What has Jordan achieved without Pippen?

[Jcity08]

You say this like it was bad for the Pelicans. Just look at European Soccer, teams do whatever they can to sell players before their contract expires so that a team is not left empty handed when the star inevitably leaves.

And his contract wasn't expiring, he'd still be under contract this season if didnt force his way out a season prior.

If he wanted that flexibility he should have signed a shorter contract instead of acting like a drama queen and forcing the organization to move him if they wanted to salvage the wreckage of his contract.

Even in Euro Soccer, players that act like drama queens and try to force their club to move them get rightfully criticized.

Why? He has every right to leverage his body and contract however he likes. He could have signed a shorter contract, but even if he openly stated, I'll leave in 2 or 3 years, the Pels would prefer to sign him as long as possible.

How do I get this through to you. Having more time on the contract is more of an asset to the Pelicans than to AD. Compare the Nuggets vs Cavs in the aftermath of the Melo trade/ Lebron's decision.

He has a right to leverage his body and contract however he likes but he also doesn't have absolute immunity from being criticized or judged for breaking out of his contract with the team while its still active.

The way AD handled his departure from THE Pels should not be emulated, announcing he wanted to get traded publicly, which got him fined by the league by the way, and then moping over the fact that he didn't get dealt at the trade deadline.

I dont value that, I respect someone that can honor the contract they sign. Doesn't matter who the it is. I know it will be brought up, Kawhi helped get my team a championship, that doesn't prevent me from acknowledging the San Antonio fans frustration with his exit, nor am I mad about him leaving the Raptors when his contract was up.

I dont value the way AD handled his departure, nothing can convince me it was handle well, don't care if he has the right to leverage his contract and body.

[Danny11]

And his contract wasn't expiring, he'd still be under contract this season if didnt force his way out a season prior.

If he wanted that flexibility he should have signed a shorter contract instead of acting like a drama queen and forcing the organization to move him if they wanted to salvage the wreckage of his contract.

Even in Euro Soccer, players that act like drama queens and try to force their club to move them get rightfully criticized.

Why? He has every right to leverage his body and contract however he likes. He could have signed a shorter contract, but even if he openly stated, I'll leave in 2 or 3 years, the Pels would prefer to sign him as long as possible.

How do I get this through to you. Having more time on the contract is more of an asset to the Pelicans than to AD. Compare the Nuggets vs Cavs in the aftermath of the Melo trade/ Lebron's decision.

He has a right to leverage his body and contract however he likes but he also doesn't have absolute immunity from being criticized or judged for breaking out of his contract with the team while its still active.

The way AD handled his departure from THE Pels should not be emulated, announcing he wanted to get traded publicly, which got him fined by the league by the way, and then moping over the fact that he didn't get dealt at the trade deadline.

I dont value that, I respect someone that can honor the contract they sign. Doesn't matter who the it is. I know it will be brought up, Kawhi helped get my team a championship, that doesn't prevent me from acknowledging the San Antonio fans frustration with his exit, nor am I mad about him leaving the Raptors when his contract was up.

I dont value the way AD handled his departure, nothing can convince me it was handle well, don't care if he has the right to leverage his contract and body.

No doubt. Everyone is subject to criticism. He didn't break his contract. I'm sure he told the Pelicans that he wanted to be traded privately, and when it didn't happen, he went public. Lesson learned for the Pelicans. AD had more leverage than they did. Now they have Zion, maybe they should offer him only a 2 year extension so that he can walk away from the team instead of forcing a trade when he inevitably wants to leave. Let's see how that works. Spoiler: it won't.

This is happening because of the CBA, which is not in the superstars best interest. If there was no salary cap, or at least no max contract, no rookie scale, etc. teams would be forced to pay guys like AD more. This is a product of the same system that makes the organizations millions of dollars. There's no reason to feel bad for them.

