Is KAT an empty stats player?

[AbeVigodaLive]

Correction: Jimmy Butler did. And he called him out as a loser on the way out. Hasn't been to the playoffs since.

Try again. Jimmy Butler played 59 games in that season, KAT played 82.

they lost almost every game butler didn’t play in at the end and he had to come back with a broken hand to drag them to the playoffs. Kat the. Proceeded to get like 8 ppg against the small ball rockets team.

You posted a lot of factually incorrect statements in only two (or is it three?) sentences.

Good gawd, man.

[FNQ]

I hate this question, because I feel like its lazy.

Most teams Cs are defensive anchors. With the way the game has evolved, its almost a necessity. So when you have a C like KAT, who really can't be that guy, but is an *elite* offensive player, you cannot attack the game the same way. You have to adjust, and you have to find a player that complements KAT and makes up for his inability to be the anchor.

The Wolves have literally never done this. And I dont think its any kind of coincidence that guys like Jimmy Butler, Andrew Wiggins, and probably several others do a nosedive defensively in MIN, and then rebound somewhere else.

KAT is not an empty stats player. He's an elite offensive player that is being hung out to dry by his organization because they cannot give him the complement he needs. Instead they keep trying to bring in wing scorers (or KAT's friends, great call there) to convince him not to leave.. but why? So they can ignore what the team needs defensively for a longer stretch of time?

55% voted yes as of now... why am I not surprised

[AbeVigodaLive]

It's not the guy with the +18.7 on/off's fault.

It's a very small sample size... especially for Towns. It's only a couple of stats. And we're specifically discussing "empty stats." But just for fun/context...

DBPM

Towns: +1.6
Russell: -2.3
Beasley: -2.6
Hernangomez: -2.1
Okogie: -0.5
-----
Bench
-----
Rubio: -0.2
Reid: -0.4
Edwards: -4.2
Culver: -2.4
Vanderbilt: +1.7

ORTG/DRTG
Towns: 122/111
Russell: 102/117
Beasley: 115/119
Hernangomez: 107/116
Okogie: 111/119
-----
Bench
-----
Rubio: 106/116
Reid: 116/115
Edwards: 92/119 (2020 #1 draft pick)
Culver: 96/117 (2019 #6 draft pick)
Vanderbilt: 124/108

[Dacost]

The roster is just awful the second unit especially doesn't even belong in the G-league.

Problem 1-the roster sucks.
Problem 2-awful fit.

[AbeVigodaLive]

The roster is just awful the second unit especially doesn't even belong in the G-league.

Problem 1-the roster sucks.
Problem 2-awful fit.

But the 2nd unit includes:

- The #1 pick in the 2020 draft.
- The #6 pick in the 2019 draft... who the Wolves traded up to draft.
- The team's prized offseason vet acquisition making $17+M per season.

[Lockdown504090]

I went back to check, they were 8-9 without Butler, not to mention that January through February they were 11-10 with Butler, so for the entire second part of the season they were hovering around .500. But when people remember, it seems as if they were 50-0 with Butler and 0-30 without him.

look at who they played those two months

Wow, that is a pretty impressive shifting of the goalposts, especially after such an authoritative statement.

its okay to be wrong. Kat never has been the reason theyve had success is my point.

[Joao Saraiva]

Obviously not. KAT is a fantastic offensive player. Give him a good creator in the perimeter and that team might get a great offensive ceilling.

His D doesn't look so good tough.

[SpreeS]

Is KAT an empty stats player?

Always puts nice numbers but always leads his team into a lottery picks.

Lost to Jimmy's bench crew while Jimmy was in Minnesota.

He's not an empty stats guy, he's an offense-only player at a position where defense is most important. That's damning and lowers his ceiling a great deal, but it's still a very different thing than an Antoine Walker who was literally hurting his team by shooting and sucking at it.

You could see who understand about this game from post like this.

[cupcakesnake]

Pretty weird time to evaluate KAT. He's barely played this season and last season was a total write-off between injuries and the pandemic.

I don't think you could want more, offensively, from a big. He's a post monster, one of the most versatile shooters to ever play the game at that size, a beast on the boards, a good passer. We haven't seen him play on a real team yet, aside from the one year with Jimmy Butler. Even on that team... KAT was third in shots, the team had a very difficult time getting him the ball when Wiggins and Teague were the ones tasked with doing it. That team had the #4 offense and won 47 games despite Jimmy Butler missing 23 games that year.

