OT: Bonds & Clemens Miss HOF

[Cactus Jack]

Everyone focuses on offensive production. Which is understandable. But Griff's defense as the premier CF puts him in the conversation for goat. I've never seen a better two way player. Was he the best player of the 90's? Yes, he was.

Certainly the most un-appreciated superstar of my lifetime, Bonds, Biggio, and Henderson the three most unappreciated. Probably the second- or third-best hitter among the 100 listed left fielders (behind Williams and perhaps Musial), probably the third-best baserunner (behind Henderson and Raines), probably the best defensive left fielder. Griffey has always been more popular, but Bonds has been a far, far greater player. The ten best players of the 1990s:

1. Barry Bonds
2. Craig Biggio
3. Frank Thomas
4. Ken Griffey Jr.
5. Jeff Bagwell
6. Rafael Palmeiro
7. Barry Larkin
8. Roberto Alomar
9. Mark McGwire
10. Greg Maddux

Biggio & Thomas both good players. But them being ranked ahead of Ken on that list is a joke.

[dhsilv2]

A healthy Ken Griffey Jr would be in the conversation for that. And he wasn't juicing.

Griffey had a 56% chance to break Henry Aaron's 755 home runs after the 2000 season, using this: https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/billjames/_/age/29/careertotal/438/yearone/48/yeartwo/56/yearthree/56/goal/756

That said, Griffey was never going to be the greatest hitter of all time. Hell, he wasn't even the best hitter/player of the 1990's, and wasn't even close. Ironically, Barry Bonds was:

Bonds 1990-1999:
-OPS+: 179
-HR: 361
-Stolen Bases: 343
-Wins Above Replacement (WAR): 80.2 (that ALONE is HOF level)
-3 MVP's (5 top 5 MVP finishes)
-8 Gold Gloves in left field

Ken Griffey, Jr. 1990-1999:
-OPS+: 152
-HR: 383
-Stolen Bases: 151
-WAR: 67.5
-1 MVP (5 top 5 MVP finishes)
-10 Gold Gloves in center field

Griffey was killer in the playoffs: .305/.382/.644 with 6 HR in 15 games. But still, that's only 15 games. He never made the World Series.

Everyone focuses on offensive production. Which is understandable. But Griff's defense as the premier CF puts him in the conversation for goat. I've never seen a better two way player. Was he the best player of the 90's? Yes, he was.

Left field isn't as important but when bond's was smaller, he wasn't far off of Griffy as a fielder. They both have a case for being the best fielder at their position at their best.

[NYPiston]

It's a crock of ****.

Papi got in because he's a nicer guy than Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod. It's about "feelings" with a lot of these voters as opposed to judging them solely as a player. Bonds and Clemens were 1st ballot HOFers, all time greats, BEFORE the Steroid era. It makes the Hall look like a complete joke.

[ty 4191]

Biggio & Thomas both good players. But them being ranked ahead of Ken on that list is a joke.

Well, you certainly have spent (far) more time studying the game of baseball than Bill James.

It's not like he's arguably the most influential person in baseball the last 45 years, or anything...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_James

[NYPiston]

It is harsh not seeing some of the greatest I've seen play not get in, but they got busted and are paying the piper, that doesn't mean they don't deserve it though. They were household names in America at least.

Ortiz got busted and he's in on the first ballot. A far inferior player to Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod. It's about personal bias against those guys.

[shakes0]

Frank doesn't pass the "100% clean" eye test for me, and I loved him as a player. I'd be shocked if he wasn't juicing too.

But anyway, Bonds was the better player, and it isn't close.

Bonds:
Career fWAR: 164.4
Career wRC+: 173

Thomas:
Career fWAR: 72.1
Career wRC+: 154

Frank Thomas had an all-time great career. Bonds had a case for GOAT.

you lose ALL credibility when you say Frank doesn't pass the 100% clean test in your eyes. If there was a single player in all of baseball who was clean it was Frank Thomas. Go read Slicebread's post, he gives a great recap of how Frank was the only anti-steroid player in the entire league for a long time.