[magicman1978]

Some playoff series from Scottie - if he were LeBron's teammate, you'd probably be talking about how terrible of a player he was offensively and how LeBron had no help:

13.7pts, 2.3assts, 4tos, 80ortg, 49%TS
18.3pts, 5.5assts, 3.2tos, 102ortg, 45%TS
15.7pts, 4.8assts, 2.8tos, 104ortg, 50%TS
16.6pts, 5.3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 46%TS
16.7pts, 3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 50%TS
15.7pts, 5.3assts, 1.9tos, 105ortg, 42%TS
15.6pts, 5.2assts, 2.2tos, 100ortg, 41%TS
10pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 96ortg, 49%TS
9.4pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 85ortg, 49%TS
9.7pts, 3assts, 1.5tos, 94ortg, 45%TS
16.6pts, 3.7assts, 3tos, 100ortg, 52%TS
21.2pts, 7.7assts, 4.3tos, 97ortg, 46%TS (against Suns in 93)

Pippen's career is littered with series in which he struggled to score or even be an adequate playmaker. I'm not saying this to degrade him, he's a top 40 player all time and probably the best perimeter defender ever - but he wasn't some perfect fit to Jordan that people make him out to be (i.e., there are other players Jordan could have won championships with).

What about the defense, which was the biggest strength of Pippen?

Pippen was huge in defense and the Bulls always had one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA during their dynasty with Grant or Rodman, which allowed Jordan to only focus on what he did best which was scoring.

Is that not covered by me saying he's likely the greatest perimeter defender ever?

But let's follow the logic of this (troll) thread:

The OP believes Jordan would not have won anything without Pippen (Is that a statement you agree with? If so, we can stop the discussion here). My point is - although Pippen was great, he wasn't some perfect sidekick that was irreplaceable. Jordan wasn't a one dimensional player - he became one of the best off ball players to complement Pippen. Pip on the other hand provided very little spacing offensively for Jordan. Defensively - yes, he was amazing. You replace him with another all-star from the 90s and the Bulls can still win (probably not 6, but still multiple). No one wins without help. Not even LeBron.

LeBron stans would definitely be all over Pippen for his many poor offensive performances. Look at how many of them are calling out Caruso or Green for their poor performances and completely ignoring the defensive side of the equation. Most can't even see how much of a defensive force Davis has been and think LeBron is just as good defensively.

[Danny11]

Some playoff series from Scottie - if he were LeBron's teammate, you'd probably be talking about how terrible of a player he was offensively and how LeBron had no help:

13.7pts, 2.3assts, 4tos, 80ortg, 49%TS
18.3pts, 5.5assts, 3.2tos, 102ortg, 45%TS
15.7pts, 4.8assts, 2.8tos, 104ortg, 50%TS
16.6pts, 5.3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 46%TS
16.7pts, 3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 50%TS
15.7pts, 5.3assts, 1.9tos, 105ortg, 42%TS
15.6pts, 5.2assts, 2.2tos, 100ortg, 41%TS
10pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 96ortg, 49%TS
9.4pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 85ortg, 49%TS
9.7pts, 3assts, 1.5tos, 94ortg, 45%TS
16.6pts, 3.7assts, 3tos, 100ortg, 52%TS
21.2pts, 7.7assts, 4.3tos, 97ortg, 46%TS (against Suns in 93)

Pippen's career is littered with series in which he struggled to score or even be an adequate playmaker. I'm not saying this to degrade him, he's a top 40 player all time and probably the best perimeter defender ever - but he wasn't some perfect fit to Jordan that people make him out to be (i.e., there are other players Jordan could have won championships with).

What about the defense, which was the biggest strength of Pippen?

Pippen was huge in defense and the Bulls always had one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA during their dynasty with Grant or Rodman, which allowed Jordan to only focus on what he did best which was scoring.

Is that not covered by me saying he's likely the greatest perimeter defender ever?

But let's follow the logic of this (troll) thread:

The OP believes Jordan would not have won anything without Pippen (Is that a statement you agree with? If so, we can stop the discussion here). My point is - although Pippen was great, he wasn't some perfect sidekick that was irreplaceable. Jordan wasn't a one dimensional player - he became one of the best off ball players to complement Pippen. Pip on the other hand provided very little spacing offensively for Jordan. Defensively - yes, he was amazing. You replace him with another all-star from the 90s and the Bulls can still win (probably not 6, but still multiple). No one wins without help. Not even LeBron.

LeBron stans would definitely be all over Pippen for his many poor offensive performances. Look at how many of them are calling out Caruso or Green for their poor performances and completely ignoring the defensive side of the equation. Most can't even see how much of a defensive force Davis has been and think LeBron is just as good defensively.

