Tyrese Haliburton is a basketball genius

[abark]

They did get a haul in an all star C?

Sabonis is def a very good player. Haliburton is special and it was obvious at the time of the trade.

Kings got fleeced.

Haliburton is very good and an all star. When you say special are you saying Jordan or Lebron special? Or what caliber player do you have him at? All nba first team?

I don’t know his ceiling but he’s averaging over 20 and 10 while leading the league in assists at 22. He’s also a very efficient scorer, shooting over 40% from 3 with a 62% TS.

Sabonis is 26. He’s never made any of the 3 All NBA teams. He’s reached his peak. And I’d def choose Haliburton over him right now even if he didn’t have 4 more years of development to reach the point in his career Sabonis is at anyway. But i’ll take back saying the Pacers absolutely fleeced the Kings if Haliburton somehow doesn’t improve over the next 4 years. Highly unlikely for a 22 yr old.

The Kings are only doing 2 games better than the Pacers and Haliburton doesn’t have a running mate of Fox’s caliber.

Sabonis will never made any All NBA team and Haliburton eventually will. So let’s just make that the arbitrary barometer for “special.”

[VanWest82]

Kings got fleeced.

Think you have to look at it at leasta little from the context of: Kings gave out a 160M to Fox who was floundering to the point of being untradable. Sabonis has turned out to be a great fit with him, so the trade was really Haliburton for Sabonis + huge return on their Fox investment. From that lens, Kings did ok. Maybe they shouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place.

[holdenwait]

good thread bump tbh

[abark]

Kings got fleeced.

Think you have to look at it at leasta little from the context of: Kings gave out a 160M to Fox who was floundering to the point of being untradable. Sabonis has turned out to be a great fit with him, so the trade was really Haliburton for Sabonis + huge return on their Fox investment. From that lens, Kings did ok. Maybe they shouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place.

Yes, the Kings mismanaged themselves into trading the better PG. We agree there.

If you think Sabonis was equal value, simply as an asset, to Haliburton then we don’t agree.

[BrianInPhilly]

I'm loving Tyrese and I'm all aboard his hype train, and I wanna see him catapulted stardom and take the Pacers deep into the playoffs where we haven't been in awhile.

But the Kings have a better record than the Pacers currently. Talk of them getting fleeced in the trade is way premature.

They got fleeced. There’s this weird counter argument to that of essentially saying just adding Fox to the trade as if it’s Sabonis/Fox vs. Haliburton ... like no. Sacramento was already on the way up. If they kept Hapiburton & Fox, and then added shooters like they did this past offseason anyway, they’d be even better. Sacramento is by far a better team than Indiana taking away Sabonis & Haliburton. Tyrese is literally the only average+ playmaker and shot creator on the whole Pacers roster. He is the engine for everything they do.

Kings screwed up. They gave up on the Fox/Haliburton backcourt too soon. Fox is a poor playmaker / passer so it works in theory.

[sackings916]

Sabonis is def a very good player. Haliburton is special and it was obvious at the time of the trade.

Kings got fleeced.

Haliburton is very good and an all star. When you say special are you saying Jordan or Lebron special? Or what caliber player do you have him at? All nba first team?

I don’t know his ceiling but he’s averaging over 20 and 10 while leading the league in assists at 22. He’s also a very efficient scorer, shooting over 40% from 3 with a 62% TS.

Sabonis is 26. He’s never made any of the 3 All NBA teams. He’s reached his peak. And I’d def choose Haliburton over him right now even if he didn’t have 4 more years of development to reach the point in his career Sabonis is at anyway. But i’ll take back saying the Pacers absolutely fleeced the Kings if Haliburton somehow doesn’t improve over the next 4 years. Highly unlikely for a 22 yr old.

The Kings are only doing 2 games better than the Pacers and Haliburton doesn’t have a running mate of Fox’s caliber.

Sabonis will never made any All NBA team and Haliburton eventually will. So let’s just make that the arbitrary barometer for “special.”

