New direction Bulls. do you bullieve? (August thread : have you changed your mind?)

[Michael Jackson]

DeRozan averaged 7 apg last season. More than anyone on the Bulls. He got to the line at 7.2 attempts per game. More than anyone on the Bulls. Scored very efficiently in the paint / midrange. These are all things bulls needed and were lacking.

They solved the initiator problem when they signed Lonzo (which again was a great move). It will be nice to have a guy that can get to the line and score in the mid range, but it just won't justify the losses on defense/spacing/offensive flow. LaVine was incredibly efficient last year (significantly more than DD) and part of the reason for that was having the keys to the offense/the luxury of finding his rhythm early and often. That changes with the addition of a high usage player like DeRozan.

DD's on/off has been negative in 11 of 12 seasons and all 6 of his playoff appearances. At a certain point I think we gotta accept the pattern for what it is- an indication that he's not a very impactful player. Trading Thad and a 1st for the right to overpay added insult to injury imo.

I see people still have this false believe that Lonzo is great initiator, which was on his scouting report when he was a rookie, but honestly he really isnt. He is good in transition, but in half court he is barely a point guard at all, he is surprisingly good off ball player. Bulls could start Demar of the bench, but anyhow, I imagine Demar will probably be their main ''point guard''/''point forward'' in the half court offense, he is easily their best playmaker in that setting. Those 3 perimeter players really aren't the problem in my opinion, I am more concerned with lack of rim protection and scarce big men rotation.

Yes it is most likely that half court is run by DDR in the Bulls offense. Ball will be the bail out shooter. Ball will lead the breaks though and I expect since the Bulls interior d is lacking their scheme is to try to force a lot of transition baskets.

[Ballerhogger]

DeRozan doesn’t jack up threes at a low percentage. He’s hardly averaged 1 3pt attempt in his last 3 years and only 1.5 attempts for his whole career. He just doesn’t shoot threes…. He’s definitely not a poor shooter… just not a three point shooter.

which they need help spread the floor vuviec has to get rebounds somtime . Alex Caruso sucked at 3 last season

Alex Caruso sucked at 3 last season?!?

He shot 40% at 2.4 attempts.

There’s enough spreading the floor with the bulls. Every single one of our starters except DeRozan can shoot the 3……Lonzo, LaVine, PWill, & even Vuc.

Including Coby & Caruso

Caruso missed so many open shots I watched ton of games . Trust me he hardly shot 3s begin always give up open 3s

[Pointgod]

DeRozan averaged 7 apg last season. More than anyone on the Bulls. He got to the line at 7.2 attempts per game. More than anyone on the Bulls. Scored very efficiently in the paint / midrange. These are all things bulls needed and were lacking.

They solved the initiator problem when they signed Lonzo (which again was a great move). It will be nice to have a guy that can get to the line and score in the mid range, but it just won't justify the losses on defense/spacing/offensive flow. LaVine was incredibly efficient last year (significantly more than DD) and part of the reason for that was having the keys to the offense/the luxury of finding his rhythm early and often. That changes with the addition of a high usage player like DeRozan.

DD's on/off has been negative in 11 of 12 seasons and all 6 of his playoff appearances. At a certain point I think we gotta accept the pattern for what it is- an indication that he's not a very impactful player. Trading Thad and a 1st for the right to overpay added insult to injury imo.

I see people still have this false believe that Lonzo is great initiator, which was on his scouting report when he was a rookie, but honestly he really isnt. He is good in transition, but in half court he is barely a point guard at all, he is surprisingly good off ball player. Bulls could start Demar of the bench, but anyhow, I imagine Demar will probably be their main ''point guard''/''point forward'' in the half court offense, he is easily their best playmaker in that setting. Those 3 perimeter players really aren't the problem in my opinion, I am more concerned with lack of rim protection and scarce big men rotation.

You can really tell who watches games and who doesn’t. Anyone that believes Lonzo is a lead guard or initiator has not watched him play over the past 4 years. His best role is as a ball mover in the half court and the guy that can rebound and lead the fast break. I think you nailed the Bulls offense. Let Derozan initiate in the half court. Lavine, Lonzo, Vucevic and Williams can all play off of him.

