Homer Warning: Dirk was an absolute boss

[Texas Chuck]

Dirk's loyalty to the Mavs will hold back his legacy. Had he forced his way to LA to play with Kobe or Miami to play with Wade, he would be regarded as at least a tier higher in the ATG rankings today.

Well that is clearly false.

[The_Hater]

2.0? I`d take Dirk any day over KD easily.

I think that would be a minority opinion. KD is a far more well rounded and versatile player than Dirk was while also being a great shooter.

Durant is without any question a superior scorer to Dirk. There is no argument to the contrary. Dirk is probably still the superior overall player because of how he was able to completely warp defenses like no player before or since*. Durant for all his individual greatness doesn't provide nearly the same lift to his teammates as Dirk did.

*I'm talking about how he did it, not necessarily degree. Steph's warping effect is also enormous--just done totally different. But Dirk in a PNR or in a high post elbow was absolutely unguardable and teams had no answers to either.

All fair but KD is better defensively. A better ball handler and passer. Both have avoided playing in bad teams their entire primes so no advantage there.

But I think when Durant is finished and we start ranking him among the ATG’s, very few people will have him below Dirk.

Dirk is in that 16-23 range with a lot of great bigs (Karl, Moses, Drob, KG, Barkley). KD is probably in or even above that group right now and still has a few years left to stack his resume.

[Texas Chuck]

All fair but KD is better defensively. A better ball handler and passer. Both have avoided playing in bad teams their entire primes so no advantage there.

But I think when Durant is finished and we start ranking him among the ATG’s, very few people will have him below Dirk.

Dirk is in that 16-23 range with a lot of great bigs (Karl, Moses, Drob, KG, Barkley). KD is probably in or even above that group right now and still has a few years left to stack his resume.

KD isn't that high yet, but I agree that if he can continue to play at this level for another 3-4 years he is likely to surpass Dirk on an all-time ranking.

Defender is eh. His ceiling is higher for sure, but his consistency doesn't match Dirk's. Dirk certainly has more career defensive value still and that's not a longevity mark either as Dirk was clearly a liability the last 6 or 7 years of his career.

And yes KD is a better passer, but that's misleading. Just like KG was a better passer. But all of us who followed the league understand that Dirk "created" far more wide open shots for his teammates than either of those guys ever managed. It's why I cited his gravity when discussing why he's the superior offensive player to KD despite being an inferior scorer. He knew the best pressure points to put on a defense and defenses reacted to him in ways they've never reacted to KD.

[The_Hater]

All fair but KD is better defensively. A better ball handler and passer. Both have avoided playing in bad teams their entire primes so no advantage there.

But I think when Durant is finished and we start ranking him among the ATG’s, very few people will have him below Dirk.

Dirk is in that 16-23 range with a lot of great bigs (Karl, Moses, Drob, KG, Barkley). KD is probably in or even above that group right now and still has a few years left to stack his resume.

KD isn't that high yet, but I agree that if he can continue to play at this level for another 3-4 years he is likely to surpass Dirk on an all-time ranking.

Defender is eh. His ceiling is higher for sure, but his consistency doesn't match Dirk's. Dirk certainly has more career defensive value still and that's not a longevity mark either as Dirk was clearly a liability the last 6 or 7 years of his career.

And yes KD is a better passer, but that's misleading. Just like KG was a better passer. But all of us who followed the league understand that Dirk "created" far more wide open shots for his teammates than either of those guys ever managed. It's why I cited his gravity when discussing why he's the superior offensive player to KD despite being an inferior scorer. He knew the best pressure points to put on a defense and defenses reacted to him in ways they've never reacted to KD.

I think KD is overrated as a defender, but Dirk isn’t setting a particularly high bar to top.

Anyways. They’re both great and I like them both as players (KD’s personality is another story) so I don’t want to turn this into a trashing one player to prop up another sort of thing from my side. Didn’t we have a similar Dirk/KG debate a few months back?

[whatever_]

Read on Twitter

I hope Luka continues to get better at his post up game. He’s been good this year but I think he has potential to be great from the post and mid range.


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The other day he hit a one-legged fade away jumper, very similar to Dirk's.
Or was I dreaming?

[Texas Chuck]

Anyways. They’re both great and I like them both as players (KD’s personality is another story) so I don’t want to turn this into a trashing one player to prop up another sort of thing from my side. Didn’t we have a similar Dirk/KG debate a few months back?

