Hoopshype's "20 Greatest PFs ever" list

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

hawkins, hayes, blake, bosh, kemp, amare, nance, oakley, willis, randolph, brand, boozer and even more all have cases over dray

[Warriors Analyst]

hawkins, hayes, blake, bosh, kemp, amare, nance, oakley, willis, randolph, brand, boozer and even more all have cases over dray

You can't be serious with Boozer and Z-Bo.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

hawkins, hayes, blake, bosh, kemp, amare, nance, oakley, willis, randolph, brand, boozer and even more all have cases over dray

You can't be serious with Boozer and Z-Bo.

you being a warriors fan is gonna make this tough but actually im deadly serious

modern day guys making 15-20 mil per should not be in the discussion for top anything for their position

he has been a wonderful #3-4 guy for you tho. couldnt have picked a better guy. lets not get carried away when we talk alltimers tho. like robert horry doesnt need to be on the list either despite all his undeniable contributions thru the years

[Patsfan1081]

hawkins, hayes, blake, bosh, kemp, amare, nance, oakley, willis, randolph, brand, boozer and even more all have cases over dray

You can't be serious with Boozer and Z-Bo.

He’s the better player but Z-Bo was underrated. Green only had one more all star appearance. I cant see Green in that top twenty with his current accolades, there are guys with double digit all star appearances that arent even mentioned.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

based off win shares and similarity scores heres draymonds nearest comps....

gordon hayward
lamar odom
nene
willis
laettner
boozer
dischinger
baker
wedmon
and a guy named red robbins

he had 3 very nice years but other than that hes been pretty lame out there by any metric

[HMFFL]

The impact Dennis Rodman had is far greater than the impact others ranked higher than him. Giannis Antetokounmpo could eventually be top 2.



Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[bubonicphoniks]

Davis too high. Aldridge too low.

[Sothron]

Tim Duncan played 63% of his career minutes at center and only 36% of his minutes at power forward. Pau Gasol played 69% of his minutes at center, and only 31% at power forward. Why do these guys count as power forwards and not centers?

This is true and why I don't consider either a PF. Compare that with guys like KG or CWebb.

[matt6715]

They have Pettit and McHale way too low. Dirk was nowhere near as good as them.

Dirk: 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 14x all-star, 4x all-NBA 1st team, 5x all-NBA 2nd team, 6th all time in points, 27th all time in rebounds.

McHale: 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVPs, 7x all-star, 1x all-NBA 1st team, 0x all-NBA 2nd team, 93rd all time in points, 114th all time in rebounds.

Yes, McHale has more defensive teams and more championships, but Dirk never played with a player nearly as good as Larry Bird, or had a supporting cast as good as McHale and Bird had, and all the other categories mean more than defensive teams.

What selective stats you put up there. Allow me to educate you.

Kevin McHale 3 time World Champion, 6 time All Defense, 2 time Sixth Man of the year plus 7 time All Star and a member of the Top 50 AND Top 75 teams. He was the best low post player in the history of the NBA. The only reason his personal scoring and rebounds are lower is because he played with Bird and Parish in the greatest frontcourt in the HISTORY of the NBA. Dirk also played longer than McHale did so of course their career points and rebound totals aren't going to be close.

As individual players it isn't even close who was better. McHale was ten times better on defense than Dirk was. McHale was a thousand times better in the low post than Dirk. I love Dirk Diggler but he's not on Kevin McHale's level. He's also not on Pettit's level either.

This guy just used 6th man of the year as a credential against an all-timer

[Sothron]

Dirk: 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 14x all-star, 4x all-NBA 1st team, 5x all-NBA 2nd team, 6th all time in points, 27th all time in rebounds.

McHale: 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVPs, 7x all-star, 1x all-NBA 1st team, 0x all-NBA 2nd team, 93rd all time in points, 114th all time in rebounds.

Yes, McHale has more defensive teams and more championships, but Dirk never played with a player nearly as good as Larry Bird, or had a supporting cast as good as McHale and Bird had, and all the other categories mean more than defensive teams.

What selective stats you put up there. Allow me to educate you.

