2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.2)

[Infinite Llamas]

DPOY spreads fear ,Giannis does it ,Gobert ,Kaawi ,Jrue ,Smart ,not Jokic ,not Curry nor harden.

Jokic has two game sealing blocks this year. Maybe they should start to be a little more scared of him.

[moderndarwin]

Curry is the best defender because the best defense is a good offense. You have an army we have a hulk.

[falcolombardi]

DPOY spreads fear ,Giannis does it ,Gobert ,Kaawi ,Jrue ,Smart ,not Jokic ,not Curry nor harden.

Jokic has two game sealing blocks this year. Maybe they should start to be a little more scared of him.

66% fg% allowed at the rim tho...

[Infinite Llamas]

DPOY spreads fear ,Giannis does it ,Gobert ,Kaawi ,Jrue ,Smart ,not Jokic ,not Curry nor harden.

Jokic has two game sealing blocks this year. Maybe they should start to be a little more scared of him.

66% fg% allowed at the rim tho...

Again. Jokic has trash for perimeter defending guards. They get to the paint at will. If Jokic contested every shot at the rim he would foul out in the first. He’s too important to foul out. He has to pick and choose his spots. Sometimes he will concede a dunk or layup. His godly offense is worth that trade.

[Crives]

The guy no one wants to consider for MVP (Booker) just outplayed Embiid and beat him on his home court while coming off a tough B2B

[kuclas]

The guy no one wants to consider for MVP (Booker) just outplayed Embiid and beat him on his home court while coming off a tough B2B

Take cp3 away. See how good booker is. Come on man. Cp3 is who really drives the suns.

He’s healthy for now. That’s the only reason the clippers and the rockets with cp3 lost. Cp3 for injured all those playoff series.

[Hobo4President]

The guy no one wants to consider for MVP (Booker) just outplayed Embiid and beat him on his home court while coming off a tough B2B

He played great tonight but I have Paul ahead of Booker in the MVP race.

[fart]

Grayson looks great tonight. Is he usually this good?

[Statlanta]

Grayson looks great tonight. Is he usually this good?

All the Grizzlies players are peaking together don’t matter the location lol.

[WarriorGM]

The Warriors in 2020 without Curry had the 26th ranked defensive rating. With Curry back in 2021 their defensive rating climbed to 5th. With such a stark difference how are you sure Curry doesn't affect defense dramatically?

How about overall impact, not just defense?

“Denver has been thrashed by injuries, but it still plays like a historically dominant team (plus-12.8 points per 100) as long as Jokic is on the court; when he’s not, the Nuggets play like the worst team in NBA history (minus-15.2 per 100)."

Could have said similar about Curry last year.

The Warriors in 2020 without Curry had the 26th ranked defensive rating. With Curry back in 2021 their defensive rating climbed to 5th. With such a stark difference how are you sure Curry doesn't affect defense dramatically? Even now playing without Draymond they are winning and doing fine defensively.

Curry's impact covers all aspects of the game. It may not be clear in the traditional numbers but the plus-minus numbers make it plain as day.

i think that has more to do with draymond and co phoning it in than anythingh else tbh

And why do you think Draymond was phoning it in?

Because Curry was out. Having a guy you know who can keep you in games or win them outright is a huge morale booster that Curry gets no credit for in the box score. Maybe some of the other candidates can do that too but Curry I'd think has the clearest cut case of being able to turn a double digit deficit into a double digit lead.

[Chad34]

Grayson looks great tonight. Is he usually this good?

he's definitely been more aggressive. I didn't even know he had some of those moves. Guys on our board have been calling for him to be used more

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Giannis be creeping

[scrabbarista]

Grayson looks great tonight. Is he usually this good?

Seems like maybe definitely the wrong thread.

[LikeABosh]

Grayson looks great tonight. Is he usually this good?

Yes, he's a great role player

[greekbuck34]

This is what I was talking about the last few days. If one of the 3 MVP favourites(4 if you count Curry too) wins his conference he will automatically win the MVP award especially if the other two hover between the 3rd-6th seed. Just listen to this not biased lakers analyst who actually used to vote for the MVPs in the past starting at 9:00. This is how the voters were always thinking...

Watch on YouTube

[Dutchball97]

Big game for Giannis as dropping big numbers, while Embiid and Jokic have solid but unspectacular nights by their standards and the Bucks are now half a game out of first in the east.

I do still think that even if the Bucks get the 1st seed they need to create some seperation from the rest of the conference and if possible get a better record than the Grizzlies as well. Being the best in your conference isn't super impressive when there are multiple better teams in the other conference.

If things stay roughly as they are I can't help but think this will be the most divided MVP voting in years.

[BoatsNZones]

Epic night for the Freak. Giannis was always the player with the best chance to make a push to the top. But it bears mentioning that they've also had the easiest strength of schedule to date so far this season, and while they're getting healthier, they also have the toughest remaining strength of schedule in the league. Also bears mentioning that the #1 seed in the West has no resemblance to the #1 seed in the East, and that will be taken into account; if the Bucks are the 1 seed but have 8 more losses than the Warriors as a 2, for example. Especially considering the Bucks were projected for 55 wins (on pace for 51 despite the easy schedule thus far) and the Warriors 47.5 (on pace for 62 wins).

Fun race this year.