Any argument which reduces winning a championship to one or two players is either made in bad faith or incredibly naive. /thread

[Heej]

Pippen was the backbone of their defense and main facilitator/playcaller on offense. You could probably win a similar number of rings if you replaced him with someone like Reggie Miller, but that speaks more to how damn stacked the Bulls were considering their first, second, third, and fourth options were always better than their opponents respective first, second, third and fourth options. They had guys who were overqualified for the roles they played, not overmatched guys like Tyler Herro or something

[Woodsanity]

Pippen= Glorified Shawn Marion
Rodman= Ben Wallace on Roids

Stop trying to downplay the greatest of all time. Its not going to change the narrative. Lebron is no way near Jordan's level. However, in my opinion, LBJ is most likely the greatest athlete of this generation and #2 ALL TIME B-Ball player

Says stop downplaying the greatest of all time while downplaying the hell out of Pippen. Well in Rodman's case Ben Wallace on roids if a ridiculous compliment. Do you realize how good Ben Wallace on roids is? I think you don't value defense at all here.

[Jcity08]

Why? He has every right to leverage his body and contract however he likes. He could have signed a shorter contract, but even if he openly stated, I'll leave in 2 or 3 years, the Pels would prefer to sign him as long as possible.

How do I get this through to you. Having more time on the contract is more of an asset to the Pelicans than to AD. Compare the Nuggets vs Cavs in the aftermath of the Melo trade/ Lebron's decision.

He has a right to leverage his body and contract however he likes but he also doesn't have absolute immunity from being criticized or judged for breaking out of his contract with the team while its still active.

The way AD handled his departure from THE Pels should not be emulated, announcing he wanted to get traded publicly, which got him fined by the league by the way, and then moping over the fact that he didn't get dealt at the trade deadline.

I dont value that, I respect someone that can honor the contract they sign. Doesn't matter who the it is. I know it will be brought up, Kawhi helped get my team a championship, that doesn't prevent me from acknowledging the San Antonio fans frustration with his exit, nor am I mad about him leaving the Raptors when his contract was up.

I dont value the way AD handled his departure, nothing can convince me it was handle well, don't care if he has the right to leverage his contract and body.

No doubt. Everyone is subject to criticism. He didn't break his contract. I'm sure he told the Pelicans that he wanted to be traded privately, and when it didn't happen, he went public. Lesson learned for the Pelicans. AD had more leverage than they did. Now they have Zion, maybe they should offer him only a 2 year extension so that he can walk away from the team instead of forcing a trade when he inevitably wants to leave. Let's see how that works. Spoiler: it won't.

This is happening because of the CBA, which is not in the superstars best interest. If there was no salary cap, or at least no max contract, no rookie scale, etc. teams would be forced to pay guys like AD more. This is a product of the same system that makes the organizations millions of dollars. There's no reason to feel bad for them.

Him coming out publicly is breaking contract. Its not up to the Pels to baby Zion into figuring out what contract is best for his long term interests, its up to Zion to decide if he'd rather sign an extension that works for him that doesn't result in him turning into a drama queen, diva in order to weasel out of the contract he signed.

Its up to the Pels to decide what they feel is best for their interests after knowing the terms set by the player, if they feel its worth it to let him potentially walk and sign him to that two year extension knowing that, thats on them.

The CBA rules have very little to do with ADs handling of his contract, thats on him. I dont need to speculate what he did or did not say behind close doors, he acted like a child on his way out and no Pels fan deserved that. The time between him signing with Klutch sports and wanting to be traded to L.A. to team up with Lebron is all the info I need to know.

[camby23]

Some playoff series from Scottie - if he were LeBron's teammate, you'd probably be talking about how terrible of a player he was offensively and how LeBron had no help:

13.7pts, 2.3assts, 4tos, 80ortg, 49%TS
18.3pts, 5.5assts, 3.2tos, 102ortg, 45%TS
15.7pts, 4.8assts, 2.8tos, 104ortg, 50%TS
16.6pts, 5.3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 46%TS
16.7pts, 3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 50%TS
15.7pts, 5.3assts, 1.9tos, 105ortg, 42%TS
15.6pts, 5.2assts, 2.2tos, 100ortg, 41%TS
10pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 96ortg, 49%TS
9.4pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 85ortg, 49%TS
9.7pts, 3assts, 1.5tos, 94ortg, 45%TS
16.6pts, 3.7assts, 3tos, 100ortg, 52%TS
21.2pts, 7.7assts, 4.3tos, 97ortg, 46%TS (against Suns in 93)

Pippen's career is littered with series in which he struggled to score or even be an adequate playmaker. I'm not saying this to degrade him, he's a top 40 player all time and probably the best perimeter defender ever - but he wasn't some perfect fit to Jordan that people make him out to be (i.e., there are other players Jordan could have won championships with).