[Yuri Vaultin]

The team seems to have only one capable defender in the starting line-up.

[matt6715]

NBA twitter/social media gets too caught up in 'championship or bust'. If you can build a team that wins 60% of its games and has a chance to make the second round of the playoffs each year, that's a recipe for a happy fanbase and a successful front office. Look at the Knicks and Hawks last year - their fanbases are just happy to be back in the national picture again and they can both now aspire for more. Bulls did well to field a competitive team.

[pipfan]

Not only do the Bulls want to become relevant, but if they are good, they are then 1 trade away from becoming a contender, with a big market and desirable future teammates for a star to join them. If Williams looks better he is a nice piece-CobyW not so much but could improve off ball

[Pointgod]

Not only do the Bulls want to become relevant, but if they are good, they are then 1 trade away from becoming a contender, with a big market and desirable future teammates for a star to join them. If Williams looks better he is a nice piece-CobyW not so much but could improve off ball

This is the part that I’m surprised so many supposedly knowledgeable posters on here don’t understand. So many people have been fed the narrative that the Bulls don’t have any assets which simply isn’t true. They have their pick in 22,24 and 26 onwards. They have Portland’s pick, and Coby White should get them back an interesting piece or two. This will not be the final form of the Bulls. The Bulls have a lot of ammo left in the chamber.

[vxmike]

I like Demar and Lonzo. Those two with some shooters and a defensive center would be pretty decent.

Which makes the Vucevic move a complete waste.

Vucevic is a shooter. He opens up a lot of space for Demar and LaVine to get to the hoop.

They do need a defensive C/PF. It’s a big hole on the roster still.

[Ayt]

Well I bullieve they should have made the playoffs last year and they added a lot talent imo. So playoffs yes, doing much more than the second round there? Nah.

But who wouldn't be happy with a

Lonzo
Lavine
Derozen
whomever
Vuc

Lavine is an all-star. Derozen and Vuc to varying levels are near all-stars. They're going to score a lot of points and be fun. They need like... a prime Draymond Green at PF in order to make it work for maybe a championship contender kinda stuff but hey this team is real fun and great and pretty young.

If lonzo can become decent shooter it could be good team we know DeRozan isn’t that guy.

Last year he shot 38% on 8.3 attempts. How is that not "decent." I'm not a huge Lonzo fan, but the idea that he can't shoot is outdated by two years.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

They basically traded away their future for a 31 year old Center with no defense. What do you think?

What future

I believe he is referring to the 2 FRP they traded which will likely be between 10-20. They players weren’t the future they would get but the draft assets to make another trade. Vuc is almost certainly better than what those picks would be but it does hamper future trades too. At best it is a wash imho. Vuc is also still on a good contract and is still tradable.

one already was the 8th pick

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[Ryoga Hibiki]

Not only do the Bulls want to become relevant, but if they are good, they are then 1 trade away from becoming a contender, with a big market and desirable future teammates for a star to join them. If Williams looks better he is a nice piece-CobyW not so much but could improve off ball

This is the part that I’m surprised so many supposedly knowledgeable posters on here don’t understand. So many people have been fed the narrative that the Bulls don’t have any assets which simply isn’t true. They have their pick in 22,24 and 26 onwards. They have Portland’s pick, and Coby White should get them back an interesting piece or two. This will not be the final form of the Bulls. The Bulls have a lot of ammo left in the chamber.

they can't trade those picks until they make the selection because of the Stepien rule, hence they can't package them together to get a top talent.
All can happen, but this is probably a horrible defensive team with no real great player in it. They don't have the assets to acquire the kind of player that would make them contenders

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[Michael Jackson]

What future

I believe he is referring to the 2 FRP they traded which will likely be between 10-20. They players weren’t the future they would get but the draft assets to make another trade. Vuc is almost certainly better than what those picks would be but it does hamper future trades too. At best it is a wash imho. Vuc is also still on a good contract and is still tradable.

one already was the 8th pick

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Yeah I was actually considering the DDR pick and forgot about Franz Wagner. That 8th pick kind of proves the point though. That pick wouldn't have made Zach leap for joy I am pretty sure. Nothing against Wagner but I doubt anyone thinks he is a franchise changing player.

