Jordan beat 13 teams with an SRS of 5 or higher. LeBron beat 3. If the Lakers beat Boston it will be his 4th in a Championship year.

Again, just based on conference opponents average SRS:

1992 4.28
1996 3.83
1991 3.53
1993 3.03
2016 2.67
2012 2.41
1997 1.69
**2020 1.62**
1998 0.75
2013 0.51

[Jaqua92]

Watch this entire series of MJ's skills being broken down by an NBA skills coach and try to convince yourself he wasn't better at the game of basketball.

Lebron is looking like a title favorite. The inferiority complex of the fanbase is preparing itself for more comparisons to Jordan, which will result in Lebron not being the consensus goat.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[loserX]

Lebron totally dominates MJ in tampering to get stars on his team to give him the help he needs to go 3-6 in the nba finals. It’s really no contest.

It's spectacular that in a thread asking whether Jordan was a better basketball player how few arguments are even attempted that he was a better basketball player. A great deal of them are just this argle-bargle again.

Though the OP is slanted to the point of silliness, it's a reasonable question. Feel free to put the taking points away and debate.

[Jabroni Lames]

The truth is that MJ won championships against creampuff teams. MJ Bulls would have no chance vs. the Durant Warriors. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

[Duke4life831]

Ill just say this, when you use John Stockton as an example to take a shot at MJ for the quality of players he played against. It's either a troll thread or the OP lacks legitimate historic basketball knowledge. Playing multiple finals against a guy like John Stockton isnt a negative on anyone's career.

I cant take anyone's post serious if one of their examples of someone having an easy shot to a title because they played against John freaking Stockton haha.