This thread should've ended here. Plus Pippen is a notorious poor playoff performer injuries or not.

That's why I ranked MJ's 1998 season as one of his best. Pip tried not to play the whole season almost sabotaging the team and left a 35 year old Jordan carrying that Bulls team. Then Pip got injured in the playoffs.

Ok so from all of the 90's superstars, who had the better Robin than Jordan? Ewing? (Oakley/Starks), Barkley? (K.Johnson), Hakeem? (Vernon Maxwell) Robinson? (Sean Elliot) Reggie? (Rik Smits) Drexler? (Terry Porter)

the answer is: nobody

We are not talking about NBA post 2005 where the talent level is much bigger compared to 90's. Where your second option could be players like: Steph Curry, Pau Gasol, Westbrook, D-Wade, Chris Paul, Ray Allen or Paul George.

[kazyv]

Okay... But tell me again, how many times did Jordan make it out of the first round without Pippen?

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using RealGM mobile app

To answer your absurdly reductionist question: zero times in three seasons.

To provide a bit more context to the answer to that absurdly reductionist question:

23 year-old Jordan in his third season put 35.7/7.0/6.0/2.0/2.3 on 40/40/90 against a team that lost in 6 in the NBA Finals.

22 year-old Jordan in his second season put 43.7/6.3/5.7/2.3/1.3 on 51/100/87 against a team that coasted to 67 wins and won the NBA championship.

21 year-old Jordan in his rookie season put 29.3/5.8/8.5/2.8/1.0 on 44/13/83 against the first or second-ranked defense in the league while being guarded primarily by a player who has just won back-to-back DPoY's.

The ten games you've chosen to tear Jordan down only do the opposite: they actually served as a teeny tiny piece of the immense body of work supporting his case as Greatest of All-Time. Thanks for calling everyone's attention to those games!

Cool story, but MJ still took the L.

This is the same thing LeBron gets criticized for. when he puts up monster numbers and lose in the finals he gets villified.

But MJ putting up monster numbers and getting swept in the first round is glorified.

OP had valid points and they're just simple facts.
MJ did nothing without Pip.
Pip made it past first round at least without MJ.

Feel bad for Pippen. Since everyone seem to forget how good he is.
MJ was playing with top 5 player in the game. And at any given game bulls had the 2 best players on the court or at least 2 of the 3 best players. But everyone always make it seem like MJ took gardeners and plumbers to finals.

when has lebron james ever put up monster numbers without good teammates? lebron isn't even close to mj, wtf are you talking about? lebron james in his prime was reduced to chucking it up like allen iverson. don't ever mention him in the comparison with jordan, they are NOT on the same level

[ssang]

Pippen was the backbone of their defense and main facilitator/playcaller on offense. You could probably win a similar number of rings if you replaced him with someone like Reggie Miller, but that speaks more to how damn stacked the Bulls were considering their first, second, third, and fourth options were always better than their opponents respective first, second, third and fourth options. They had guys who were overqualified for the roles they played, not overmatched guys like Tyler Herro or something

You have no idea what you are talking about. Let me ask you a question. How old are you?

The biggest difference between the Chicago Bulls and everyone else back then, and the painfully obvious and unmistakably primary reason for said Chicago Bulls overwhelming success was, that to any and all within the NBA, as well as to any and all objective fans and casual viewers alike — the Chicago Bulls best player was the greatest, most spectacular, phenomenally talented basketball player anyone had ever feasted their eyes upon...and was a metric f**k-ton better than their opponents’ respective first, and second, and third, and fourth options.

[Homer38]

To answer your absurdly reductionist question: zero times in three seasons.

To provide a bit more context to the answer to that absurdly reductionist question:

23 year-old Jordan in his third season put 35.7/7.0/6.0/2.0/2.3 on 40/40/90 against a team that lost in 6 in the NBA Finals.