Kevin McHale 3 time World Champion, 6 time All Defense, 2 time Sixth Man of the year plus 7 time All Star and a member of the Top 50 AND Top 75 teams. He was the best low post player in the history of the NBA. The only reason his personal scoring and rebounds are lower is because he played with Bird and Parish in the greatest frontcourt in the HISTORY of the NBA. Dirk also played longer than McHale did so of course their career points and rebound totals aren't going to be close.

As individual players it isn't even close who was better. McHale was ten times better on defense than Dirk was. McHale was a thousand times better in the low post than Dirk. I love Dirk Diggler but he's not on Kevin McHale's level. He's also not on Pettit's level either.

This guy just used 6th man of the year as a credential against an all-timer

Yes, McHale came off the bench early and then later in his career because the Celtics had Bird at PF and Cedric Maxwell, he's a Finals MVP you probably don't know what that is, playing SF so McHale as a rookie then young player didn't have a chance to start. Once he got into the starting lineup it was obvious how amazing he was with the extra minutes. There's a reason why that team is considered the greatest front court in NBA history. Get back to me when any team Dirk was ever on had a frontcourt that stacked that forced him to wait his turn.

[Sofia]

Duncan is a center..

Hmm yeah if they're going to list Bosh as a Center they sure as **** have to list Duncan as one lol

Bosh is closer to a SF than a C. That's dumb.

What?

Basketball reference says Bosh spent 3% of his second season at SF, and 0% every other season.

He had 10 seasons where he played C more than 50% of the time, and 5 of them over 90% at C.

[TheLand13]

hawkins, hayes, blake, bosh, kemp, amare, nance, oakley, willis, randolph, brand, boozer and even more all have cases over dray

You can't be serious with Boozer and Z-Bo.

you being a warriors fan is gonna make this tough but actually im deadly serious

modern day guys making 15-20 mil per should not be in the discussion for top anything for their position

he has been a wonderful #3-4 guy for you tho. couldnt have picked a better guy. lets not get carried away when we talk alltimers tho. like robert horry doesnt need to be on the list either despite all his undeniable contributions thru the years

Carlos Boozer does not have an argument over Draymond. Just stop.

[NZB2323]

They have Pettit and McHale way too low. Dirk was nowhere near as good as them.

Dirk: 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 14x all-star, 4x all-NBA 1st team, 5x all-NBA 2nd team, 6th all time in points, 27th all time in rebounds.

McHale: 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVPs, 7x all-star, 1x all-NBA 1st team, 0x all-NBA 2nd team, 93rd all time in points, 114th all time in rebounds.

Yes, McHale has more defensive teams and more championships, but Dirk never played with a player nearly as good as Larry Bird, or had a supporting cast as good as McHale and Bird had, and all the other categories mean more than defensive teams.

What selective stats you put up there. Allow me to educate you.

Kevin McHale 3 time World Champion, 6 time All Defense, 2 time Sixth Man of the year plus 7 time All Star and a member of the Top 50 AND Top 75 teams. He was the best low post player in the history of the NBA. The only reason his personal scoring and rebounds are lower is because he played with Bird and Parish in the greatest frontcourt in the HISTORY of the NBA. Dirk also played longer than McHale did so of course their career points and rebound totals aren't going to be close.

As individual players it isn't even close who was better. McHale was ten times better on defense than Dirk was. McHale was a thousand times better in the low post than Dirk. I love Dirk Diggler but he's not on Kevin McHale's level. He's also not on Pettit's level either.

Yeah man, MVP and Finals MVP mean a hell of a lot more than 6th man of the year.

McHale is better at defense and better in the low post, but Dirk was a much better all around scorer.

Yes, he got to play in the greatest frontcourt in the history of the NBA, and Larry Bird, a top 10 player of all time. Who is the best teammate Dirk ever had? Bird is one of the greatest passers in NBA history, McHale benefitted from that, and other teams game plans focused on Bird. When teams were playing the Mavs, their game plans focused on Dirk. McHale also benefitted from Bird and Parish being great at boxing out, and attacking the rim so we could get more rebounds.

