WORST ALL STAR STARTER! BJ Armstrong or Andrew Wiggins

[CobraCommander]

Wiggins has basically matched or exceeded the typical Klay Thompson season.

So if Wiggins is unworthy, then Klay is extremely overrated with his 5 all star appearances.

[MAMBAOUT24]

I know he was not a starter, but the worst All-Star I've ever seen in all my 30+ years following the NBA was... Jamaal Magloire.

How does he compare to Mo Williams?

Mo was an All-Star averaging 18/3/4 with 44% 3pt shooting. Not out of this world numbers, but similar to other players over the years, like Conley last year.

Magloire averaged 14/10 + 1.2 blocks in a team which finished .500. Weirdly enough, that New Orleans Hornets team had TWO All-Stars (Baron Davis was the other).

Just imagine the inumerable threads we would have today if a .500 team had 2 All-Stars...

Well we have Brown and Tatum running to the all star game on a .500 team

[dhsilv2]

The beauty/flaw in using stats is that you can pick-and-choose which ones you use to support your case online.

There are so many available stats in the modern NBA. The ones I chose are pretty basic, but long used as a cursory look when comparing players for decades. Do some people find them pretty elementary and flawed? Sure. And in some ways they are.

So feel free to pick-and-choose whatever stats you'd like to use to support your case that Booker would be an undeserving All Star.



The key, however, is to actually use those stats instead of simply complaining about other posters using stats that you don't like.

But I'm not the one picking and choosing. They all tell the story that Curry is better when you provide them all. Instead you cut out half or more of the box score stats from each player. You didn't tell me even how many field goals and free throws they take. So no you CAN'T pick and chose. You either look at them all or you don't.

What your stats completely skew is that we don't see that one of these guys takes a LOT more of those 37%+ 3's and thus is an above average efficiency scorer while the other guy is slightly below average. Meanwhile the assist gap here alone pretty much makes the second player a pretty obvious better player, even here.

It isn't like there are stats showing booker is better than Curry or similar even. PER is about as close a metric as it gets and it's still a full point gap.

What you did was intentionally present a misleading incompletely set of data. That's being dishonest. If I'd looked up booker and he was rocking a top 15 impact set of stats, had a BPM near 6 or more, a WS/48 .15+, or had higher volume scoring to where we could account for it elsewhere. Heck if you could argue there was a huge gap in talent on the two teams...ok lets talk. I honestly was surprised by how far the gap between booker and curry was because honestly, I have thought booker looked good in the games I saw and I assumed the Sun's strong play had to be heavy on him. Turns out...it's still CP3 doing the leg work on paper.

I know you didn't pick and choose stats.

You simply didn't use any at all. And then ripped on the guy who did.

See the difference?







[Note: Thanks for posting some stats now though. I think most/all of us would agree that Curry is the more influential player, despite a similarity in cursory stats. Now, for your next act, can you share some stats that support your doubt in Booker as an All Star reserve as you initially claimed? I'm pretty sure you'll be able to... but the stats would definitely help support what could be deemed as a bit of an outlier take.]

I didn't post stats because they all tell the same story...I assume everyone here knows this which is why I didn't bother. If you want Curry is night and day better in

WS/48
BPM
RAPTOR
EPM
LEBRON


He's better in but by not a huge gap, still meaningful

PER
PIE (nba.com's dumb box metric) thinks they both suck but a pretty big edge Curry 15.4 vs 13.2

Raw box shows again Curry scoring more on less attempts while generating more assists. Curry turns the ball over a bit more and their rebounds are nearly the same but edge booker. Curry also generates more steals.

I don't want to get into play type defense but in general Booker is better in iso but worse in most other rotation type settings, and both guys are in iso about 8% of the time so not a super material one.

We can get into lesser know tracked stats (hustle stats)

Screen assists 1.4 vs 0.5 edge Curry 3.1 vs 1.1 points per game generated from these.

Deflections 2.3 vs 1.6 per game edge curry

Offensive loose balls recovered 0.6 vs 0.5 edge Curry

Defensive loose balls recovered 0.5 vs 0.6 edge booker

Charges Drawn (edge curry but it's basically 1 total vs 0 lol)

Contested shots - pretty big edge Booker 6 vs 4.3, not sure what that tells me as sometimes people shoot more against you if you're bad, other times it's a sign of active defense. But don't want to leave these stats out.

secondary assists Curry 1.2 booker 0.5

Assist points created Curry 15.4 booker 11.0

I'm sure you could find so many random stats that we'd eventually see areas where booker is better. I think he's scoring more in the clutch for example, but you start getting into a lot of really small sample sizes. I think when he contests a shot I saw he was like .3% better.