22 year-old Jordan in his second season put 43.7/6.3/5.7/2.3/1.3 on 51/100/87 against a team that coasted to 67 wins and won the NBA championship.

21 year-old Jordan in his rookie season put 29.3/5.8/8.5/2.8/1.0 on 44/13/83 against the first or second-ranked defense in the league while being guarded primarily by a player who has just won back-to-back DPoY's.

The ten games you've chosen to tear Jordan down only do the opposite: they actually served as a teeny tiny piece of the immense body of work supporting his case as Greatest of All-Time. Thanks for calling everyone's attention to those games!

Cool story, but MJ still took the L.

This is the same thing LeBron gets criticized for. when he puts up monster numbers and lose in the finals he gets villified.

But MJ putting up monster numbers and getting swept in the first round is glorified.

OP had valid points and they're just simple facts.
MJ did nothing without Pip.
Pip made it past first round at least without MJ.

Feel bad for Pippen. Since everyone seem to forget how good he is.
MJ was playing with top 5 player in the game. And at any given game bulls had the 2 best players on the court or at least 2 of the 3 best players. But everyone always make it seem like MJ took gardeners and plumbers to finals.

when has lebron james ever put up monster numbers without good teammates? lebron isn't even close to mj, wtf are you talking about? lebron james in his prime was reduced to chucking it up like allen iverson. don't ever mention him in the comparison with jordan, they are NOT on the same level

[JH5]

What has LeBron done without 2 other All Stars or a top 5 teammate?

Were punishing MJ from not jumping team to team?

He won the title in 2016 with no others all stars in his team(The cavs won against a team with 3 players in the all-NBA team)...He also won 66 and 61 wins in 2009 and 2010 with Mo Williams as the second best players of the cavs.He also make the finals in 2007 at 22 years old with a very average roster at best.

But this thread was on Davis,not LBJ.

How many times are you going to repeat this nonsense?

Kyrie and Love were both All Stars and would have made the team if they didn't get injured.

By that logic, Pippen didn't make the all Star team in 98 or 91 so MJ has two Championships without another All Star.

Those Cavs team didn't win **** so irrelevant.

Lol right?

Cavs just decided to apparently blow the number one overall pick by trading it for a hack in Kevin Love? These hot takes are getting better by the minute.

[JH5]

Jordan never forced his way out of his team before his contract ended just to specifically team up with another Star, a player who is the greatest player of our time.

AD is the new KD except KD didn't force his way out of OKC before his contract was up but their is questions whether he'll even get a FMVP since Lebron is so dominant.

You say this like it was bad for the Pelicans. Just look at European Soccer, teams do whatever they can to sell players before their contract expires so that a team is not left empty handed when the star inevitably leaves.

Dude straight up quit on his team and refused to even play, while under contract with a fake injuries.

[Homer38]

How many times are you going to repeat this nonsense?

Kyrie and Love were both All Stars and would have made the team if they didn't get injured.

By that logic, Pippen didn't make the all Star team in 98 or 91 so MJ has two Championships without another All Star.

Those Cavs team didn't win **** so irrelevant.

Kyrie had 19 PPG in the 2016 regular season, so if he would have made the all-star game, it would have been by popularity, since 19 PPG is not much for a player who was struggling in defense....No doubt he had been amazing in the finals, but that wasn't the case for Love, the warriors were a horrible matchup for him too.Thompson had been much better that Love in this finals.

Winning 66 and 61 games in the NBA is tough to do (I mean the nets has never come close to winning 60 games in a season), it's a great accomplishment by LBJ to do that with Mo Williams as the second best players ... Big difference between winning over 60 games and having a losing record, even if you don't win the title ... I don't think you can blame LBJ for their loss in 2009

[Heej]

Pippen was the backbone of their defense and main facilitator/playcaller on offense. You could probably win a similar number of rings if you replaced him with someone like Reggie Miller, but that speaks more to how damn stacked the Bulls were considering their first, second, third, and fourth options were always better than their opponents respective first, second, third and fourth options. They had guys who were overqualified for the roles they played, not overmatched guys like Tyler Herro or something

You have no idea what you are talking about. Let me ask you a question. How old are you?