And Sabonis is putting up 18, 12 and almost 7 assists and leading the league in rebounds and double doubles, with multiple triple doubles and 20/20 games, and also being very efficient. Who else in the league is putting those kind of numbers up?

And love seeing because a guy is 26 he’s hit his “peak” as if making any improvements is out of the question. This is Sabonis first time playing in a system where he’s featured as a primary playmaker in the high post, used as a DHO hub surrounded by shooting. Let’s see Haliburton make an all nba team first then we can say the Kings got fleeced.

[PT416]

I don't know how sustainable his numbers are - probably not super so - but it took watching him for about 30 seconds in the first game of the season to see that he's a BBIQ genius.

He doesn't appear to have any special physical gifts or eye-popping skills, though he's certainly accurate catching and shooting from three. He's not necessarily ever going to make the kind of highlight plays that the everyday fan usually associates with "basketball genius."

His genius amounts to one particular gift that has leaped off of the screen in the moments I've caught over a few games so far: he has an extraordinary ability to almost always be "in position," whether on offense or defense. He plays the game in real time in a way that almost no rookies ever do. Few players, never mind rookies, can sustain a few minutes of play without ever being a step out of position, but I've seen Haliburton do it.

Here are his numbers in 108 minutes over four games:

10.5/2.0/5.3/0.8/0.5 on .560/.500/1.000 splits. He's +3.1 on the court and has a +8.3 On-Off.

He's dropping 5.3 assists in 25 minutes per game with just 0.8 turnovers.

Obviously, his shooting numbers are likely to drop, so that's the main area for caution in projecting forward for the season.

I have no idea what his ceiling is. Could he a become a Chauncey Billups for this skinny, no-contact era? I really don't know. I just wanted to give him a shout out for his positioning. It's been a delight to watch.

I will add that his poise, vision, and the aforementioned catch-and-shoot three all seem to be decided strengths of his game.

You are a basketball genius.

[Murray_17]

But the Kings have a better record than the Pacers currently. Talk of them getting fleeced in the trade is way premature.

In terms of this season, sure.

But in the long run i don't see how this trade benefits the Kings, sure they're gonna make the playoffs. But they have a 2 season run before having to resign Sabonis and they have another dead big contract in Holmes.

They're gonna be set on a Fox/Sabonis/Huerter core that is limited by their defense.

The Pacers on the other hand have cap space to build for the future, both Mathurin and Haliburton are on rookie contracts and are probably long-term build blocks, they still can trade Turner/Hill on the deadline and get a good/great package for it plus some other good pieces on Nembhard and Smith.

That Fox contract was probably untradable, i get it, and they do the best they could, but still.

[abark]

Haliburton is very good and an all star. When you say special are you saying Jordan or Lebron special? Or what caliber player do you have him at? All nba first team?

I don’t know his ceiling but he’s averaging over 20 and 10 while leading the league in assists at 22. He’s also a very efficient scorer, shooting over 40% from 3 with a 62% TS.

Sabonis is 26. He’s never made any of the 3 All NBA teams. He’s reached his peak. And I’d def choose Haliburton over him right now even if he didn’t have 4 more years of development to reach the point in his career Sabonis is at anyway. But i’ll take back saying the Pacers absolutely fleeced the Kings if Haliburton somehow doesn’t improve over the next 4 years. Highly unlikely for a 22 yr old.

The Kings are only doing 2 games better than the Pacers and Haliburton doesn’t have a running mate of Fox’s caliber.

Sabonis will never made any All NBA team and Haliburton eventually will. So let’s just make that the arbitrary barometer for “special.”

And Sabonis is putting up 18, 12 and almost 7 assists and leading the league in rebounds and double doubles, with multiple triple doubles and 20/20 games, and also being very efficient. Who else in the league is putting those kind of numbers up?