[The Goonibomber]

Passing up the chance to get Nance was pretty damming and makes the team look unsure of their direction. You're focused enough on winning now that you'll sign aging Derozan for 30m a year and give up picks to do so - but when you have the chance to add an excellent role player all of a sudden you don't want to even risk paying the tax, and you prioritise picks instead?

It's borderline schizophrenic to throw financial caution and future asset management to the wind to take a huge gamble on Derozan, and then turn around and prioritise financial caution and future picks over taking a much smaller gamble on Nance.

Unfortunately this is kind of the camp I fall into, despite my Bulls’ fandom. Derrick Jones Jr. doesn’t have the potential to spell PW at the 4 does he? Iirc his defense looked…adequate…? last I watched him.

[ConSarnit]

They solved the initiator problem when they signed Lonzo (which again was a great move). It will be nice to have a guy that can get to the line and score in the mid range, but it just won't justify the losses on defense/spacing/offensive flow. LaVine was incredibly efficient last year (significantly more than DD) and part of the reason for that was having the keys to the offense/the luxury of finding his rhythm early and often. That changes with the addition of a high usage player like DeRozan.

DD's on/off has been negative in 11 of 12 seasons and all 6 of his playoff appearances. At a certain point I think we gotta accept the pattern for what it is- an indication that he's not a very impactful player. Trading Thad and a 1st for the right to overpay added insult to injury imo.

I see people still have this false believe that Lonzo is great initiator, which was on his scouting report when he was a rookie, but honestly he really isnt. He is good in transition, but in half court he is barely a point guard at all, he is surprisingly good off ball player. Bulls could start Demar of the bench, but anyhow, I imagine Demar will probably be their main ''point guard''/''point forward'' in the half court offense, he is easily their best playmaker in that setting. Those 3 perimeter players really aren't the problem in my opinion, I am more concerned with lack of rim protection and scarce big men rotation.

You can really tell who watches games and who doesn’t. Anyone that believes Lonzo is a lead guard or initiator has not watched him play over the past 4 years. His best role is as a ball mover in the half court and the guy that can rebound and lead the fast break. I think you nailed the Bulls offense. Let Derozan initiate in the half court. Lavine, Lonzo, Vucevic and Williams can all play off of him.

Lonzo created 0.94ppp in pnr sets last year. Those are decent numbers and huge jump from previous years. He's trending in the right direction. Maybe you need to watch more games.

[Bornstellar]

If the Bulls let DD run the offense as a de facto PG and have Lonzo as the secondary distributor I think they will be just fine. They are a mid-tier playoff team in the east, IMO, in the neighborhood of ATL/NYK/MIA

[Pointgod]

Not only do the Bulls want to become relevant, but if they are good, they are then 1 trade away from becoming a contender, with a big market and desirable future teammates for a star to join them. If Williams looks better he is a nice piece-CobyW not so much but could improve off ball

This is the part that I’m surprised so many supposedly knowledgeable posters on here don’t understand. So many people have been fed the narrative that the Bulls don’t have any assets which simply isn’t true. They have their pick in 22,24 and 26 onwards. They have Portland’s pick, and Coby White should get them back an interesting piece or two. This will not be the final form of the Bulls. The Bulls have a lot of ammo left in the chamber.

they can't trade those picks until they make the selection because of the Stepien rule, hence they can't package them together to get a top talent.
All can happen, but this is probably a horrible defensive team with no real great player in it. They don't have the assets to acquire the kind of player that would make them contenders

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Of course they can you just said they can wait until the draft. The Lakers just traded for Westbrook using the same logic. They can also go and ask Orlando to change the pick protection. Patrick Williams, White, 2 first round picks and 2 pick swaps plus either Lonzo, Derozan or Vucevic is enough to build a package around a superstar that would make Lavine a second option. Hell they could make a similar trade like the Suns made for Chris Paul very easily. Horrible defensive team is not supported by the numbers, just more talking points.