There's no sample size to analyze with him. One season on a team that had okay personnel. No one lifts garbage squads in the West. If by "empty stats player" you mean player on a bad team who puts up huge numbers, then yeah he's that. But I don't see anything about KAT's offense that isn't scalable on a good team. The defense is another question for sure. If I have doubts about KAT, it's what kind of team do you build around him if he end up a defensive liability at the 5. But on offense... I just don't see what else you could want from a big.

[FNQ]

I really wish that these polls weren't anonymous so I could just update my foe list with the 98 "yes" votes

[Shaka_Zulu]

He had good statistical game yesterday, but I wasnt wowed, call me old fanboy but I thought Valanciunas had far more impact. Valanciunas created extra points from numerious offensive rebounds, points and possessions that wouldnt be there if not for him, KAt had his stats but burned possessions and I never felt that KAT is cooking or taking over the game. KAT and Vuc right now I think might not be empty stats completely, but definitely not as good as their stats.

Valenciunas is very difficult big to face. He isnt given the credit he deserves.

Yeah, he is hard to box out, but I heard Minny gave up 80 points in the paint yesterday, thats unacceptable for a team with ''star'' center.

Thats true, and if he was the main guy to blame, I would be right there with you, like he has been in few matchups before (certain Houston Rockets match in playoffs and others etc). But current Kat is actually average to decent in spurts post defender, has encouraging increase in effort and hustle there compared to previous seasons, and the better sense to lay off the bad fouling he was succumbing to alot in earlier seasons. Now mainly just walling up and blocking alot.

But Brooks, Kyle Anderson, Clarke were all big for their positions compared to Wolves (and Valenciunas being one of the hardest in league to box out/outmuscle), and Kat was playing with 4 smaller guards (or 8 minutes with Vanderbilt at PF) for most of the time. The size difference in all positions and lack of D&poor rebounding (TONS of 2nd chance pts for Memphis, sheer size bullying) lead to basically taking turns on driving in mass as whole group, with only Kat there with similar size as the onslaught he was facing. The small ball nonsense, and lack of defending in our guard positions leads to a COMPLETE sive in defense.


When I say currently Kat is the LEAST of the issues defensively in this team, trust me, I mean it. If you dont believe me, watch the games he was injured. They were 30 pt blowouts by the time it was middle of 3rd quarter (EVERY team had way bigger size, not just talent). With him out there with them, we were leading 10 pts start of the 4th. Then started bully ball trapping and abusing every single mismatch and bad coaching assignments our bad rookie coach has this team doing. Not to mention Memphis themselves are a brilliantly coached team.

[AlexanderRight]

I’m so sick of this term “empty stats”. It gets thrown around way too much as an automatic go to move to discredit a player. What exactly is an “empty stats” player? There can be empty stats for a single game, when a player is heavily padding in meaningless minutes during garbage time when the game is already out of hand. Sure. But over an entire season? No. If someone is putting up All Star numbers in the NBA over the course of multiple seasons, he’s an All Star player. It’s not “empty”. If he’s losing, chances are he’s on a sorry team. There’s a reason no one uses that term for players on good teams.

[FNQ]

I’m so sick of this term “empty stats”. It gets thrown around way too much as an automatic go to move to discredit a player. What exactly is an “empty stats” player? There can be empty stats for a single game, when a player is heavily padding in meaningless minutes during garbage time when the game is already out of hand. Sure. But over an entire season? No. If someone is putting up All Star numbers in the NBA over the course of multiple seasons, he’s an All Star player. It’s not “empty”. If he’s losing, chances are he’s on a sorry team. There’s a reason no one uses that term for players on good teams.

The last time I saw it used correctly was in the Monta Ellis / Ricky Davis eras. Where those players were definitely putting up counting stats and it didnt help the team win.

It literally means getting their #s to the detriment of the team - not the team failing the player. I'm probably one of the harshest Melo critics and I wouldnt call him an empty stats guy.. I was equally critical of Nique, and I wouldnt call him an empty stats guy.

If I had to pick one empty stats guy right now, I guess it would be DLo.. to me its someone who's main value comes from scoring but they can't do it well enough to elevate their team. KAT definitely elevates his team but he's not a traditional superstar and requires a competent FO to cover for where he's weak. Imagine KAT + Draymond, or if you want to go back a bit, KAT with someone like Kirilenko. Would we be having this discussion? Nah, we'd be talking about how the Wolves would fare in the Western playoffs instead

[queridiculo]

Kat is a beast, the Timberwolves have just done a piss poor job building around him.

