Karl Malone has a case for top 10 ever and best PF ever

[geminiz]

Forget top 10, Malone is easily the GOAT PF, Pedophile Fetish.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using RealGM mobile app

[Lalouie]

dunno

never watched utah

[dhsilv2]

Malone was an ironman and played crazy minutes. I have no issues if you take his longevity and make a case he was better than players who were better at their peaks, but lets discuss stats correctly. Malone's peak stats aren't better than KG. His career stats are due to insane health and just being an absolute iron man. That's his case over KG.

KG was nowhere near the offensive player. Malone averaged 31ppg in a single season ('89-90). He had a higher scoring average than KG's career best in 12 of those season's. That's remarkable. Karl averaged 25 & 10 over his career & is still 2nd in points. 7th in Rebounds. I just don't know how you can discount that.

Was KG a better defender? Certainly. But Karl still made the All-Defensive team 4x. He was by no means a slouch on that end.

Malone won 2 MVP's. KG just the one.

As far as games played they're only separated by 15 (6th/7th respectively). Obviously KG's minutes started to decline later in his career. But that speaks more to Karl's longevity. Which as you have acknowledged, he clearly has him beat.

I'd say that he has a pretty strong case.

Malone was setup by one of the greatest point guards to ever play the game. KG was on teams to thin that he was actually asked to play point guard in a conference finals. You're also comparing per game metrics in completely different eras.

They were very different offensive players but both peaked roughly at the same level. Peak OBPM of 7.1 vs 6.8. KG was an elite passing big men....with frankly not much offensive help. While Malone was a good passer who had Stockton and then the likes of Hornacek who was strong offensive players for that era (peak OBPM of 3.8 in 1996 and a 10.2 WS which is allstar level historically).

1990 Malone vs 2004 KG.

So lets add context to your 31 points per game. Jazz were the 10th best offense that year at 110.3 per 100. Malone scored 29.03% of the jazz points per game and 10.37% of his team's assists.

Wolves were 5th in offensive rating in 2004 at 105.9 (not the large difference in team offensive rating despite relative to league the wolves being better). KG scored 25.61% of this team's points and 21.74% of his team's assists.

So we ultimately see Malone being a better scorer mind you getting to play with Stockton vs Cassel (maybe the only allstar KG ever played with on the wolves?) and certainly the only guy deserving of such an award. Meanwhile KG was creating more offense with his passing and playmaking.

So you can go either way with these two. KG imo wasn't a strong enough iso scorer to pound the ball to and force teams to break their defense to stop him. Malone likely was though it's impossible to separate him and stockton. Conversely KG could run the entire team offense or play completely off ball and have huge impact while Malone didn't have the ball handling or play making skills there and I think a pick and pop Malone role is just fine for him, but I think KG's ability to pick, pop, drive, or dime makes him stronger in a fully off ball role.

If you want to pick Malone over KG on offense, that's perfectly fine imo. But the gap isn't huge while the defensive gap is significant. Just take defensive rebounding where Malone peaked at 27.2 DRB% while KG had 9 seasons at a higher rate. Or BLK% where KG has 14 seasons better than Malone's best. Malone did peak higher in steal percentage but both had something like 8-10 years around 2-2.5 here, pretty even.

And again your peak all in one box metrics all paint KG's peak as better overall and show their offensive numbers pretty similar peak vs peak. Malone however had more offensive help in his prime years which is hard to fully analyze given how down right bad KG's teammates were outside of 04 and even then, it wasn't like he had stockton.

[MarcusBrody]

Also, raw offensive numbers between the 3 players is a bit unfair considering the differences in eras and caliber of teammates Malone and Duncan had over KG.

OP also conveniently ignored playoffs entirely and not a word on the very considerable gap on defense (which is the end where TD and KG really shined). Just a very biased portrayal of these players.

I don't think that anyone thinks that Malone is on their level as a defender, but he is a 3-time first team All Defensive Team player himself (and has another 2nd team selection I believe). I think those first team selections were after KG was in the league, and the last were after TD was there (Looking it up, he made second team for the second of Malone's and was also on first team with him for Malone's last).

Now, again, that's not to say that Malone was on the level of TD/KG in their defensive primes, but he was a very good defender so the gap isn't THAT huge.

Personally, I have him pretty close to KG. KG was a better defensive player. Malone was a better offensive player. Both top 20 all time, but neither are top 10 for me. Duncan is a step above in my mind.

[Jamaaliver]

You’re really judging his play based off a highlight reel?

Malone was an elite iso scorer and regularly dominated players in iso, including Rodman, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Tim Duncan.

His turn around long range jumper (it was a patented fadeaway shot, not a catch and shoot) clocked in at 54% FG in the range of 16feet-3P during his MVP year at age 33. That’s better than Kevin Durant or Chris Paul from long midrange except for their 2 career best seasons, and he played 20 games more than them in each season.

No. I was an avid NBA fan throughout all of the 90s. That highlight reel just reinforces what his strengths were. Notice there aren't many examples of him posting up, facing up, leading the break, passing from the high post. Because those weren't his strengths.

NOTE: Karl Malone was NOT an elite iso player.

Hakeem was.
Shaq was.
Ewing was.
Barkley was.