[Harry Garris]

Random comments:
- The team is almost completely turned over. There will only be 3 players returning from last year's opening day roster. Its really hard to look at last year's team as a projection for this year.
- Beyond that, they clearly used the first half of last year as an extended tryout, starting all of the young guys. Coby, Lavine, Pat, Lauri, Wendell. They got drilled night in and night out with the bench bringing the games back to respectability.
- Losing Thad hurt but he really didn't mesh well with Vucevic. They tried to play in the same spaces.
- After getting Vuc last year, Lavine was out with covid. There was very little sample size last year.
- What the team is trying to do and be is pretty obvious. They want to have a hub center like Denver (AK came from Denver) with 4 athletic, switchable guys who can shoot and handle the ball around him.
- The defense last year really wasn't as bad as people think it was, particularly when you excluded that young person group I mentioned.

On paper I think they are a top 4 team in the east talent wise. That said, its a bunch of career losers and 3rd bananas who have had much more box score success than wins. This is going to come down to health and coaching.

I can paint two extreme pictures.
Bad: The offense bogs down into Vucevic, DDR and Lavine pounding the ball in "my turn" type possessions. No player or ball movement killing efficiency. Lavine, Vuc and DDR just kill the defense and they end up winning less than 40 games in a much tougher east and miss the play in.
Good: With lots of ball handlers and shooters, the team swings it around and gets tons of easy looks on offense. On defense, they have a bunch of athletic guys and Donovan's help scheme makes it so they contest every good look such that they improve on their #12 defensive ranking post Vuc trade. 50+ wins.

Every sports podcast and talk show at the moment is making fun of this Bulls roster and how they're going to be the worst defense of all time right now. It's just this super simple minded way of thinking where they see Lavine, Derozan, and Vuc all in the same lineup and think oh 3 guys who aren't very good individual defenders must mean worst defense in the league, right?

Defense is so much more about the system and how much guys buy into it than it is about talent. I don't know how Derozan will fit with the group but the rest of the guys did buy in last year and the Bulls were good defensively despite not having a lot of strong defenders on the team. They have a couple of stud perimeter defenders who are switchable in Lonzo and Pat Williams and a smart drop big in Vuc who knows how to get to the right spots defensively. That's a solid framework to build off of. They'll be a league average defensive team with some upside and should be very much improved offensively.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don’t hate the roster, but I think Zach Lavine should be your 2nd best player if you want to make real noise, and Vucevic, And Derozan need to be a 3rd best guy or lower. It seems like an offense heavy cast tbh, and the guys aren’t transcendent talents on that end either.

I love Pat Williams though, maybe he emerges as the superstar that brings this all together.

[Ayt]

The over/under for the Bulls right now is 42.5 for people who like the roster. That could be relatively easy money if you believe in the team.

[cool007]

I don’t hate the roster, but I think Zach Lavine should be your 2nd best player if you want to make real noise, and Vucevic, And Derozan need to be a 3rd best guy or lower. It seems like an offense heavy cast tbh, and the guys aren’t transcendent talents on that end either.

I love Pat Williams though, maybe he emerges as the superstar that brings this all together.

People haven't seen much Lavine play but Lavine is definitely a 1st option on Offense as long as scoring/passing goes. He won't give you 8-10 assists or 8-10 rebounds every night but he can easily score 30+ if needed to. He was the 2nd best 4th qtr scorer last year behind Lillard. Problem was he was getting and at times tripled as every team knew you need to stop him and you can win. The thing is Lavine is very unselfish so he would pass it out and only to see mixed results (missed shot, turnover, etc) - that is the main reason why AKME went aftter Vuc and now Derozan so now it will be pretty damn difficult to double/triple Lavine now and Demar was one of other best at scoring in the clutch and one of the best at 1-on-1 scoring.

Let's see how it goes. I do put my money on Bulls to be a pretty damn good team (anywhere between 44 to 50 wins). It will work because all 3 of Lavine/DD/Vuc are unselfish players who are pretty good passers and make really good read when they are doubled.