[Chanel Bomber]

I’m so sick of this term “empty stats”. It gets thrown around way too much as an automatic go to move to discredit a player. What exactly is an “empty stats” player? There can be empty stats for a single game, when a player is heavily padding in meaningless minutes during garbage time when the game is already out of hand. Sure. But over an entire season? No. If someone is putting up All Star numbers in the NBA over the course of multiple seasons, he’s an All Star player. It’s not “empty”. If he’s losing, chances are he’s on a sorry team. There’s a reason no one uses that term for players on good teams.

Empty stats are stats that don't impact winning that are simply generated by the fact that possessions lead to action.

The reason that no one uses that terms for players on good teams is because empty stats guys wouldn't get the usage that allows them to put up numbers on losing teams if they were in a winning situation.

There's definitely a place for this term, and there has been throughout NBA history.

[slicedbread2]

I don't think so.

But when you look at this bum ass roster that's around him, it'd make anyone look bad. Hell, prime KG would lose his crap and demand a trade if he had to put up with this garbage or any other competent superstar. Here's some of the more glaring issues that are plaguing this team:

-They completely misused Wiggins and tried to force him to be something he really wasn't cut out for. Yes, he'll never live up to that contract and it was time to move him elsewhere for a fresh start, but bringing in D'lo was even worse as Russell is a guard version of Wiggins who's an inefficient bricklayer and is a liability on defense. To make matters worse, they gave up their 21 1st(top 3 pro.)+21 2nd all in the name of placating KAT. Really?! There's a reason Russell has been on 4 teams in his career: he's purely an empty stats player that has matador defense whereas the W's have successfully rebuilt Wiggins into a reliable guard player that has vets like Draymond on his tail and forcing him to give effort plus it helps that the Warriors are competent. If they were offered Wiggins straight up for Russell, they'd have taken it knowing that Russell+Curry would be killed on defense.

-Drafting/Trading: They have traded for and have drafted so many guards it's pathetic. There's only so much playing time you can give around and it doesn't help that outside of Edwards who needs time to develop that the rest of the 2 guards either suck on offense(Culver, Okogie) or are pure trash on defense(Beasley, Russell). Then they gave up the 17th pick for Rubio and the 25+28 then give up their 2nd to move up 2 spots. If you were gonna move Covington, take 2 1sts instead of Beasley and Juancho who quite frankly aren't that good and are now on long-term contracts. If they had wanted, they could've signed them when they were RFA's.

-Ownership/Management: Good leadership starts at the top and Glen Taylor has been the poster child for severe ineptitude. Yes without Taylor, the T-Wolves wouldn't be here as evidenced by the fact that they nearly relocated to NOLA in 95 before Taylor swooped in. What really is baffling is that he didn't hesitate to give Wiggins a contract that nobody was offering when the Wolves held all the leverage and Wiggins was an inefficient player, but then he hesitates to give a 5 year contract to Jimmy Butler who was easily the best thing to happen to the T-Wolves since KG. Then he gave away all authority to Thibodeau to run the show as coach/POBO(never ends well: ask Pop and Riley. Both stepped down). Went horribly wrong. No wonder KG doesn't want anything to do with this team.

It's a shame that the Rockets were petty that they wouldn't deal with Morey. Otherwise if they had went through with Philly's offer, the T-Wolves could've swooped in and try and nab Simmons+whatever in exchange for young players+picks+filler as Simmons would solve so many issues this team has from having an actual starting calibre 4 to being a high IQ defensive anchor who can pass and can get you buckets at will when surrounded with shooters. Alas it wasn't meant to be.

I wouldn't be surprised to see KAT demand a trade if this clown show keeps up, but it's gonna suck that they won't even have their pick which will be either this year or next year(thanks D'lo and Rosas).

[HiRez]

The only time the Wolves look like an NBA team is when he plays.. so no.

Well yeah but is that because KAT is that good or because the Wolves excluding KAT are that bad? Personally I think KAT is pretty good (mostly on offense of course) but I also think most above average legit NBA players added to the Wolves could make them look significantly better. Also questionable whether they even look like "an NBA team" with KAT.

Take a look at Andrew Wiggins. On the Wolves a lot of people said his stats were empty. Now on the Warriors, some of his stats (like scoring) are actually down, yet he's having a bigger impact because he's playing defense and not chucking as much.

[AlexanderRight]

I’m so sick of this term “empty stats”. It gets thrown around way too much as an automatic go to move to discredit a player. What exactly is an “empty stats” player? There can be empty stats for a single game, when a player is heavily padding in meaningless minutes during garbage time when the game is already out of hand. Sure. But over an entire season? No. If someone is putting up All Star numbers in the NBA over the course of multiple seasons, he’s an All Star player. It’s not “empty”. If he’s losing, chances are he’s on a sorry team. There’s a reason no one uses that term for players on good teams.