You say McHale would have more points without Bird, but when he played without him in 93 he averaged 11 points per game. You can say he was 35, but when Dirk was 35 he averaged 22 points per game and made an all-star team.

Dirk playing longer and having longevity gives Dirk an argument. Would you rather have 13 years of McHale or 21 years of Dirk?

[Warriors Analyst]

hawkins, hayes, blake, bosh, kemp, amare, nance, oakley, willis, randolph, brand, boozer and even more all have cases over dray

You can't be serious with Boozer and Z-Bo.

you being a warriors fan is gonna make this tough but actually im deadly serious

modern day guys making 15-20 mil per should not be in the discussion for top anything for their position

he has been a wonderful #3-4 guy for you tho. couldnt have picked a better guy. lets not get carried away when we talk alltimers tho. like robert horry doesnt need to be on the list either despite all his undeniable contributions thru the years

There is 0 justification for Boozer or Z-Bo being up there over Draymond. Later in the thread you claim he's been "lame" by any metric for most of his career outside of 3 years, which I assume you mean 2014-2017. That's simply silly. Draymond's defensive contributions have been incredible for most of his career. He's arguably one of the 10 best playoff performers of the past decade, his defensive prowess has lifted defenses that should be mediocre at best to top 5 levels, and he's pretty much singularly responsible for the death of the power forward. What did Boozer do, exactly? What Z-Bo do that trumps that?

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

You can't be serious with Boozer and Z-Bo.

you being a warriors fan is gonna make this tough but actually im deadly serious

modern day guys making 15-20 mil per should not be in the discussion for top anything for their position

he has been a wonderful #3-4 guy for you tho. couldnt have picked a better guy. lets not get carried away when we talk alltimers tho. like robert horry doesnt need to be on the list either despite all his undeniable contributions thru the years

Carlos Boozer does not have an argument over Draymond. Just stop.

i was talking about bob boozer

i wasnt but honestly it could have been either. dray imo is one of the most overrated pf's of all time. hes had like 1 great year, 2 solid ones, and the rest have literally not even been worth the peanuts hes been making. facts is fact but for several years in his prime making far less than max he was considered a bad contract. how he could make anybodys list which such a short window and a winshare that peaked at 11 is beyond me.

[Maxthirty]

Draymond should be ahead of Rodman.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

You can't be serious with Boozer and Z-Bo.

you being a warriors fan is gonna make this tough but actually im deadly serious

modern day guys making 15-20 mil per should not be in the discussion for top anything for their position

he has been a wonderful #3-4 guy for you tho. couldnt have picked a better guy. lets not get carried away when we talk alltimers tho. like robert horry doesnt need to be on the list either despite all his undeniable contributions thru the years

There is 0 justification for Boozer or Z-Bo being up there over Draymond. Later in the thread you claim he's been "lame" by any metric for most of his career outside of 3 years, which I assume you mean 2014-2017. That's simply silly. Draymond's defensive contributions have been incredible for most of his career. He's arguably one of the 10 best playoff performers of the past decade, his defensive prowess has lifted defenses that should be mediocre at best to top 5 levels, and he's pretty much singularly responsible for the death of the power forward. What did Boozer do, exactly? What Z-Bo do that trumps that?

boozer and zbo have him on longevity and a decade long resume of success being the featured guys on thier teams.

im not saying theyre better but looking at winshares and vorp which i value quite a bit we can definitely evaluate tiers.

all im definitively saying is dray is in that crowd..... the 25-50 top pfs of all time where all sorts of similar names show up.

the guy youre trying to make him out to be is dennis rodman. hes the only pf in history that had that bill russell type of affect your trying to paint onto draymond..... but dray is a toy version of dennis. they arent in the same universe

[alevirfe]

KG > Dirk > Malone

also, I understand Draymond being on the list but they are overvaluing championships. in his best year, here are Draymond's numbers:
11 / 7.6 / 7.3 / 1.3 /1.4 shooting 45%

[Sothron]

Dirk: 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 14x all-star, 4x all-NBA 1st team, 5x all-NBA 2nd team, 6th all time in points, 27th all time in rebounds.

McHale: 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVPs, 7x all-star, 1x all-NBA 1st team, 0x all-NBA 2nd team, 93rd all time in points, 114th all time in rebounds.