KM was a great basketball player, but he didn't initiate plays or generate offense the way many of his contemporaries did.

[azcatz11]

Fifty years from now, people will examine his stats and say, "Wait a second, this guy was one of the five best basketball players ever!" And that's why you shouldn't totally trust statistics. There was no stat that could fully capture the Karl Malone "Uh-oh, I'm taking another dump in a big playoff game" Face.

- Bill Simmons

[euroleague]

You’re really judging his play based off a highlight reel?

Malone was an elite iso scorer and regularly dominated players in iso, including Rodman, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Tim Duncan.

His turn around long range jumper (it was a patented fadeaway shot, not a catch and shoot) clocked in at 54% FG in the range of 16feet-3P during his MVP year at age 33. That’s better than Kevin Durant or Chris Paul from long midrange except for their 2 career best seasons, and he played 20 games more than them in each season.

No. I was an avid NBA fan throughout all of the 90s. That highlight reel just reinforces what his strengths were. Notice there aren't many examples of him posting up, facing up, leading the break, passing from the high post. Because those weren't his strengths.

NOTE: Karl Malone was NOT an elite iso player.

Hakeem was.
Shaq was.
Ewing was.
Barkley was.

KM was a great basketball player, but he didn't initiate plays or generate offense the way many of his contemporaries did.

I was an avid Karl Malone watcher throughout the 90s. He could initiate quite well, as well as face up. He didn’t that often because that wasn’t his role in the offense.

He was elite on the break as well - one of his hallmarks was playing extremely quick in transition, beating opposing bigs back for easy buckets.

He averaged 4.5 apg in his mvp year, while playing off ball in the high post. That doesn’t happen if he’s not an elite playmaker from that position.

[abark]

She was 13 Karl

He was in college and never charged. Turns out his son from that encounter made it to the NFL but never had a relationship with Karl (understandable from the kids perspective not wanting to know him).

He was 20 and she was 13. And who needs a criminal charge when a ****ing pregnancy was involved. That enough evidence he did it for u?

Embarrassing post

[GameChannel]

Tim Duncan. Nuff said.

[NZB2323]

Karl Malone played with John Stockton, one of the best point guards of all time, and ranked as the 24th best player of all time by ESPN. And he didn't win any rings. I know people say he ran into Jordan's Bulls, but the 98 Bulls team was running on fumes and was easily the worst Bulls championship team. The Pacers pushed the Bulls to game 7, something the Jazz weren't able to do. And what is Karl's excuse for 94, 95, and 99?

Tim Duncan beat Shaq and Kobe in 2003 without another all-star on his team. Dirk beat Lebron, Wade, and Bosh in 2011 without another all-star on his team. KG's best teammate in Minnesota was a 34 year old Sam Cassell who got injured in the WCF.

I was also trying to find a list of game winners or clutch points in nba playoff history. I'm looking for stats to back it up, but Duncan, KG, Dirk, and Stockton are more clutch than Karl. This is the best link I could find, which ranks Malone with a clutch rating of 1 out of 25.

https://janetpanic.com/who-has-the-most-clutch-playoff-shots-in-nba-history/#Who_has_the_most_clutch_playoff_shots_in_NBA_history

So Karl Malone is a better scorer, but you can't go to him during clutch time. Duncan and KG are better defensive players, Dirk and Duncan are better clutch scorers, and KG is a better passer.

I have Malone ahead of Barkley because of longevity, but I can't put him ahead of Duncan, KG, or Dirk.

[dhsilv2]

Also, raw offensive numbers between the 3 players is a bit unfair considering the differences in eras and caliber of teammates Malone and Duncan had over KG.

OP also conveniently ignored playoffs entirely and not a word on the very considerable gap on defense (which is the end where TD and KG really shined). Just a very biased portrayal of these players.

I don't think that anyone thinks that Malone is on their level as a defender, but he is a 3-time first team All Defensive Team player himself (and has another 2nd team selection I believe). I think those first team selections were after KG was in the league, and the last were after TD was there (Looking it up, he made second team for the second of Malone's and was also on first team with him for Malone's last).

Now, again, that's not to say that Malone was on the level of TD/KG in their defensive primes, but he was a very good defender so the gap isn't THAT huge.

Personally, I have him pretty close to KG. KG was a better defensive player. Malone was a better offensive player. Both top 20 all time, but neither are top 10 for me. Duncan is a step above in my mind.

Couple things on defense. Lets be blunt, who makes their first all nba 1st team defensive team (and 2nd of their career) at 33? I'm not saying Malone was a terrible defender but, that's insanely unusual and I'm just going to say it, it likely wasn't that justified. That said we do have 3 all nba first teams AND we get the bonus of that was in the "modern" ish stats era so we can actually compare Malone and KG's defensive stats that we have. Sure they aren't perfect but at least we can take a gander.

For this purpose I will look at DRPM - defensive real plus minus from ESPN. My focus will be league rank vs absolute value but I'll list both. I question if ESPN's stats are normalized year to year. I haven't looked at this ahead of time so I might be surprised. My gut is KG will stand out as meaningfully better and we can then look at offense between VERY good and all time greats in this era to quantify differences for context.