Bonds was not better player. Bonds was a better juicer. Frank was a better hitter.

Who knows though. I personally can’t say with 100% certainty that Griffey wasn’t juicing. It’s just an impossible statement to make

not for Frank though. Slicebread's post explains how Frank was the only player back then who advocated for testing. He is also the only player to agree to testify in the Mitchell Report. No one can claim to be more clean than Frank.

[Cactus Jack]

Biggio & Thomas both good players. But them being ranked ahead of Ken on that list is a joke.

Well, you certainly have spent (far) more time studying the game of baseball than Bill James.

It's not like he's arguably the most influential person in baseball the last 45 years, or anything...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_James

I don't need Bill James' opinion on the matter. My eyes are the best indicator. Bill might want to use his.

Frank Thomas was outstanding with the bat. But he was primarily a 1st Baseman/DH throughout his career. Providing little to no defensive value over time.

Did he contribute more to the game than Ken? Simply no.

Honestly, I really do question anyone & their Baseball knowledge, who shares that take.

[kg01]

It's a crock of ****.

Papi got in because he's a nicer guy than Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod. It's about "feelings" with a lot of these voters as opposed to judging them solely as a player. Bonds and Clemens were 1st ballot HOFers, all time greats, BEFORE the Steroid era. It makes the Hall look like a complete joke.

Makes a major case for why media shouldn't have the power to hold this over players' heads. The measure of their careers should not come down to which writer's a** they kissed.

Just another example that the field of "journalism" is dead. Them dudes are supposed to be neutral, not part of the story.

[ty 4191]

Biggio & Thomas both good players. But them being ranked ahead of Ken on that list is a joke.

Well, you certainly have spent (far) more time studying the game of baseball than Bill James.

It's not like he's arguably the most influential person in baseball the last 45 years, or anything...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_James

I don't need Bill James' opinion on the matter. My eyes are the best indicator. Bill might want to use his.

Frank Thomas was outstanding with the bat. But he was primarily a 1st Baseman/DH throughout his career. Providing little to no defensive value over time.

Did he contribute more to the game than Ken? Simply no.

Honestly, I really do question anyone & their Baseball knowledge, who shares that take.

So your eyes know better than all the experts who study and analyze baseball for a living? As a whole? That's not arrogant or myopic, at all....

The Sporting News named Bonds the Player Of The Decade for the 1990's. Name a most respected and hallowed organization the The Sporting News in baseball. Go for it.

Bonds BURIES Griffey, Jr. in every single total player evaluation metric for that entire decade. Name any of them. Name all of them. Bonds was more valuable.

Oh, but you know better than every statistic, every/all sportswriters. Based on......absolutely nothing. "Because I said so."

Solipsism at its finest.

Name one other incredibly renowned BBWAA sportswriter that chose Griffey Jr. over Bonds during the 1990's.

[Cactus Jack]

Well, you certainly have spent (far) more time studying the game of baseball than Bill James.

It's not like he's arguably the most influential person in baseball the last 45 years, or anything...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_James

I don't need Bill James' opinion on the matter. My eyes are the best indicator. Bill might want to use his.

Frank Thomas was outstanding with the bat. But he was primarily a 1st Baseman/DH throughout his career. Providing little to no defensive value over time.

Did he contribute more to the game than Ken? Simply no.

Honestly, I really do question anyone & their Baseball knowledge, who shares that take.

So your eyes know better than all the experts who study and analyze baseball for a living? As a whole? That's not arrogant or myopic, at all....

The Sporting News named Bonds the Player Of The Decade for the 1990's. Name a most respected and hallowed organization the The Sporting News in baseball. Go for it.

Bonds BURIES Griffey, Jr. in every single total player evaluation metric for that entire decade. Name any of them. Name all of them. Bonds was more valuable.

Oh, but you know better than every statistic, every/all sportswriters. Based on......absolutely nothing. "Because I said so."