I didn't feel like either of us was trashing either player, were we? We just have a small disagreement on Dirk's defense which is understandable and you currently rank KD a bit higher than I do. Again seems within the realm of reason both ways.

KD is a beast. Dirk is a beast. I'm a Dirk homer so I'm going to lean his way. I won't attempt to deny fandom influences my views here.

[Texas Chuck]

The other day he hit a one-legged fade away jumper, very similar to Dirk's.
Or was I dreaming?

Lots of players work the one-legger in. From Lebron and KD to a guy like Olynyk who grew up a huge Dirk fan. If you are a long guy with a good jumper its a terrific way to get space. Just like all the ball-handlers started using the Eurostep after Manu demonstrated how effective it was. Or all the guys with rip throughs.

[juanc]

this is probably one of my favourite Dirk highlights. A 38 years old Dirk needed 20 points to reach 30,000 points. He got that in less than 13 minutes
Oh and the 30,000th point was a fadeaway

Watch on YouTube

;t=204s

[Pg81]

All fair but KD is better defensively. A better ball handler and passer. Both have avoided playing in bad teams their entire primes so no advantage there.

But I think when Durant is finished and we start ranking him among the ATG’s, very few people will have him below Dirk.

Dirk is in that 16-23 range with a lot of great bigs (Karl, Moses, Drob, KG, Barkley). KD is probably in or even above that group right now and still has a few years left to stack his resume.

KD isn't that high yet, but I agree that if he can continue to play at this level for another 3-4 years he is likely to surpass Dirk on an all-time ranking.

Defender is eh. His ceiling is higher for sure, but his consistency doesn't match Dirk's. Dirk certainly has more career defensive value still and that's not a longevity mark either as Dirk was clearly a liability the last 6 or 7 years of his career.

And yes KD is a better passer, but that's misleading. Just like KG was a better passer. But all of us who followed the league understand that Dirk "created" far more wide open shots for his teammates than either of those guys ever managed. It's why I cited his gravity when discussing why he's the superior offensive player to KD despite being an inferior scorer. He knew the best pressure points to put on a defense and defenses reacted to him in ways they've never reacted to KD.

I think KD is overrated as a defender, but Dirk isn’t setting a particularly high bar to top.

Anyways. They’re both great and I like them both as players (KD’s personality is another story) so I don’t want to turn this into a trashing one player to prop up another sort of thing from my side. Didn’t we have a similar Dirk/KG debate a few months back?

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

As to passing, overrated. KD is neither a playmaker nor even remotely as much of a transcendent "off ball" passer as Bird. His impact via passing is minimal and barely an advantage if at all. Dribbling? What do I care about that? He is no Iverson or Hardaway. Dirk has all time great turnover economy, that is all that matters. That being said, young Dirk could blow by pgs and sgs many just have either not seen young Dirk or have forgotten just how quick he was.

[The_Hater]

KD isn't that high yet, but I agree that if he can continue to play at this level for another 3-4 years he is likely to surpass Dirk on an all-time ranking.

Defender is eh. His ceiling is higher for sure, but his consistency doesn't match Dirk's. Dirk certainly has more career defensive value still and that's not a longevity mark either as Dirk was clearly a liability the last 6 or 7 years of his career.

And yes KD is a better passer, but that's misleading. Just like KG was a better passer. But all of us who followed the league understand that Dirk "created" far more wide open shots for his teammates than either of those guys ever managed. It's why I cited his gravity when discussing why he's the superior offensive player to KD despite being an inferior scorer. He knew the best pressure points to put on a defense and defenses reacted to him in ways they've never reacted to KD.

I think KD is overrated as a defender, but Dirk isn’t setting a particularly high bar to top.

Anyways. They’re both great and I like them both as players (KD’s personality is another story) so I don’t want to turn this into a trashing one player to prop up another sort of thing from my side. Didn’t we have a similar Dirk/KG debate a few months back?

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

So one person thinks he eventually developed into ‘pretty good’ after a career where he was mostly considered average as best. And the statistical information being used is from 1 partial season during a 20 year career.

Not sure that contradicts my theory that he didn’t set a high bar.

[Mr B]

Dirk's loyalty to the Mavs will hold back his legacy. Had he demanded a trade to LA or Miami to play with Kobe/Wade (or any other team with a superstar at the time), he would be regarded as at least a tier higher in the ATG rankings today.