Malone

1997 - 140th (0.36)
1998 - 37th (2.20)
1999 - 123rd (0.51)

What does this mean? Well, first that DRPM isn't some perfect metric but I don't see a good RAPM data set for that period that I can grab and I'd love 2 year vs 1 year. I'd venture to guess Malone is better than the 0.51 and 0.36 but worse than the 2.20 if I was asked, but I think it matches with what I think is very reasonable logic....Malone was a plus defender, but he wasn't some kind of all league level guy. He had good hands (we'll get into steals later), was strong as an ox which helped in man defense, but wasn't a rim protector, not a great rotation guy, and often needed in his 30's to rest some on defense. He also was a good defensive rebounder but not a world beater there either.

KG

So we have more history on KG so I feel like maybe I want to show more years, plus KG had some terrible teams. If this is biasing this please let me know but I think it's important to look at a wider range if we can. We just don't have enough prime years of malone but at least we have his only 3 all nba defensive selections in that sample.

2003 - 3rd 4.46
2004 - 8th 3.79
2005 - 31st 2.34
2006 - 7th 4.15
2007 - 2nd 5.10
2008 - 2nd 5.92

OK so RPM context. Curry lead the league last year at 7.18. Giannis at 10.30 in 2020. Curry again in 2019 at 7.6.

If you were to drop 2 points in RPM it in 2019 would drop you from Curry to somewhere between Paul George at 5.8 and Irving at 4.96. A 2 point drop from say the 10th player in a given year drops you to something like the 40th highest RPM (I'm not removing low minute players). Basically 2 points of RPM is a HUGE drop, like the gap in all nba 3rd team and not an allstar.

So the gap here we're seeing in their defense is pretty huge, again the gap between quality starter and all nba, just on the defensive end and assuming we take the best year of KG there and I guess we overlook the poor 2005 KG showing.

What about other data?

Well we have their defensive rebounding. KG has something like 9 seasons where he grabbed a larger percentage of the total defensive rebounds available than Malone. Over a decade of better block seasons than malone adjusting for pace and era. And their steal numbers...both are actually very good with Malone perhaps having a small edge as his peak, but basically the two were extremely similar there.

All the information we have, while maybe not optimal or ideal shows KG being a legit game changing defender. Among the best of all time and certainly his era, an era dominated by defensive specialists. Malone was a good defender, but the stats and frankly the scouting reports on Malone paint him as good, not game changing on defense.

https://backpicks.com/2018/02/08/backpicks-goat-13-karl-malone/

Here's elgee's analysis and you'll note he really doesn't touch on defense. Great hands, good charges, good footwork, and a general assessment of moderately positive. He also notes he DID get better as a MAN defender as he aged so there's that for the all nba selections. But then who writes up all that and glosses over defense unless that's not really where his value was? And Elgee ranks Malone pretty highly, I think he first had him over Kobe but then adjusted it later. This is hardly a negative view of malone.

[MarcusBrody]

OP also conveniently ignored playoffs entirely and not a word on the very considerable gap on defense (which is the end where TD and KG really shined). Just a very biased portrayal of these players.

I don't think that anyone thinks that Malone is on their level as a defender, but he is a 3-time first team All Defensive Team player himself (and has another 2nd team selection I believe). I think those first team selections were after KG was in the league, and the last were after TD was there (Looking it up, he made second team for the second of Malone's and was also on first team with him for Malone's last).

Now, again, that's not to say that Malone was on the level of TD/KG in their defensive primes, but he was a very good defender so the gap isn't THAT huge.

Personally, I have him pretty close to KG. KG was a better defensive player. Malone was a better offensive player. Both top 20 all time, but neither are top 10 for me. Duncan is a step above in my mind.

Couple things on defense. Lets be blunt, who makes their first all nba 1st team defensive team (and 2nd of their career) at 33? I'm not saying Malone was a terrible defender but, that's insanely unusual and I'm just going to say it, it likely wasn't that justified. That said we do have 3 all nba first teams AND we get the bonus of that was in the "modern" ish stats era so we can actually compare Malone and KG's defensive stats that we have. Sure they aren't perfect but at least we can take a gander.

For this purpose I will look at DRPM - defensive real plus minus from ESPN. My focus will be league rank vs absolute value but I'll list both. I question if ESPN's stats are normalized year to year. I haven't looked at this ahead of time so I might be surprised. My gut is KG will stand out as meaningfully better and we can then look at offense between VERY good and all time greats in this era to quantify differences for context.

Malone

1997 - 140th (0.36)
1998 - 37th (2.20)
1999 - 123rd (0.51)

What does this mean? Well, first that DRPM isn't some perfect metric but I don't see a good RAPM data set for that period that I can grab and I'd love 2 year vs 1 year. I'd venture to guess Malone is better than the 0.51 and 0.36 but worse than the 2.20 if I was asked, but I think it matches with what I think is very reasonable logic....Malone was a plus defender, but he wasn't some kind of all league level guy. He had good hands (we'll get into steals later), was strong as an ox which helped in man defense, but wasn't a rim protector, not a great rotation guy, and often needed in his 30's to rest some on defense. He also was a good defensive rebounder but not a world beater there either.