Solipsism at its finest.

Name one other incredibly renowned BBWAA sportswriter that chose Griffey Jr. over Bonds during the 1990's.

Both Barry & Junior we're worthy of consideration.

However, it is my opinion having watched him up close for so many years that Griff was the better player. If you have a different opinion than fine.

Throwing out a list that Bill James put together isn't going to sway an opinion one way or the other.

Was Frank Thomas a better player? No.

Biggio? I can't imagine many would share that opinion.

[Marty McFly]

He wasn’t even the best hitter of his era. Frank Thomas was a better hitter and when comparing the two you absolutely have to put an asterisk next to Bonds since Frank was 100% clean.

You're argument is conditional on the basis of your fandom. Pre-juice Bonds and Frank Thomas had comparable numbers, so to flat-out say Bonds wasn't even the best hitter in his era, whilst adding an asterisk to his juicing era shows an argument in bad faith.

all of these guys did something for a competitive advantage. Whether they were caught or not. Never mind the fact that Thomas was just a bigger man. he had that advantage.

you said about 5 things and each one of them was more nonsensical than the one before. Steroids were an unfair advantage, but Frank had an unfair advantage as well because he was big?

You even said it yourself, they had comparable numbers. But one did it with steroids and one did it clean. Not hard to see who is the better player in that scenario.

bro, you're a child. imagine being this much of a dweeb all the while the person your defending is already in the hall. god damn.

[Ballerhogger]

Good. Cheated the game shouldnt be allowed in. Numbers can be hollow as well.

[Ballerhogger]

It's a crock of ****.

Papi got in because he's a nicer guy than Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod. It's about "feelings" with a lot of these voters as opposed to judging them solely as a player. Bonds and Clemens were 1st ballot HOFers, all time greats, BEFORE the Steroid era. It makes the Hall look like a complete joke.

They are held to the standard of every other hof. Its fair.

[slicedbread2]

It's a crock of ****.

Papi got in because he's a nicer guy than Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod. It's about "feelings" with a lot of these voters as opposed to judging them solely as a player. Bonds and Clemens were 1st ballot HOFers, all time greats, BEFORE the Steroid era. It makes the Hall look like a complete joke.

They are held to the standard of every other hof. Its fair.

Absolutely. Bonds was practically a prince in baseball long before becoming a pro himself. His Father Bobby Bonds had 300hrs and 400sbs along with 1800 hits, his godfather is Willie Mays and according to baseball reference he's the cousin of Mr. October Reggie Jackson. Barry had everything needed to get into the hall, but he let his insecurities get to him in the end and it's a shame, but the BALCO connection didn't help. Being a prick going back to his Arizona State days didn't help plus being surly towards teammates and the media made it worse.

As for A-Rod, he came clean and admitted he was doping during his time in Texas so if he had just had that stain, then he'd be in the hall but not on the 1st ballot. The biogenesis scandal has put doubt over A-Rod's whole career now and I don't think he'll ever get in simply because of that. A shame really because yes he was a prick at times although he has since rehabbed his image quite a bit by being an excellent baseball analysis but that scandal will really hurt him going forward.

Curt Schilling was done not because of his accomplishments, but because of the mass xenophobia he has displayed over the years and the hall of fame wasn't gonna let in someone with his off the field track record(displaying bigotry towards Muslims in particular). To me his bitterness comes from the fact that he was exposed as a two faced hypocrite who advocated against government handouts, but didn't hesitate to take them. In that case it was his failed gaming company 38 studios that took subsidies from the Rhode Island government and failed miserably.

As for next year's ballot it'll be interesting. Carlos Beltran could've been a 1st ballot HOF, but he was the central figurehead in the Astros cheating scandal so I don't expect him to get in so easily if ever. Maybe Scott Rolen and Todd Helton will get in next year.

[Duke4life831]

Here's the thing, if youre going to go with the whole "you took PEDs youre not getting in thing". Fine I don't agree with it but you better hold strong on that stance then. Because once you let one in, what is the reason for not letting the others in?