[dhsilv2]

some more options
Dale Davis
AC Green

What years were they starters?

[dhsilv2]

I know he was not a starter, but the worst All-Star I've ever seen in all my 30+ years following the NBA was... Jamaal Magloire.

I was going to post exactly this name.

And this was why we moved to front court vs back court for selections.

[Jadoogar]

some more options
Dale Davis
AC Green

What years were they starters?

AC Green was a starter in 1990 (along with Stockton, Magic, James Worthy and Olajuwon)
misspoke on Dale Davis, he was on the team in 2000 but didn't start.

[AbeVigodaLive]

But I'm not the one picking and choosing. They all tell the story that Curry is better when you provide them all. Instead you cut out half or more of the box score stats from each player. You didn't tell me even how many field goals and free throws they take. So no you CAN'T pick and chose. You either look at them all or you don't.

What your stats completely skew is that we don't see that one of these guys takes a LOT more of those 37%+ 3's and thus is an above average efficiency scorer while the other guy is slightly below average. Meanwhile the assist gap here alone pretty much makes the second player a pretty obvious better player, even here.

It isn't like there are stats showing booker is better than Curry or similar even. PER is about as close a metric as it gets and it's still a full point gap.

What you did was intentionally present a misleading incompletely set of data. That's being dishonest. If I'd looked up booker and he was rocking a top 15 impact set of stats, had a BPM near 6 or more, a WS/48 .15+, or had higher volume scoring to where we could account for it elsewhere. Heck if you could argue there was a huge gap in talent on the two teams...ok lets talk. I honestly was surprised by how far the gap between booker and curry was because honestly, I have thought booker looked good in the games I saw and I assumed the Sun's strong play had to be heavy on him. Turns out...it's still CP3 doing the leg work on paper.

I know you didn't pick and choose stats.

You simply didn't use any at all. And then ripped on the guy who did.

See the difference?







[Note: Thanks for posting some stats now though. I think most/all of us would agree that Curry is the more influential player, despite a similarity in cursory stats. Now, for your next act, can you share some stats that support your doubt in Booker as an All Star reserve as you initially claimed? I'm pretty sure you'll be able to... but the stats would definitely help support what could be deemed as a bit of an outlier take.]

I didn't post stats because they all tell the same story...I assume everyone here knows this which is why I didn't bother. If you want Curry is night and day better in

WS/48
BPM
RAPTOR
EPM
LEBRON


He's better in but by not a huge gap, still meaningful

PER
PIE (nba.com's dumb box metric) thinks they both suck but a pretty big edge Curry 15.4 vs 13.2

Raw box shows again Curry scoring more on less attempts while generating more assists. Curry turns the ball over a bit more and their rebounds are nearly the same but edge booker. Curry also generates more steals.

I don't want to get into play type defense but in general Booker is better in iso but worse in most other rotation type settings, and both guys are in iso about 8% of the time so not a super material one.

We can get into lesser know tracked stats (hustle stats)

Screen assists 1.4 vs 0.5 edge Curry 3.1 vs 1.1 points per game generated from these.

Deflections 2.3 vs 1.6 per game edge curry

Offensive loose balls recovered 0.6 vs 0.5 edge Curry

Defensive loose balls recovered 0.5 vs 0.6 edge booker

Charges Drawn (edge curry but it's basically 1 total vs 0 lol)

Contested shots - pretty big edge Booker 6 vs 4.3, not sure what that tells me as sometimes people shoot more against you if you're bad, other times it's a sign of active defense. But don't want to leave these stats out.

secondary assists Curry 1.2 booker 0.5

Assist points created Curry 15.4 booker 11.0

I'm sure you could find so many random stats that we'd eventually see areas where booker is better. I think he's scoring more in the clutch for example, but you start getting into a lot of really small sample sizes. I think when he contests a shot I saw he was like .3% better.

Stats... nice! But we already acknowledged that Curry is better. Literally nobody is disagreeing on this.

Any stats you can share to show that Booker might not be all star worthy... as I had asked before you added all the Curry stats?



[Note: Again, there might be. But it's your take, so it's up to you to support it.]