The biggest difference between the Chicago Bulls and everyone else back then, and the painfully obvious and unmistakably primary reason for said Chicago Bulls overwhelming success was, that to any and all within the NBA, as well as to any and all objective fans and casual viewers alike — the Chicago Bulls best player was the greatest, most spectacular, phenomenally talented basketball player anyone had ever feasted their eyes upon...and was a metric f**k-ton better than their opponents’ respective first, and second, and third, and fourth options.

Ok buddy. They won 54 games when MJ left and also had the best coach in the league the entire time. They were stacked. You're cursing me out because you're triggered, and you're triggered because you know I hit a sore spot. MJ had the most stacked team and just cuz he was better than guys 2,3, and 4 it doesn't change the fact that he also somehow had the best supporting cast in the league too.

[magicman1978]

Some playoff series from Scottie - if he were LeBron's teammate, you'd probably be talking about how terrible of a player he was offensively and how LeBron had no help:

13.7pts, 2.3assts, 4tos, 80ortg, 49%TS
18.3pts, 5.5assts, 3.2tos, 102ortg, 45%TS
15.7pts, 4.8assts, 2.8tos, 104ortg, 50%TS
16.6pts, 5.3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 46%TS
16.7pts, 3assts, 3tos, 102ortg, 50%TS
15.7pts, 5.3assts, 1.9tos, 105ortg, 42%TS
15.6pts, 5.2assts, 2.2tos, 100ortg, 41%TS
10pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 96ortg, 49%TS
9.4pts, 2.4assts, 2.6tos, 85ortg, 49%TS
9.7pts, 3assts, 1.5tos, 94ortg, 45%TS
16.6pts, 3.7assts, 3tos, 100ortg, 52%TS
21.2pts, 7.7assts, 4.3tos, 97ortg, 46%TS (against Suns in 93)

Pippen's career is littered with series in which he struggled to score or even be an adequate playmaker. I'm not saying this to degrade him, he's a top 40 player all time and probably the best perimeter defender ever - but he wasn't some perfect fit to Jordan that people make him out to be (i.e., there are other players Jordan could have won championships with).

This thread should've ended here. Plus Pippen is a notorious poor playoff performer injuries or not.

That's why I ranked MJ's 1998 season as one of his best. Pip tried not to play the whole season almost sabotaging the team and left a 35 year old Jordan carrying that Bulls team. Then Pip got injured in the playoffs.

Ok so from all of the 90's superstars, who had the better Robin than Jordan? Ewing? (Oakley/Starks), Barkley? (K.Johnson), Hakeem? (Vernon Maxwell) Robinson? (Sean Elliot) Reggie? (Rik Smits) Drexler? (Terry Porter)

the answer is: nobody

We are not talking about NBA post 2005 where the talent level is much bigger compared to 90's. Where your second option could be players like: Steph Curry, Pau Gasol, Westbrook, D-Wade, Chris Paul, Ray Allen or Paul George.

Jordan was lucky to have Pippen for 6 championship runs - but we often make a mistake of conflating a players career with individual seasons and playoff performances. The point that was being made is that Pippen also laid some duds - he wasn't always the better 2nd best player on the floor (but he also was sometimes better than the other teams best player) - which is not how we should measure things anyways - if you look back through history, I'm willing to wager the championship team almost always had the better second best player.

For example, does LeBron win in 2016 if his second best player doesn't outperform the other team's best player? This is the year that many cite as why LeBron is the GOAT. But in every single series, his second best player out performed the opposing teams best player.

Just imagine how people would view Pip if he was putting up those numbers as the primary guy on his team (when he was putting on some stinkers not even being the focus of most of the defensive attention).

[bronxknicksfan1]

Okay... But tell me again, how many times did Jordan make it out of the first round without Pippen?

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using RealGM mobile app

To answer your absurdly reductionist question: zero times in three seasons.

To provide a bit more context to the answer to that absurdly reductionist question:

23 year-old Jordan in his third season put 35.7/7.0/6.0/2.0/2.3 on 40/40/90 against a team that lost in 6 in the NBA Finals.

22 year-old Jordan in his second season put 43.7/6.3/5.7/2.3/1.3 on 51/100/87 against a team that coasted to 67 wins and won the NBA championship.

21 year-old Jordan in his rookie season put 29.3/5.8/8.5/2.8/1.0 on 44/13/83 against the first or second-ranked defense in the league while being guarded primarily by a player who has just won back-to-back DPoY's.