KG

So we have more history on KG so I feel like maybe I want to show more years, plus KG had some terrible teams. If this is biasing this please let me know but I think it's important to look at a wider range if we can. We just don't have enough prime years of malone but at least we have his only 3 all nba defensive selections in that sample.

2003 - 3rd 4.46
2004 - 8th 3.79
2005 - 31st 2.34
2006 - 7th 4.15
2007 - 2nd 5.10
2008 - 2nd 5.92

OK so RPM context. Curry lead the league last year at 7.18. Giannis at 10.30 in 2020. Curry again in 2019 at 7.6.

If you were to drop 2 points in RPM it in 2019 would drop you from Curry to somewhere between Paul George at 5.8 and Irving at 4.96. A 2 point drop from say the 10th player in a given year drops you to something like the 40th highest RPM (I'm not removing low minute players). Basically 2 points of RPM is a HUGE drop, like the gap in all nba 3rd team and not an allstar.

So the gap here we're seeing in their defense is pretty huge, again the gap between quality starter and all nba, just on the defensive end and assuming we take the best year of KG there and I guess we overlook the poor 2005 KG showing.

What about other data?

Well we have their defensive rebounding. KG has something like 9 seasons where he grabbed a larger percentage of the total defensive rebounds available than Malone. Over a decade of better block seasons than malone adjusting for pace and era. And their steal numbers...both are actually very good with Malone perhaps having a small edge as his peak, but basically the two were extremely similar there.

All the information we have, while maybe not optimal or ideal shows KG being a legit game changing defender. Among the best of all time and certainly his era, an era dominated by defensive specialists. Malone was a good defender, but the stats and frankly the scouting reports on Malone paint him as good, not game changing on defense.

https://backpicks.com/2018/02/08/backpicks-goat-13-karl-malone/

Here's elgee's analysis and you'll note he really doesn't touch on defense. Great hands, good charges, good footwork, and a general assessment of moderately positive. He also notes he DID get better as a MAN defender as he aged so there's that for the all nba selections. But then who writes up all that and glosses over defense unless that's not really where his value was? And Elgee ranks Malone pretty highly, I think he first had him over Kobe but then adjusted it later. This is hardly a negative view of malone.

I'm perfectly willing to listen to arguments that KG was notably better than Malone and I think that Backpicks makes a great case. I love data, so I really enjoyed that series.

I do have have a couple of nit picks though that I think lessen the difference: First, I don't totally love when he creates the three factor offensive graphs (creation/efficiency/scoring) he scales things for big men, which I think tends to overemphasize "creation" in the area under the curve given the role these players were playing (maybe once we get to someone like Jokic, it does not, but he'd also be off the chart to the left on the metric). So I'm not sure that Garnett being highest in creation really offsets Malone's peak being higher than peak Shaq in efficiency and falling behind Shaq but equal with DRob/Dirk in scoring while KG was at the bottom of those categories. Also, it doesn't take into account (as the author notes) that Malone actually became a much better passer right after the peak graph cuts off, and at that point his rate of quality passes/100 is about the same as KG's. When you add that to the fact that Malone sustained that first option offensive peak much longer than KG, I think there is a pretty decent gap as offensive players (though you can argue the defensive gap was greater).


I actually did think the All Defense teams thing was weird. I looked it up and in the three years prior to him jumping into the first team suddenly, he was in the "others receiving votes category". Pippen, Rodman, and Horace Grant were the mainstays. In 1993 he came closest, missing Second Team by a single vote to Larry Nance.

In any case, I'm not offended by anyone putting KG over Malone. I think that Backpicks ranks Garnett higher than most other sources (at 8), though they make a strong case. I'd personally put him at 11-12 and Malone at 13 or so, so not much separation. Whereas I think Duncan is a bit higher on my list (in the 5-7 range).

[dhsilv2]

I don't think that anyone thinks that Malone is on their level as a defender, but he is a 3-time first team All Defensive Team player himself (and has another 2nd team selection I believe). I think those first team selections were after KG was in the league, and the last were after TD was there (Looking it up, he made second team for the second of Malone's and was also on first team with him for Malone's last).

Now, again, that's not to say that Malone was on the level of TD/KG in their defensive primes, but he was a very good defender so the gap isn't THAT huge.

Personally, I have him pretty close to KG. KG was a better defensive player. Malone was a better offensive player. Both top 20 all time, but neither are top 10 for me. Duncan is a step above in my mind.

Couple things on defense. Lets be blunt, who makes their first all nba 1st team defensive team (and 2nd of their career) at 33? I'm not saying Malone was a terrible defender but, that's insanely unusual and I'm just going to say it, it likely wasn't that justified. That said we do have 3 all nba first teams AND we get the bonus of that was in the "modern" ish stats era so we can actually compare Malone and KG's defensive stats that we have. Sure they aren't perfect but at least we can take a gander.

For this purpose I will look at DRPM - defensive real plus minus from ESPN. My focus will be league rank vs absolute value but I'll list both. I question if ESPN's stats are normalized year to year. I haven't looked at this ahead of time so I might be surprised. My gut is KG will stand out as meaningfully better and we can then look at offense between VERY good and all time greats in this era to quantify differences for context.