This is the issue with letting Big Papi in. He popped, so why does he get in when the others dont? The only possible reason is because sports writers and media liked his personality more. Because lets be real, Ortiz wasn't that good of a player until he got to Boston and started juicing.

So ya now its not longer guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and so on arent in because they got caught juicing. They're not in because the sports writers didnt like them personally. That makes it an even bigger joke.

[Duke4life831]

Absolutely not. They wouldn’t have been nearly as good if they weren’t juicing. And they took away from the guys who didn’t cheat. I grew up a White Sox fan and we had Frank Thomas who was completely clean and still put up amazing numbers. I always wondered just how much higher he would’ve been in the record books if he didn’t have to compete vs juicers.

Screw Bonds and Clemens. they were good enough to still be great if they didn’t cheat.

With all due respect, Shakes, how do you know he was clean?

Frank was far and away the most vocal player back then in terms of guys speaking out against steroids. If there’s one guy who didn’t juice back then it was definitely Frank Thomas.

I mean if we go by this standard, Lance Armstrong was the cleanest bike rider up until 2012. All he would do was talk about how bad dopers are back in the day and up until he get caught.

[Ballerhogger]

Here's the thing, if youre going to go with the whole "you took PEDs youre not getting in thing". Fine I don't agree with it but you better hold strong on that stance then. Because once you let one in, what is the reason for not letting the others in?

This is the issue with letting Big Papi in. He popped, so why does he get in when the others dont? The only possible reason is because sports writers and media liked his personality more. Because lets be real, Ortiz wasn't that good of a player until he got to Boston and started juicing.

So ya now its not longer guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and so on arent in because they got caught juicing. They're not in because the sports writers didnt like them personally. That makes it an even bigger joke.

https://www.businessinsider.com/david-ortiz-cheating-essay-2015-3

hes never taken PEDs from his mouth

[MalonesElbows]

Nope, if you put him in a player that did it right gets denied.

[Duke4life831]

Here's the thing, if youre going to go with the whole "you took PEDs youre not getting in thing". Fine I don't agree with it but you better hold strong on that stance then. Because once you let one in, what is the reason for not letting the others in?

This is the issue with letting Big Papi in. He popped, so why does he get in when the others dont? The only possible reason is because sports writers and media liked his personality more. Because lets be real, Ortiz wasn't that good of a player until he got to Boston and started juicing.

So ya now its not longer guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and so on arent in because they got caught juicing. They're not in because the sports writers didnt like them personally. That makes it an even bigger joke.

https://www.businessinsider.com/david-ortiz-cheating-essay-2015-3

hes never taken PEDs from his mouth

Ya not too crazy to have guys deny they took PEDs. Sometimes the most obvious answer is the answer. 20 HRs and 75 RBIs was Ortiz best stats before going to Boston. He goes to Boston (with other known PED users), his name is on the list of the 100 players that popped for some kind of PED, and right away he is 5th in MVP voting and he becomes a superstar.

To be clear I think practically everyone was juicing back then and I do think Ortiz should be in the HOF. But ya just because he says he didnt take them, doesnt mean Im going to go on his word for it.

[theonlyclutch]

Here's the thing, if youre going to go with the whole "you took PEDs youre not getting in thing". Fine I don't agree with it but you better hold strong on that stance then. Because once you let one in, what is the reason for not letting the others in?

This is the issue with letting Big Papi in. He popped, so why does he get in when the others dont? The only possible reason is because sports writers and media liked his personality more. Because lets be real, Ortiz wasn't that good of a player until he got to Boston and started juicing.

So ya now its not longer guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and so on arent in because they got caught juicing. They're not in because the sports writers didnt like them personally. That makes it an even bigger joke.

https://www.businessinsider.com/david-ortiz-cheating-essay-2015-3

hes never taken PEDs from his mouth

He was literally punished by the league for taking PEDs while Bonds wasn't.