[itsxtray]

If you take away Curry’s 5 game season he is currently having:

Worst FG% of his career
Worst 3pt% of his career
Worst TS% of his career

How are you going to give the MVP to a guy shooting 42% from the field (who is the greatest shooter of all time). Especially when there are 3 players having all time great seasons. You could argue Jokic, Giannis and Embiid are all having top 10 seasons of all time…

This is the only season Curry has shot below 45% (42%) the only time he’s shot below 41% from 3 (38%).


26/5/6/2 on 42/38/91 shooting 59% TS
21.9 PER
6.8 WS
.191 WS/48
6.4 BPM
114 ORTG
104 DRTG

Compared to who is the favourite (per the poll) in Jokic:

26/14/8/1 on 58/38/82 on 66% TS
33.4 PER (highest by anyone in NBA history)
10.1 WS
.301 WS/48 (highest by anyone in NBA history)
14.7 BPM
126 ORTG
104 DRTG

You could argue Jokic is having the greatest season of all time where as Curry isn’t even having one of his own top 5 seasons…

It has to do with the difference between value and productivity. I'll give the classic example, which happens to be about Curry in college:

One game the other team's coach decided to double team Curry the entire game no matter where he was. After a few plays as Curry and his team figured out what was going on, Curry just went over and stood in a corner allowing his teammates to play 4 on 3 the rest of the game. His team won by 30, while Curry himself scored 0. The question:

Who was the MVP of Curry's team that day? The reality is that it was Curry. If Curry isn't out there, the opponent doesn't let Curry's team play 4-on-3, and the game is more competitive.

What's been going on in GS this year is similar. The sheer threat of Curry's shot is causing opponents to put a ton of pressure on Curry has been allowing defensive-oriented players to thrive offensively and that's why the team has been so, so effective whenever Curry is on the court even when he's in a shooting clump.

Does this make sense to you? If not, what are you hung up on?

To be clear: I have Jokic as my MVP at this point. Curry being in a slump doesn't have the kind of negative effect that people assume it should, but it does have some effect and it's a part of why the Warriors slipped down to the 2nd best record in the league.

But wherever you personally end up placing Curry, I think it's crucial to understand that he has been insanely valuable for his team in a way that you should never assume other players are simply based on their box score.

On a philosophical level we could talk about the difference between an MVP and a Most Outstanding Player (MOP) like what they have in college basketball. The implication of the latter is that it really is about how a player's positive actions are causing him to "stand out" and that's what's being awarded rather than a statement of whose presence contributes the most impact to his team even if the guy isn't really doing anything that amazing to the eyes.

Because the NBA MVP is purposefully left so vague quite frankly it's hard to say that someone using MOP criteria is "voting wrong for the MVP", but semantically the difference is clear and has everything to do with why Bill Russell won more MVPs than Wilt Chamberlain.

Last note:

You can specifically argue that Curry's impact is "inflated" by staying on one team, with the same coach, and the same core around him for years - meaning that if we judge each player based on the impact we can expect him to have put into a new environment with players who don't know how best to play around, Curry would be less impactful than he currently is. Of course, I would argue that that's why it's important in any endeavor to stick with it and build relationships with your co-workers so as to become as effective as you can possibly be, and the idea of trying to normalize that away is antithetical to the concept of adding value.

Yep people should definitely watch this vid on it:

Watch on YouTube

Edited to elaborate on my thoughts. It's not about Curry being some great individual or even team defender, it's that he's so dangerous offensively and creates so many open shots for his teammates that defensive minded players can play above their level on offense. Say you swap out Steph for Thybulle and the warriors get even better on defense but fall to the bottom on offense their overall team would be worse even with having by far the best defense. This is what Boatsnzones means by he makes their defense "relevant." That defense wouldn't mean much if they were 30th on offense.

[MrBigShot]

Lol with those Booker mentions again. C'mon now. Just take 1 quick look at the seasons Jokic, Embiid and Giannis are having. Booker isn't on their level.

[Crives]

The guy no one wants to consider for MVP (Booker) just outplayed Embiid and beat him on his home court while coming off a tough B2B

Take cp3 away. See how good booker is. Come on man. Cp3 is who really drives the suns.

He’s healthy for now. That’s the only reason the clippers and the rockets with cp3 lost. Cp3 for injured all those playoff series.

Yes CP3 is also a top mvp candidate. Having two candidates is a big reason why phx is tracking to 67 wins while teams with only one candidate are tracking towards 45-48 wins like the Sixers/Nuggets.

Are we really going to discount what Bookers doing because his backcourt mate is having an awesome but slightly less impactful season? Do we not realize how hard it is to add more wins as your percentage goes up this high? There is a massive gap between a 67 win team vs a 45-48 win team (Nuggets/Sixers)

The point of the nba is to win games, and the players who help their teams win the most games should be rewarded.
Right now there should be three serious candidates: Booker, Steph and CP3. I expect the Bucks will get their **** together by seasons end, bringing Giannis to the top of the conversation. But right now, respectfully, discussing teams having mediocre sub 50 win seasons as leading the MVP race is insane. Those players should definitely be discussed as having historic seasons or best player in the nba type seasons, but a sub 50 win team should not be part of the mvp conversation when there are currently two teams with mvp candidates that are Winning games.