Malone

1997 - 140th (0.36)
1998 - 37th (2.20)
1999 - 123rd (0.51)

What does this mean? Well, first that DRPM isn't some perfect metric but I don't see a good RAPM data set for that period that I can grab and I'd love 2 year vs 1 year. I'd venture to guess Malone is better than the 0.51 and 0.36 but worse than the 2.20 if I was asked, but I think it matches with what I think is very reasonable logic....Malone was a plus defender, but he wasn't some kind of all league level guy. He had good hands (we'll get into steals later), was strong as an ox which helped in man defense, but wasn't a rim protector, not a great rotation guy, and often needed in his 30's to rest some on defense. He also was a good defensive rebounder but not a world beater there either.

KG

So we have more history on KG so I feel like maybe I want to show more years, plus KG had some terrible teams. If this is biasing this please let me know but I think it's important to look at a wider range if we can. We just don't have enough prime years of malone but at least we have his only 3 all nba defensive selections in that sample.

2003 - 3rd 4.46
2004 - 8th 3.79
2005 - 31st 2.34
2006 - 7th 4.15
2007 - 2nd 5.10
2008 - 2nd 5.92

OK so RPM context. Curry lead the league last year at 7.18. Giannis at 10.30 in 2020. Curry again in 2019 at 7.6.

If you were to drop 2 points in RPM it in 2019 would drop you from Curry to somewhere between Paul George at 5.8 and Irving at 4.96. A 2 point drop from say the 10th player in a given year drops you to something like the 40th highest RPM (I'm not removing low minute players). Basically 2 points of RPM is a HUGE drop, like the gap in all nba 3rd team and not an allstar.

So the gap here we're seeing in their defense is pretty huge, again the gap between quality starter and all nba, just on the defensive end and assuming we take the best year of KG there and I guess we overlook the poor 2005 KG showing.

What about other data?

Well we have their defensive rebounding. KG has something like 9 seasons where he grabbed a larger percentage of the total defensive rebounds available than Malone. Over a decade of better block seasons than malone adjusting for pace and era. And their steal numbers...both are actually very good with Malone perhaps having a small edge as his peak, but basically the two were extremely similar there.

All the information we have, while maybe not optimal or ideal shows KG being a legit game changing defender. Among the best of all time and certainly his era, an era dominated by defensive specialists. Malone was a good defender, but the stats and frankly the scouting reports on Malone paint him as good, not game changing on defense.

https://backpicks.com/2018/02/08/backpicks-goat-13-karl-malone/

Here's elgee's analysis and you'll note he really doesn't touch on defense. Great hands, good charges, good footwork, and a general assessment of moderately positive. He also notes he DID get better as a MAN defender as he aged so there's that for the all nba selections. But then who writes up all that and glosses over defense unless that's not really where his value was? And Elgee ranks Malone pretty highly, I think he first had him over Kobe but then adjusted it later. This is hardly a negative view of malone.

I'm perfectly willing to listen to arguments that KG was notably better than Malone and I think that Backpicks makes a great case. I love data, so I really enjoyed that series.

I do have have a couple of nit picks though that I think lessen the difference: First, I don't totally love when he creates the three factor offensive graphs (creation/efficiency/scoring) he scales things for big men, which I think tends to overemphasize "creation" in the area under the curve given the role these players were playing (maybe once we get to someone like Jokic, it does not, but he'd also be off the chart to the left on the metric). So I'm not sure that Garnett being highest in creation really offsets Malone's peak being higher than peak Shaq in efficiency and falling behind Shaq but equal with DRob/Dirk in scoring while KG was at the bottom of those categories. Also, it doesn't take into account (as the author notes) that Malone actually became a much better passer right after the peak graph cuts off, and at that point his rate of quality passes/100 is about the same as KG's. When you add that to the fact that Malone sustained that first option offensive peak much longer than KG, I think there is a pretty decent gap as offensive players (though you can argue the defensive gap was greater).


I actually did think the All Defense teams thing was weird. I looked it up and in the three years prior to him jumping into the first team suddenly, he was in the "others receiving votes category". Pippen, Rodman, and Horace Grant were the mainstays. In 1993 he came closest, missing Second Team by a single vote to Larry Nance.

In any case, I'm not offended by anyone putting KG over Malone. I think that Backpicks ranks Garnett higher than most other sources (at 8), though they make a strong case. I'd personally put him at 11-12 and Malone at 13 or so, so not much separation. Whereas I think Duncan is a bit higher on my list (in the 5-7 range).

Personally hate Elgee's 3 and 4 or whatever factors graphs in general. I hate those things for basketball and hate them in darn near every other place I see them. But the goal was just to add some scouting comments, even if minimal, about his defense. But I think the lack of defensive discussion pretty much covers my view of Malone. He was a plus defender, but otherwise not noteworthy either way. KG conversely is among the best ever.

Offensively, if you want to take Malone that's fine, but both KG and Malone were very good offensive players, but not Shaq or MJ or Curry level. The separation there just isn't that great like it is for their defense. Thus why I think KG has a pretty strong argument as being better than Malone. That said my issue with your post was completely focused on the defensive side of the ball. KG was imo a MUCH more impactful defender. If you think Malone was a better passer than I do and thus rank Malone higher or you focus on longevity between the two as top tier offensive players, that's perfectly reasonable.