Actually I think it’s the exact opposite. His loyalty to one team elevates his legacy in my opinion. Some have been taking about KD here and even though he’s a great player joining that GS team kind of hurt his legacy in my opinion. It’s viewed by many as him riding their coat tails to a title.


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[Mr B]

Read on Twitter

I hope Luka continues to get better at his post up game. He’s been good this year but I think he has potential to be great from the post and mid range.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The other day he hit a one-legged fade away jumper, very similar to Dirk's.
Or was I dreaming?

He’s definitely been using it this season. I think he’s becoming extremely underrated as a mid-range scorer.


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[Raps in 4]

Dirk's loyalty to the Mavs will hold back his legacy. Had he demanded a trade to LA or Miami to play with Kobe/Wade (or any other team with a superstar at the time), he would be regarded as at least a tier higher in the ATG rankings today.

Actually I think it’s the exact opposite. His loyalty to one team elevates his legacy in my opinion. Some have been taking about KD here and even though he’s a great player joining that GS team kind of hurt his legacy in my opinion. It’s viewed by many as him riding their coat tails to a title.


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Most people are dumb and only look at rings when assessing greatness. Just look at the debates that go on in here.

[ccameron]

My Heat were on the receiving end of it, I know it well. I remember watching this shot basically touch the rafters, yelling the entire arc that seemed like an eternity, because I knew it was going in.

Watch on YouTube

[dakomish23]

Read on Twitter

Nothing homer about this. One of the best to ever play

[dakomish23]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7vlk3r

Every bucket of game 5

[zonedefense]

Ignoring turnovers a contested midrange jumper or post up from Dirk was the worst possible outcome of a possession. The ultimate bail out for a broken play or late shot clock situation. Even when the defense played it perfectly. There was no way to take away DIrks jumper.

[Mr B]

Dirk's loyalty to the Mavs will hold back his legacy. Had he demanded a trade to LA or Miami to play with Kobe/Wade (or any other team with a superstar at the time), he would be regarded as at least a tier higher in the ATG rankings today.

Actually I think it’s the exact opposite. His loyalty to one team elevates his legacy in my opinion. Some have been taking about KD here and even though he’s a great player joining that GS team kind of hurt his legacy in my opinion. It’s viewed by many as him riding their coat tails to a title.


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Most people are dumb and only look at rings when assessing greatness. Just look at the debates that go on in here.

Good point


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[ZB9]

I think that would be a minority opinion. KD is a far more well rounded and versatile player than Dirk was while also being a great shooter.

Durant is without any question a superior scorer to Dirk. There is no argument to the contrary. Dirk is probably still the superior overall player because of how he was able to completely warp defenses like no player before or since*. Durant for all his individual greatness doesn't provide nearly the same lift to his teammates as Dirk did.

*I'm talking about how he did it, not necessarily degree. Steph's warping effect is also enormous--just done totally different. But Dirk in a PNR or in a high post elbow was absolutely unguardable and teams had no answers to either.

All fair but KD is better defensively.

KD might be a better perimeter defender but Dirk was a better post defender and a MUCH better defensive rebounder than Durant.

[Pg81]

I think KD is overrated as a defender, but Dirk isn’t setting a particularly high bar to top.

Anyways. They’re both great and I like them both as players (KD’s personality is another story) so I don’t want to turn this into a trashing one player to prop up another sort of thing from my side. Didn’t we have a similar Dirk/KG debate a few months back?

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

So one person thinks he eventually developed into ‘pretty good’ after a career where he was mostly considered average as best. And the statistical information being used is from 1 partial season during a 20 year career.

Not sure that contradicts my theory that he didn’t set a high bar.

When people say "did not set a high bar" they usually want to imply that he was actually pretty bad. In other words James Harden did not set a very high bar to illustrate my point. The article is from 2013, which is a year where Dirk was clearly out of his prime yet he still had good numbers. Dirk during his prime was usually in the top 10 to borderline top 5 post defender. His defensive rebounding was near KG/Duncan level. He did not block much but as TexasChuck mentioned he had developed Karl Malones swipe as a potent defensive tool for deflections. Was he a defensive juggernaut? No of course not. Was he as bad as you and other constantly try to imply? No not even remotely.