And love seeing because a guy is 26 he’s hit his “peak” as if making any improvements is out of the question. This is Sabonis first time playing in a system where he’s featured as a primary playmaker in the high post, used as a DHO hub surrounded by shooting. Let’s see Haliburton make an all nba team first then we can say the Kings got fleeced.

I should have said “in his prime.” Yes a 26 yr old can obv improve, but usually not dramatically. A 22 year old will almost always improve (obviously there are exceptions).

And I think this 22 year old is already better than the 26 year old, despite the fact the 26 yr old is a very good player.

But I don’t get why Haliburton making the All NBA 1st team seems to be your necessary standard for it to be a bad trade (you’ve repeated that multiple times). What if he makes 2nd team multiple times? Sabonis has never even made the 3rd team.

[sackings916]

I don’t know his ceiling but he’s averaging over 20 and 10 while leading the league in assists at 22. He’s also a very efficient scorer, shooting over 40% from 3 with a 62% TS.

Sabonis is 26. He’s never made any of the 3 All NBA teams. He’s reached his peak. And I’d def choose Haliburton over him right now even if he didn’t have 4 more years of development to reach the point in his career Sabonis is at anyway. But i’ll take back saying the Pacers absolutely fleeced the Kings if Haliburton somehow doesn’t improve over the next 4 years. Highly unlikely for a 22 yr old.

The Kings are only doing 2 games better than the Pacers and Haliburton doesn’t have a running mate of Fox’s caliber.

Sabonis will never made any All NBA team and Haliburton eventually will. So let’s just make that the arbitrary barometer for “special.”

And Sabonis is putting up 18, 12 and almost 7 assists and leading the league in rebounds and double doubles, with multiple triple doubles and 20/20 games, and also being very efficient. Who else in the league is putting those kind of numbers up?

And love seeing because a guy is 26 he’s hit his “peak” as if making any improvements is out of the question. This is Sabonis first time playing in a system where he’s featured as a primary playmaker in the high post, used as a DHO hub surrounded by shooting. Let’s see Haliburton make an all nba team first then we can say the Kings got fleeced.

I should have said “in his prime.” Yes a 26 yr old can obv improve, but usually not dramatically. A 22 year old will almost always improve (obviously there are exceptions).

And I think this 22 year old is already better than the 26 year old, despite the fact the 26 yr old is a very good player.

But I don’t get why Haliburton making the All NBA 1st team seems to be your necessary standard for it to be a bad trade (you’ve repeated that multiple times). What if he makes 2nd team multiple times? Sabonis has never even made the 3rd team.

I never said all nba first team, just an all nba team. And im just not a fan of using generalizations with age as the main argument ie “ a 22 year old will improve while a 26 year old can’t improve”. Way too many factors to come to conclusions based on age. I’d argue Haliburton is close to his peak, as he lacks athleticism and burst to create, that he makes up for in IQ and skill.

[abark]

And Sabonis is putting up 18, 12 and almost 7 assists and leading the league in rebounds and double doubles, with multiple triple doubles and 20/20 games, and also being very efficient. Who else in the league is putting those kind of numbers up?

And love seeing because a guy is 26 he’s hit his “peak” as if making any improvements is out of the question. This is Sabonis first time playing in a system where he’s featured as a primary playmaker in the high post, used as a DHO hub surrounded by shooting. Let’s see Haliburton make an all nba team first then we can say the Kings got fleeced.

I should have said “in his prime.” Yes a 26 yr old can obv improve, but usually not dramatically. A 22 year old will almost always improve (obviously there are exceptions).

And I think this 22 year old is already better than the 26 year old, despite the fact the 26 yr old is a very good player.

But I don’t get why Haliburton making the All NBA 1st team seems to be your necessary standard for it to be a bad trade (you’ve repeated that multiple times). What if he makes 2nd team multiple times? Sabonis has never even made the 3rd team.