[ty 4191]

Hes probably a top 10 regular season player of all time

This narrative the Karl Malone was poor in the playoffs has been debunked. His numbers don't look as great at Duncan's- relatively speaking- because he faced much better defenses in the playoffs in his prime:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300

I've been collecting stats for a while and I decided to make this post here. I separated some superstars offensive production in playoffs based on defense (RS ORtg) faced. Here are my (random) criteria:

Over +2.0 rDRtg - Bad Defense
From +2.0 to -2.0 rDRtg - Average Defense
From -2.0 to -4.0 rDRtg - Good Defense
From -4.0 to -7.0 rDRtg - Elite Defense
Below -7.0 rDRtg - All-Time Great Defense

Tim Duncan (1998-08):

RS: 37.2 mpg, 11.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.8 tov, 21.6 ppg on 50.8% FG, 68.4% FT and 55.3% TS (+2.77% rTS)

--Against Bad Defenses (6.45% of playoffs games): 39.5 mpg, 10.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.6 tov, 26.7 ppg on 48.1% FG, 75.9% FT and 56.6% TS (+4.38% rTS)

--Against Average Defenses (64.52% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 12.5 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.4 ppg on 51.8% FG, 68.5% FT, 56.6% TS (+3.88 rTS%)

--Against Good Defenses (12.26% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 14.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, 3.2 tov, 23.6 ppg on 45.8% FG, 69.0% FT and 51.1% TS (-1.77 rTS%)

--Against Elite Defenses (16.77% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 13.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.6 ppg on 47.8% FG, 68.0% FT and 52.7% TS (+0.50% rTS)

--Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games):--

Karl Malone (1989-01):

RS: 37.9 mpg, 10.4 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3.0 tov, 26.9 ppg on 52.6% FG, 75.9% FT and 59.1% TS (+5.98% rTS)

-Against Bad Defenses (3.50% of playoffs games): 39.8 mpg, 12.6 rpg, 1.6 apg, 2.8 tov, 26.6 ppg on 46.1% FG, 83.0% FT and 54.2% TS (+1.81% rTS)

-Against Average Defenses (33.57% of playoffs games): 41.0 mpg, 11.1 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.0 tov, 28.6 ppg on 47.9% FG, 78.9% FT, 55.5% TS (+2.58% rTS)

-Against Good Defenses (21.68% of playoffs games): 41.6 mpg, 11.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.9 tov, 26.5 ppg on 43.7% FG, 80.5% FT and 52.5% TS (-0.79 rTS%)

-Against Elite Defenses (41.26% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 11.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.7 tov, 25.4 ppg on 46.8% FG, 67.0% FT and 51.5% TS (-1.56% rTS)

-Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --

[Dutchball97]

Hes probably a top 10 regular season player of all time

This narrative the Karl Malone was poor in the playoffs has been debunked. His numbers don't look as great at Duncan's- relatively speaking- because he faced much better defenses in the playoffs in his prime:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300

I've been collecting stats for a while and I decided to make this post here. I separated some superstars offensive production in playoffs based on defense (RS ORtg) faced. Here are my (random) criteria:

Over +2.0 rDRtg - Bad Defense
From +2.0 to -2.0 rDRtg - Average Defense
From -2.0 to -4.0 rDRtg - Good Defense
From -4.0 to -7.0 rDRtg - Elite Defense
Below -7.0 rDRtg - All-Time Great Defense

Tim Duncan (1998-08):

RS: 37.2 mpg, 11.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.8 tov, 21.6 ppg on 50.8% FG, 68.4% FT and 55.3% TS (+2.77% rTS)

--Against Bad Defenses (6.45% of playoffs games): 39.5 mpg, 10.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.6 tov, 26.7 ppg on 48.1% FG, 75.9% FT and 56.6% TS (+4.38% rTS)

--Against Average Defenses (64.52% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 12.5 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.4 ppg on 51.8% FG, 68.5% FT, 56.6% TS (+3.88 rTS%)

--Against Good Defenses (12.26% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 14.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, 3.2 tov, 23.6 ppg on 45.8% FG, 69.0% FT and 51.1% TS (-1.77 rTS%)

--Against Elite Defenses (16.77% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 13.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.6 ppg on 47.8% FG, 68.0% FT and 52.7% TS (+0.50% rTS)

--Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games):--

Karl Malone (1989-01):

RS: 37.9 mpg, 10.4 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3.0 tov, 26.9 ppg on 52.6% FG, 75.9% FT and 59.1% TS (+5.98% rTS)

-Against Bad Defenses (3.50% of playoffs games): 39.8 mpg, 12.6 rpg, 1.6 apg, 2.8 tov, 26.6 ppg on 46.1% FG, 83.0% FT and 54.2% TS (+1.81% rTS)

-Against Average Defenses (33.57% of playoffs games): 41.0 mpg, 11.1 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.0 tov, 28.6 ppg on 47.9% FG, 78.9% FT, 55.5% TS (+2.58% rTS)

-Against Good Defenses (21.68% of playoffs games): 41.6 mpg, 11.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.9 tov, 26.5 ppg on 43.7% FG, 80.5% FT and 52.5% TS (-0.79 rTS%)

-Against Elite Defenses (41.26% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 11.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.7 tov, 25.4 ppg on 46.8% FG, 67.0% FT and 51.5% TS (-1.56% rTS)

-Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --

You're comparing a volume scorer with decent defense to an all-time great defender who happened to be a pretty good scorer too. This is pretty much just going off who is the best scorer and I don't think it is a surprise Malone would have a decent advantage there or at least not look worse than a defensive minded player like Duncan.