The ten games you've chosen to tear Jordan down only do the opposite: they actually served as a teeny tiny piece of the immense body of work supporting his case as Greatest of All-Time. Thanks for calling everyone's attention to those games!

Cool story, but MJ still took the L.

This is the same thing LeBron gets criticized for. when he puts up monster numbers and lose in the finals he gets villified.

But MJ putting up monster numbers and getting swept in the first round is glorified.

OP had valid points and they're just simple facts.
MJ did nothing without Pip.
Pip made it past first round at least without MJ.

Feel bad for Pippen. Since everyone seem to forget how good he is.
MJ was playing with top 5 player in the game. And at any given game bulls had the 2 best players on the court or at least 2 of the 3 best players. But everyone always make it seem like MJ took gardeners and plumbers to finals.

At what point was Scottie Pippen ever a top 5 player in the league?

MJ, Magic, Barkley, D-Rob, Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Malone... this is just naming a few. Pippen had an argument for top 10-15 for sure. But he was never top 5. No need to prop him up to make an argument.

[twyzted]

Pippen was the backbone of their defense and main facilitator/playcaller on offense. You could probably win a similar number of rings if you replaced him with someone like Reggie Miller, but that speaks more to how damn stacked the Bulls were considering their first, second, third, and fourth options were always better than their opponents respective first, second, third and fourth options. They had guys who were overqualified for the roles they played, not overmatched guys like Tyler Herro or something

Really

90/91
Magic 21 ppg 8 rpg 13 apg
Worthy 21 ppg 4 rpg 4 apg
Perkins 18 ppg 8 rpg
Scott 13 ppg
Divac 13 ppg 7 rpg
Vs
Pippen 21 ppg 9 rpg 7 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Grant 15 ppg 8 rpg 2 apg 2 spg 1bpg
Paxson 13 ppg 2 rpg 3 apg 1 spg 0 bpg

91/92
Drexler 26 ppg 7 rpg 7 apg
Porter 21 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg
Kersey 16 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg
Duckworth 12 ppg 6 rpg
Ainge, cliff robinson, buck williams 10 ppg
Vs
Pippen 20 ppg 8 apg 8 rpg 2 spg 1 bpg
Grant 9 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg 1 spg 2 bpg
Paxson 10 ppg 1 rpg 3 apg 1 spg

92/93
Barkley 27 ppg 14 rpg 4 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Kevin johnson 18 ppg 3 rpg 8 apg
Majerle 15 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg 1 spg 1 bpg
Richard dumas 11 ppg
Vs
Pippen 21 ppg 9 rpg 8 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Bj 14 ppg 2 rpg 5 apg 1 spg
Grant 11 ppg 10 rpg 2 apg 2 spg 2 bpg
Last 2 games grant scored 2 point combined with 7 rpg

95/96
Kemp 21 ppg 10 rpg 2 apg 1 spg 2 bpg
Payton 21 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg 2 spg
Schrempf 16 ppg 5 rpg 3 apg
Perkins 12 ppg 4 rpg 2 apg
Hawkins 12 ppg 3 rpg 3 apg
Vs
Pippen 16 ppg 7 rpg 5 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Kukoc 13 ppg 5 rpg 4 apg 1 spg
Longley 12 ppg 4 rpg 2 apg 2 bpg
Rodman 8 ppg 15 rpg 3 apg

96/97
Malone 26 ppg 11 rpg 3 apg 1 spg&bpg
Stockton 16 ppg 4 rpg 10 apg 2 spg
Hornacek 14 ppg 4 rpg 4 apg
Russell 12 ppg 5 rpg
Vs
Pippen 20 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg 2 spg 2 bpg
Kukoc 8 ppg 3 rpg 3 apg
Bison dele 7 ppg
Rodman 2 ppg 8 rpg

97/98
Malone 26 ppg 11 rpg
Stockton 11 ppg 8 apg
Hornacek and russel 11 ppg
Vs
Pippen 16 ppg 7 rpg 5 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Kukoc 15 ppg 5 rpg 3 apg
Rodman 3 ppg 8 rpg
Harper 5 ppg
Kerr 4 ppg