I never said all nba first team, just an all nba team. And im just not a fan of using generalizations with age as the main argument ie “ a 22 year old will improve while a 26 year old can’t improve”. Way too many factors to come to conclusions based on age. I’d argue Haliburton is close to his peak, as he lacks athleticism and burst to create, that he makes up for in IQ and skill.

You’re right. U said “let’s see if Haliburton makes All NBA first.” Misunderstanding.

but we know where we both stand here, and we’re clearly not going to agree. Can only see how it plays out.

[ChaseDown]

This guy is gonna be an all-star! I bet he makes it over guys like Jalen Brunson or Julius Randle. Those fake wannabe all stars got no chance.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Hali is the next real floor general. How many do we have in the league?

[VanWest82]

Kings got fleeced.

Think you have to look at it at leasta little from the context of: Kings gave out a 160M to Fox who was floundering to the point of being untradable. Sabonis has turned out to be a great fit with him, so the trade was really Haliburton for Sabonis + huge return on their Fox investment. From that lens, Kings did ok. Maybe they shouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place.

Yes, the Kings mismanaged themselves into trading the better PG. We agree there.

If you think Sabonis was equal value, simply as an asset, to Haliburton then we don’t agree.

I don't think that at all though I do believe there's a good case for Sabonis + increase in level of play from Fox = Haliburton.

[bisme37]

I love his game so much. Lock for Allstar and could be All NBA playing like this.

Read on Twitter

[rate_]

22 years old Chris Paul vs 22 years old Tyrese Haliburton:

Chris Paul: 21.1 points | 4.0 rebounds | 11.6 assists | 2.7 steals | 58% TS
Haliburton: 19.1 points | 4.0 rebounds | 10.1 assists | 1.7 steals | 62% TS

And CP3 was an MVP candidate at the time and some would argue should've won over Kobe.

[SNPA]

Sabonis has been great in Sac. Playing at an all star level and has opened up Fox’s game. The Kings are winning. Read that again, the Kings are winning. All of this is true, what is also true is trading Hali was a redline that should not have been crossed.

[knicksNOTslick]

Haliburton would have been great next to Brunson right now with Grimes off the bench.

Instead Knicks draft Obi who is buried behind Randle. The Kings messed up when they chose Fox over him.

[BrianInPhilly]

Think you have to look at it at leasta little from the context of: Kings gave out a 160M to Fox who was floundering to the point of being untradable. Sabonis has turned out to be a great fit with him, so the trade was really Haliburton for Sabonis + huge return on their Fox investment. From that lens, Kings did ok. Maybe they shouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place.

Yes, the Kings mismanaged themselves into trading the better PG. We agree there.

If you think Sabonis was equal value, simply as an asset, to Haliburton then we don’t agree.

I don't think that at all though I do believe there's a good case for Sabonis + increase in level of play from Fox = Haliburton.

If we’re adding “increase level of play from Fox” to this equation, then let’s also add “increase level of play from EVERY OTHER PACER besides Haliburton” . Virtually the whole team is having career years and/or getting a open looks from Haliburton’s creation.

[VanWest82]

Yes, the Kings mismanaged themselves into trading the better PG. We agree there.

If you think Sabonis was equal value, simply as an asset, to Haliburton then we don’t agree.

I don't think that at all though I do believe there's a good case for Sabonis + increase in level of play from Fox = Haliburton.

If we’re adding “increase level of play from Fox” to this equation, then let’s also add “increase level of play from EVERY OTHER PACER besides Haliburton” . Virtually the whole team is having career years and/or getting a open looks from Haliburton’s creation.

I'm not trying to argue Kings got a better deal than Pacers because they didn't, just that there's way more to this equation than Haliburton for Sabonis. People are acting like Kings didn't benefit at all here. They did, and arguably the biggest benefit is that Fox went from untradable to borderline all star, so from their perspective it's almost like a two for one. This was a trade that worked out for both teams.

Edit: Kings are +5.5 per 100 with Sabonis on the court (+12.1 net on/off). They were a -5 SRS team last year. That's a ridiculous turnaround.