When you look at his regular season advanced stats and what he did in the regular season you'll see he underperformed in about half his post-season runs and even at his very best in the post-season he wasn't as good as multiple regular season campaigns. David Robinson has a similar career where he never quite lived up to his regular season standards in the post-season but Robinson was much more consistent year to year and never really had the complete stinkers Malone had. If you don't perform in the post-season you can't be top 10 all-time imo.

[Harry Garris]

He's easily one of the most underrated players on this board and in general, and maybe the most underrated, and I think it's mainly because people just dont like him cuz he was a dirty player and apparently quite the creep in his personal life.
Imo he's the 2nd best PF ever only slightly behind Timmy because of Duncan's defensive value, but even that is closer than most people recognize.

He's not underrated.

He may have put up massive regular season numbers but he consistently regressed in the playoffs. And like you briefly alluded to both sides of the floor matter, not just offense. KG and Duncan were so much better than Karl Malone defensively it's a joke, and that has to be taken into account.

[homecourtloss]

Also, raw offensive numbers between the 3 players is a bit unfair considering the differences in eras and caliber of teammates Malone and Duncan had over KG.

OP also conveniently ignored playoffs entirely and not a word on the very considerable gap on defense (which is the end where TD and KG really shined). Just a very biased portrayal of these players.

OP is propping Karl Malone because he’s actually trying to prop up another player from the ‘80s/‘90s.

[aminiaturebuddha]

First of all, no Karl Malone isn't close to top 10 all-time, and yes he really seems like a POS as a person.

That said, people who want to knock Malone for how he performed in the playoffs but seem to give KG a pass don't remember KG's pre-Boston days. Sure, he didn't have a great team around him, but KG played 10 playoff series before he got to Boston. He only won 2 and only shot better than 50% in one of them. He didn't exactly "step it up" in the playoffs until he got to Boston, where he no longer needed to be his team's primary scoring option, something Malone had to deal with his entire career until he was a 40-year-old in LA.

[ty 4191]

Hes probably a top 10 regular season player of all time

This narrative the Karl Malone was poor in the playoffs has been debunked. His numbers don't look as great at Duncan's- relatively speaking- because he faced much better defenses in the playoffs in his prime:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300

I've been collecting stats for a while and I decided to make this post here. I separated some superstars offensive production in playoffs based on defense (RS ORtg) faced. Here are my (random) criteria:

Over +2.0 rDRtg - Bad Defense
From +2.0 to -2.0 rDRtg - Average Defense
From -2.0 to -4.0 rDRtg - Good Defense
From -4.0 to -7.0 rDRtg - Elite Defense
Below -7.0 rDRtg - All-Time Great Defense

Tim Duncan (1998-08):

RS: 37.2 mpg, 11.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.8 tov, 21.6 ppg on 50.8% FG, 68.4% FT and 55.3% TS (+2.77% rTS)

--Against Bad Defenses (6.45% of playoffs games): 39.5 mpg, 10.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.6 tov, 26.7 ppg on 48.1% FG, 75.9% FT and 56.6% TS (+4.38% rTS)

--Against Average Defenses (64.52% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 12.5 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.4 ppg on 51.8% FG, 68.5% FT, 56.6% TS (+3.88 rTS%)

--Against Good Defenses (12.26% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 14.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, 3.2 tov, 23.6 ppg on 45.8% FG, 69.0% FT and 51.1% TS (-1.77 rTS%)

--Against Elite Defenses (16.77% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 13.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.6 ppg on 47.8% FG, 68.0% FT and 52.7% TS (+0.50% rTS)

--Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games):--

Karl Malone (1989-01):

RS: 37.9 mpg, 10.4 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3.0 tov, 26.9 ppg on 52.6% FG, 75.9% FT and 59.1% TS (+5.98% rTS)

-Against Bad Defenses (3.50% of playoffs games): 39.8 mpg, 12.6 rpg, 1.6 apg, 2.8 tov, 26.6 ppg on 46.1% FG, 83.0% FT and 54.2% TS (+1.81% rTS)

-Against Average Defenses (33.57% of playoffs games): 41.0 mpg, 11.1 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.0 tov, 28.6 ppg on 47.9% FG, 78.9% FT, 55.5% TS (+2.58% rTS)

-Against Good Defenses (21.68% of playoffs games): 41.6 mpg, 11.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.9 tov, 26.5 ppg on 43.7% FG, 80.5% FT and 52.5% TS (-0.79 rTS%)

-Against Elite Defenses (41.26% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 11.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.7 tov, 25.4 ppg on 46.8% FG, 67.0% FT and 51.5% TS (-1.56% rTS)

-Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --

You're comparing a volume scorer with decent defense to an all-time great defender who happened to be a pretty good scorer too. This is pretty much just going off who is the best scorer and I don't think it is a surprise Malone would have a decent advantage there or at least not look worse than a defensive minded player like Duncan.