Yes, McHale has more defensive teams and more championships, but Dirk never played with a player nearly as good as Larry Bird, or had a supporting cast as good as McHale and Bird had, and all the other categories mean more than defensive teams.

What selective stats you put up there. Allow me to educate you.

Kevin McHale 3 time World Champion, 6 time All Defense, 2 time Sixth Man of the year plus 7 time All Star and a member of the Top 50 AND Top 75 teams. He was the best low post player in the history of the NBA. The only reason his personal scoring and rebounds are lower is because he played with Bird and Parish in the greatest frontcourt in the HISTORY of the NBA. Dirk also played longer than McHale did so of course their career points and rebound totals aren't going to be close.

As individual players it isn't even close who was better. McHale was ten times better on defense than Dirk was. McHale was a thousand times better in the low post than Dirk. I love Dirk Diggler but he's not on Kevin McHale's level. He's also not on Pettit's level either.

Yeah man, MVP and Finals MVP mean a hell of a lot more than 6th man of the year.

McHale is better at defense and better in the low post, but Dirk was a much better all around scorer.

Yes, he got to play in the greatest frontcourt in the history of the NBA, and Larry Bird, a top 10 player of all time. Who is the best teammate Dirk ever had? Bird is one of the greatest passers in NBA history, McHale benefitted from that, and other teams game plans focused on Bird. When teams were playing the Mavs, their game plans focused on Dirk. McHale also benefitted from Bird and Parish being great at boxing out, and attacking the rim so we could get more rebounds.

You say McHale would have more points without Bird, but when he played without him in 93 he averaged 11 points per game. You can say he was 35, but when Dirk was 35 he averaged 22 points per game and made an all-star team.

Dirk playing longer and having longevity gives Dirk an argument. Would you rather have 13 years of McHale or 21 years of Dirk?

13 years of McHale. You probably are too young to know this but McHale's career changed forever when he got a broken foot and played on it when he was told to get surgery. He wanted to repeat as world champions in 1987 so badly he played on it the rest of the regular season and playoffs playing major minutes. He was never the same player after that. He's admitted he made a mistake doing that because he was never the same player. So when you mention McHale at 35 only getting 11 points that was his last season and coming off the bench because his body was shot with injuries. They didn't have anything close to modern medicine and training back when McHale played.

So you have to take that into account. Plus the fact Dirk started his career earlier than McHale because back then you had to go to college and stay at least to your junior season with some very rare cases. I am blessed to have watched both players their entire NBA careers since I started watching the NBA in 1979. Kevin McHale is one of the most underrated and underappreciated superstar players ever. If he played on another team he would have easily averaged 30 and 12 with 3 blocks on excellent shooting numbers. Bird has said multiple times that he knows he kept McHale's scoring down and that if he played somewhere else his numbers would have been video game material. But since they were all unselfish and played together well they became the greatest front court in NBA history. That's only PARTLY due to Bird I might add. I watched those teams. McHale and Parish were amazing in their own right.

I love Dirk Diggler. I rooted for him almost every year they were in the playoffs. But he wasn't as good as McHale was. Dirk was not a good defender and McHale was fantastic as a defender until his foot injury. Did you know the Celtics actually had McHale guard the opposing team's best wing player? That's right. Bird guarded the worst offensive player because the refs didn't call illegal defense a lot and it let Bird play free safety while McHale, alone, had to guard the best wing players in the NBA every night. There's a reason he earned those All Defense teams. Dirk is so much worse than McHale on defense it is like comparing Pippen to Carmelo. That huge difference on defense and also the fact McHale was the best low post player EVER in the NBA is why he's just a better player than Dirk was. The only thing I would give Dirk a nod over McHale was three point shooting. McHale had a great jumper but he was needed more in the post so he didn't get to shoot like they did in modern NBA games.

[Egg Nog]

Wow, so much hate for Bobby Jones in this thread...or more likely just ignorance.

The guy was all-defensive 1st team for a decade straight while being very efficient on offense. The ultimate team player. People want to exclude him because he wasn't a first option...LOL...