So no 3rd 4th or 5 th bulls player never out played 3rd 4th or 5th best bulls player except for 98.
Payton out played pippen in 96.
In 92 jordan, drexler, pippen, porter, kersey, duckworth
Jordan for example lead the bulls in assists in 91&97

Sorry but herro is outplaying every one of bulls players out side of pippen and 96 rodman.
Also im not seeing those overqualified role players you are talking about good defenders yes most of them

[C0bR]

a career losing record

withou Pippen Jordan was an Andrew Wiggins on a hot streak

[Heej]

Pippen was the backbone of their defense and main facilitator/playcaller on offense. You could probably win a similar number of rings if you replaced him with someone like Reggie Miller, but that speaks more to how damn stacked the Bulls were considering their first, second, third, and fourth options were always better than their opponents respective first, second, third and fourth options. They had guys who were overqualified for the roles they played, not overmatched guys like Tyler Herro or something

Really

90/91
Magic 21 ppg 8 rpg 13 apg
Worthy 21 ppg 4 rpg 4 apg
Perkins 18 ppg 8 rpg
Scott 13 ppg
Divac 13 ppg 7 rpg
Vs
Pippen 21 ppg 9 rpg 7 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Grant 15 ppg 8 rpg 2 apg 2 spg 1bpg
Paxson 13 ppg 2 rpg 3 apg 1 spg 0 bpg

91/92
Drexler 26 ppg 7 rpg 7 apg
Porter 21 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg
Kersey 16 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg
Duckworth 12 ppg 6 rpg
Ainge, cliff robinson, buck williams 10 ppg
Vs
Pippen 20 ppg 8 apg 8 rpg 2 spg 1 bpg
Grant 9 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg 1 spg 2 bpg
Paxson 10 ppg 1 rpg 3 apg 1 spg

92/93
Barkley 27 ppg 14 rpg 4 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Kevin johnson 18 ppg 3 rpg 8 apg
Majerle 15 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg 1 spg 1 bpg
Richard dumas 11 ppg
Vs
Pippen 21 ppg 9 rpg 8 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Bj 14 ppg 2 rpg 5 apg 1 spg
Grant 11 ppg 10 rpg 2 apg 2 spg 2 bpg
Last 2 games grant scored 2 point combined with 7 rpg

95/96
Kemp 21 ppg 10 rpg 2 apg 1 spg 2 bpg
Payton 21 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg 2 spg
Schrempf 16 ppg 5 rpg 3 apg
Perkins 12 ppg 4 rpg 2 apg
Hawkins 12 ppg 3 rpg 3 apg
Vs
Pippen 16 ppg 7 rpg 5 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Kukoc 13 ppg 5 rpg 4 apg 1 spg
Longley 12 ppg 4 rpg 2 apg 2 bpg
Rodman 8 ppg 15 rpg 3 apg

96/97
Malone 26 ppg 11 rpg 3 apg 1 spg&bpg
Stockton 16 ppg 4 rpg 10 apg 2 spg
Hornacek 14 ppg 4 rpg 4 apg
Russell 12 ppg 5 rpg
Vs
Pippen 20 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg 2 spg 2 bpg
Kukoc 8 ppg 3 rpg 3 apg
Bison dele 7 ppg
Rodman 2 ppg 8 rpg

97/98
Malone 26 ppg 11 rpg
Stockton 11 ppg 8 apg
Hornacek and russel 11 ppg
Vs
Pippen 16 ppg 7 rpg 5 apg 2 spg 1 bpg
Kukoc 15 ppg 5 rpg 3 apg
Rodman 3 ppg 8 rpg
Harper 5 ppg
Kerr 4 ppg

So no 3rd 4th or 5 th bulls player never out played 3rd 4th or 5th best bulls player except for 98.
Payton out played pippen in 96.
In 92 jordan, drexler, pippen, porter, kersey, duckworth
Jordan for example lead the bulls in assists in 91&97

Sorry but herro is outplaying every one of bulls players out side of pippen and 96 rodman.
Also im not seeing those overqualified role players you are talking about good defenders yes most of them

"Good defenders yes most of them" as if that's not an entire half of the game and where guys like Pip, Grant, and Rodman made their hay . Also, Worthy and Scott were injured lol. Herro is literally such a defensive liability that Miami has to tilt their entire scheme into ultra hard hedging 25 feet from the basket just to protect him enough so he can stay in the game. Stop it. Watch the games