When you look at his regular season advanced stats and what he did in the regular season you'll see he underperformed in about half his post-season runs and even at his very best in the post-season he wasn't as good as multiple regular season campaigns. David Robinson has a similar career where he never quite lived up to his regular season standards in the post-season but Robinson was much more consistent year to year and never really had the complete stinkers Malone had. If you don't perform in the post-season you can't be top 10 all-time imo.

Name another player who faced Elite plus All Time Great Defenses 41% of their playoff games. There's only one player ahead of him in difficulty of playoffs defenses faced in the playoffs, and that's Wilt Chamberlain, at 45%. He faced the toughest defenses ever.

Of course Wilt/Malone regressed in the playoffs; they were both facing the toughest defenses of their respective eras, by far.

[Dutchball97]

This narrative the Karl Malone was poor in the playoffs has been debunked. His numbers don't look as great at Duncan's- relatively speaking- because he faced much better defenses in the playoffs in his prime:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300

I've been collecting stats for a while and I decided to make this post here. I separated some superstars offensive production in playoffs based on defense (RS ORtg) faced. Here are my (random) criteria:

Over +2.0 rDRtg - Bad Defense
From +2.0 to -2.0 rDRtg - Average Defense
From -2.0 to -4.0 rDRtg - Good Defense
From -4.0 to -7.0 rDRtg - Elite Defense
Below -7.0 rDRtg - All-Time Great Defense

Tim Duncan (1998-08):

RS: 37.2 mpg, 11.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.8 tov, 21.6 ppg on 50.8% FG, 68.4% FT and 55.3% TS (+2.77% rTS)

--Against Bad Defenses (6.45% of playoffs games): 39.5 mpg, 10.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.6 tov, 26.7 ppg on 48.1% FG, 75.9% FT and 56.6% TS (+4.38% rTS)

--Against Average Defenses (64.52% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 12.5 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.4 ppg on 51.8% FG, 68.5% FT, 56.6% TS (+3.88 rTS%)

--Against Good Defenses (12.26% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 14.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, 3.2 tov, 23.6 ppg on 45.8% FG, 69.0% FT and 51.1% TS (-1.77 rTS%)

--Against Elite Defenses (16.77% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 13.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.6 ppg on 47.8% FG, 68.0% FT and 52.7% TS (+0.50% rTS)

--Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games):--

Karl Malone (1989-01):

RS: 37.9 mpg, 10.4 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3.0 tov, 26.9 ppg on 52.6% FG, 75.9% FT and 59.1% TS (+5.98% rTS)

-Against Bad Defenses (3.50% of playoffs games): 39.8 mpg, 12.6 rpg, 1.6 apg, 2.8 tov, 26.6 ppg on 46.1% FG, 83.0% FT and 54.2% TS (+1.81% rTS)

-Against Average Defenses (33.57% of playoffs games): 41.0 mpg, 11.1 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.0 tov, 28.6 ppg on 47.9% FG, 78.9% FT, 55.5% TS (+2.58% rTS)

-Against Good Defenses (21.68% of playoffs games): 41.6 mpg, 11.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.9 tov, 26.5 ppg on 43.7% FG, 80.5% FT and 52.5% TS (-0.79 rTS%)

-Against Elite Defenses (41.26% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 11.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.7 tov, 25.4 ppg on 46.8% FG, 67.0% FT and 51.5% TS (-1.56% rTS)

-Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --

You're comparing a volume scorer with decent defense to an all-time great defender who happened to be a pretty good scorer too. This is pretty much just going off who is the best scorer and I don't think it is a surprise Malone would have a decent advantage there or at least not look worse than a defensive minded player like Duncan.

When you look at his regular season advanced stats and what he did in the regular season you'll see he underperformed in about half his post-season runs and even at his very best in the post-season he wasn't as good as multiple regular season campaigns. David Robinson has a similar career where he never quite lived up to his regular season standards in the post-season but Robinson was much more consistent year to year and never really had the complete stinkers Malone had. If you don't perform in the post-season you can't be top 10 all-time imo.

Name another player who faced Elite plus All Time Great Defenses 41% of their playoff games. There's only one player ahead of him in difficulty of playoffs defenses faced in the playoffs, and that's Wilt Chamberlain, at 45%. He faced the toughest defenses ever.

Of course Wilt/Malone regressed in the playoffs; they were both facing the toughest defenses of their respective eras, by far.

You already made that point but it isn't nearly enough to explain the drop in impact Malone had from the regular season to the post-season. In 1993 Karl Malone lost to the Sonics in the first round and had a gamescore of 14.7, PER of 16.6, WS/48 of .085 and BPM of 1.2. Sure the Sonics were the 2nd best defense in the league but is that an excuse for Malone to turn into a glorified roleplayer? Why didn't Hakeem in the 2nd round or Barkley in the WCF experience a similar drop in performance?