[JujitsuFlip]

Duplicate, please delete.

[dhsilv2]

some more options
Dale Davis
AC Green

What years were they starters?

AC Green was a starter in 1990 (along with Stockton, Magic, James Worthy and Olajuwon)
misspoke on Dale Davis, he was on the team in 2000 but didn't start.

Wow didn't know AC started. Was he a reserve or just a fan vote (I believe 90 was 100% fan voting).

[Fencer reregistered]

How about injured Vince Carter?

[Fencer reregistered]

Jamaal Magloire was one of the worst.

Blame Canada!

[CS707]

I love that this is causing some of you so much angst.

[Lalouie]

let's cut the cr@pola

the asg should be voted by players

this "it's for the fans" excuse is for the birds. fans will not care nor know the difference. and anyway i think players want the respect of their peers. this way the players will stop crying about not getting a nod

ps,,,,i didn't know bj was still playing. he must be 50 by now

Read on Twitter

no different than any other fan or media reason except you have 30 teams of 15 voting players, even if each team voted for it's own players. then the rule can be not to vote for your own team.

and even if some of the voting got weird. the players themselves would see how stupid they were and self correct, unlike fans

[SeattleJazzFan]

some more options
Dale Davis
AC Green

i said ac green, and yeah, he's the answer.

[SeattleJazzFan]

What years were they starters?

AC Green was a starter in 1990 (along with Stockton, Magic, James Worthy and Olajuwon)
misspoke on Dale Davis, he was on the team in 2000 but didn't start.

Wow didn't know AC started. Was he a reserve or just a fan vote (I believe 90 was 100% fan voting).

100% fan vote.

[Maf]

Stop bagging on wigey.

He's good, not great but good.

If Atlanta had 4 all stars that year they collapsed to the Cavs, GSW can have 3.

He's better then kyle korver.

B-b-b-better than the GOAT himself Kyle Korver?

[The4thHorseman]

Regarding Reggie Miller,

A significant portion of media voters that voted for the ASG players are closet Knick fans, which probably explains the Reggie Miller snub.

Same thing going on now with the Miami Heat. Alot of the media voters are Knick fans, so they are anti-Miami/anti Riley. Hence, why the Heat continue to get disrespected by national pundits. Majority of the media in general are significantly from northeastern region and have this wierd bias/stereotypes against South Floridians.

Not sure if it was mentioned but Media didn't have a vote for starters until the 2017 season. Fans had the say since 1975.

[michaelm]

The thing is he's not that great a defender. That's where having Green calling rotations helps his game so greatly. His size and length are huge factors in his defense being valuable, but while improved he still lacks awareness on both ends of the floor. Him making the allstar game isn't the worst thing ever, but anyone thinking he should start is crazy.

He is a good defender playing for GSW which just happens to be where he is playing this year.

You take him and put him on another team, like the wolves and he'd be back to be a poor defender. He's not able to read offenses and respond off ball. That's where dray screaming in his ear has had so much value. He's improved there, but you can't be a plus defender just playing really strong man defense.

I have zero interest in actually watching an all star game and Wiggins being involved won't change that.

I also don't think he is the best SF in the West, but do like a redemption story, and am happy for him to have been chosen after all the years of derision; he is very valuable for GSW. Garnering the votes he did from the players and the media suggests the choice isn't totally out there, and I disagree that the likes of Kawhi Leonard who is the best when healthy or George should be chosen ahead of him, his durability/availability while often taking the defensive assignment on the best player for the opposition simultaneously with reliable scoring does count for something imo. I also don't see why he should be judged on the basis of how he played for the Twolves now he is playing for GSW, and how he is for GSW is how the GSW organisation, and some GSW fans including me, judged him as likely capable of being. If he is only good on a well constructed and coached team so be it, but he is playing for such a team currently and has been judged on that basis as I said. I could argue you and others are judging him on his historical performances for a poorly constructed and coached team.

I wouldn't mind seeing a redemption arc for the Timberwolves as well btw, and they look to be somewhat on track for that after drafting Edwards and with KAT's form this year.

[hippesthippo]

I know he was not a starter, but the worst All-Star I've ever seen in all my 30+ years following the NBA was... Jamaal Magloire.

So much this. This moment changed the NBA.

[hippesthippo]

Also, the Warriors are great this season and Curry is having a "down year," so someone else gotta get that love.