The last time I saw it used correctly was in the Monta Ellis / Ricky Davis eras. Where those players were definitely putting up counting stats and it didnt help the team win.

It literally means getting their #s to the detriment of the team - not the team failing the player. I'm probably one of the harshest Melo critics and I wouldnt call him an empty stats guy.. I was equally critical of Nique, and I wouldnt call him an empty stats guy.

If I had to pick one empty stats guy right now, I guess it would be DLo.. to me its someone who's main value comes from scoring but they can't do it well enough to elevate their team. KAT definitely elevates his team but he's not a traditional superstar and requires a competent FO to cover for where he's weak. Imagine KAT + Draymond, or if you want to go back a bit, KAT with someone like Kirilenko. Would we be having this discussion? Nah, we'd be talking about how the Wolves would fare in the Western playoffs instead

Monta Ellis averaged 18PPG on 45% for his whole career. I’m not trynna act like those are some beast ass numbers but if those are empty then that means we got a whole lot of meaningless players in the the NBA. And do you honestly believe that AK-47 with KAT and a bunch of scrubs would do anything of note in today’s Western Confrence?

[FNQ]

I’m so sick of this term “empty stats”. It gets thrown around way too much as an automatic go to move to discredit a player. What exactly is an “empty stats” player? There can be empty stats for a single game, when a player is heavily padding in meaningless minutes during garbage time when the game is already out of hand. Sure. But over an entire season? No. If someone is putting up All Star numbers in the NBA over the course of multiple seasons, he’s an All Star player. It’s not “empty”. If he’s losing, chances are he’s on a sorry team. There’s a reason no one uses that term for players on good teams.

The last time I saw it used correctly was in the Monta Ellis / Ricky Davis eras. Where those players were definitely putting up counting stats and it didnt help the team win.

It literally means getting their #s to the detriment of the team - not the team failing the player. I'm probably one of the harshest Melo critics and I wouldnt call him an empty stats guy.. I was equally critical of Nique, and I wouldnt call him an empty stats guy.

If I had to pick one empty stats guy right now, I guess it would be DLo.. to me its someone who's main value comes from scoring but they can't do it well enough to elevate their team. KAT definitely elevates his team but he's not a traditional superstar and requires a competent FO to cover for where he's weak. Imagine KAT + Draymond, or if you want to go back a bit, KAT with someone like Kirilenko. Would we be having this discussion? Nah, we'd be talking about how the Wolves would fare in the Western playoffs instead

Monta Ellis averaged 18PPG on 45% for his whole career. I’m not trynna act like those are some beast ass numbers but if those are empty then that means we got a whole lot of meaningless players in the the NBA. And do you honestly believe that AK-47 with KAT and a bunch of scrubs would do anything of note in today’s Western Confrence?

And he was a career loser who never elevated his team. If you can base how good a player is on PPG and FG% then.. how the hell are you calling out anyone on empty stats??

[AlexanderRight]

The last time I saw it used correctly was in the Monta Ellis / Ricky Davis eras. Where those players were definitely putting up counting stats and it didnt help the team win.

It literally means getting their #s to the detriment of the team - not the team failing the player. I'm probably one of the harshest Melo critics and I wouldnt call him an empty stats guy.. I was equally critical of Nique, and I wouldnt call him an empty stats guy.

If I had to pick one empty stats guy right now, I guess it would be DLo.. to me its someone who's main value comes from scoring but they can't do it well enough to elevate their team. KAT definitely elevates his team but he's not a traditional superstar and requires a competent FO to cover for where he's weak. Imagine KAT + Draymond, or if you want to go back a bit, KAT with someone like Kirilenko. Would we be having this discussion? Nah, we'd be talking about how the Wolves would fare in the Western playoffs instead

Monta Ellis averaged 18PPG on 45% for his whole career. I’m not trynna act like those are some beast ass numbers but if those are empty then that means we got a whole lot of meaningless players in the the NBA. And do you honestly believe that AK-47 with KAT and a bunch of scrubs would do anything of note in today’s Western Confrence?

And he was a career loser who never elevated his team. If you can base how good a player is on PPG and FG% then.. how the hell are you calling out anyone on empty stats??

Putting a lot expectation and hate on a 2nd round pick aren’t we? I’m not saying those numbers proves he’s so good, I’m saying it proves he’s not empty. Monta was never the leader of the We Believe Warriors and once those leaders left and Steph showed up, they didn’t have anyone outside those two and their numbers weren’t worlds apart. Monta was in the playoffs every full year he had after GS. What else are you expecting?