Does Embiid even have the defense argument over Jokic now?

[itsxtray]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Yet your eye test is better despite all evidence to the contrary.

Yes it actually is for defense. I know you guys are all about advanced stats, but it truly doesn't capture defense the same way. Also, defensive metrics, put a huge value on rebounds, something that Jokic has done really well this year. Is that a coincidence that his best defensive year, is also the year, where he has a career high in rebounds?

Also, rebounds do not equate defense. For some players they do, but for many it doesn't. If it did players like Sabonis, Andre Drummond, Vucevic would be considered the best defenders in the game on an annual basis.

My guy, you contradict yourself in your own post. If advanced metrics weigh rebounds so heavily and thats the reason why Jokic is so good at defense in these metrics why wasn't Drummond, Sabonis, or Vucevic doing as well as Jokic in those stats? Also, You know not every advanced stat uses the box score right? And Jokic is still grading out better even in those stats.

Now, im not someone who actually believes Jokic is a better defender than Embiid especially when both are locked in, but this regular season all evidence points to Jokic.

[DroseReturnChi]

Embiid is the better defender still but hes overrated on defense.

Immense rim protector and shotblocker but weak in alot of areas. Poor pickandroll coverage, not great switching out or contesting jumpshots. Ppl talk about his defense like hes Pat Ewing or Hakeem and hes nowhere close to them. His defense is much more to that of a prime Marcus Camby who was a good defender but not elite even tho he won Dpoy undeservingly.

We exposed Embiids defense in playoffs when he didnt have Ben swept him with no resistance almost all games blowouts. Ppl point to his on/off playoff numbers in 19 but he had 2 of the best wing defenders in Ben and Jimmy with him and no big man backup which inflated his numbers.

embiid is not a great defender at all he is a traditional center. the only great defender was simmons and thybulle.
now that simmons is gone and replaced with one of worst harden, sixers will be exposed.
if embiid was way better on defense than jokic, he would have been mvp by now. the sad truth is jokic is literally better at everything joel doesnt know how to utilize his athleticism fully like lebron.

[The Rebel]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Yet your eye test is better despite all evidence to the contrary.

Yes it actually is for defense. I know you guys are all about advanced stats, but it truly doesn't capture defense the same way. Also, defensive metrics, put a huge value on rebounds, something that Jokic has done really well this year. Is that a coincidence that his best defensive year, is also the year, where he has a career high in rebounds?

Also, rebounds do not equate defense. For some players they do, but for many it doesn't. If it did players like Sabonis, Andre Drummond, Vucevic would be considered the best defenders in the game on an annual basis.

Considering the people that actually watch Jokic are saying the stats are close and that he has become a very good defender, then taking the word of one guy who obviously don't watch or understand what he is watching only works for Embiid stans that cannot see the truth.

If all advanced defensive stats put such a high value on rebounds than shouldn't the top rebounders per minute also lead the advanced defensive stats? Also if rebounds, you know getting the actual ball in your hands, don't help on defense than why do so many coaches and analyst continue to talk about teams needing to improve their rebounding? By the way not all defensive stats use box scores (I am sure you know that by now), yet they all clearly show Jokic has been better than Embiid on defense this year.

Fact is Jokic does all the little stuff, while Embiid can barely be bothered to do anything that does not result in a highlight play.

Jokic leads all Centers with deflections
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/hustle/?sort=DEFLECTIONS&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&CF=G*GE*30

He is 2nd in the league for steals by a center
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=STL&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*30&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C

He is 4th in the league on shots contested
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS&dir=1

4th in the league on box outs
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/box-outs/?sort=BOX_OUTS&dir=1&PerMode=Totals

He allows a shooting percentage over a half percent lower than Embiid despite contesting 3 more shots per game.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=D_FG_PCT&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*30


So no it is not just advanced box score stats that say Jokic is better, it is every hustle stat that indicates how a player performs on defense, it is every advanced stats based on plus minus, and it is easy to see with the eye test if someone understands that there is more to defense than highlight blocks at the rim. So please let's hear a coherent argument about why Embiid is better on defense this year than Jokic is, without just saying because Embiid homers say so.

[PhilBlackson]

Watch on YouTube

Lol sorry I had to...

[The Rebel]

Watch on YouTube

Lol sorry I had to...

Nobody has to share this ignorant idiots videos, but I guess some people just cannot form their own opinions and need help by guys who intentionally act like an dumbass on national tv.

[DCasey91]

Remains to be seen in the playoffs as last year I was very disappointed in his defensive efforts against the Blazers where it was basically 10 witches hats on the court.

Embiid has monster impact on that end but for the regular season I can see Jokic being more consistent/smarter/better awareness positional wise.

I watch them both a lot. Embiid just goes through the motions every single year. Love him but he’s a moody s.o.b lol. Has this awful hands down habit ever since his second year in the league.

Seen him on more than a few occasions not even contest a small guard and turning his back looking at the rim for a rebound not a good look.

Jokic is the better rebounder, best hands in the comp like it’s not even an argument and a smarter operator back there. But something is different this year. He’s making a concentrated effort so I really do hope it translates in the Playoffs.

I mean a pick your pocket version of Gasol on defence and Bird + Dirk on offence is a lock top ten player of all time.

[BelgradeNugget]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Fore those who think Embiid is significantly better at pick/roll defense
Surprise starts as 4:00

Watch on YouTube

;t=839s

[sca]

Spoiler:

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Joel Embiid had a defensive rating of 101, 100, 110, and 104 in the last 4 years in the playoffs

Jokic

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year#:~:text=Nikola%20Jokic%20had%20a%20defensive%20rating%20of%20108.8%20in%202018%2D19.

Defensive rating of 108, 112 and 120.

Also, if you want to talk about impact, look at their plus minus in the playoffs.

Embiid last 4 years

+43, +143, -53 and +121

Jokic last 3 years

+84, -14, -87

I wonder who is not in the same league looking at these numbers...

Compare Embiid's defensive rating to Gobert's in the playoffs, who is widely considered a generational defender...

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/gobert-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Gobert's were 104, 103, 105, 115, and 117.

So Gobert is not as good in the playoffs, especially in the last two years, and Embiid's best years, is comparable to one of the best defenders of all time in the playoffs.


As for this season, Jokic has improved considerably, but is probably a slightly above average defender now. Not in the same realm as Embiid though.

Unless you can prove that they played against the same opponents with the same teams (and you can’t), these numbers don’t mean jack s**t. You can’t compare DRTG or +/- of individual players like that, especially in the play-offs.

[eyeatoma]

This is basically a Jokic circle jerk. The GB in a nutshell. Y'all have fun, but I'm out. These discussions are pointless. All the usual suspects are in here.

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[The Rebel]

This is basically a Jokic circle jerk. The GB in a nutshell. Y'all have fun, but I'm out. These discussions are pointless. All the usual suspects are in here.

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You could have said you don't have an argument instead of attacking people because you are wrong.

[eyeatoma]

This is basically a Jokic circle jerk. The GB in a nutshell. Y'all have fun, but I'm out. These discussions are pointless. All the usual suspects are in here.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

You could have said you don't have an argument instead of attacking people because you are wrong.

I'm not wrong, this thread is full of Jokic fans. That's a fact.

[DroseReturnChi]

This is basically a Jokic circle jerk. The GB in a nutshell. Y'all have fun, but I'm out. These discussions are pointless. All the usual suspects are in here.

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because embiid will never be better than jokic. im a jokic fan but can already tell the intelligence difference is alarming.
somebody needs to tell joel to try defense like ben, playmaking like ben. he has learned nothing from ben.
the moment a center expend all his energy on offfense, you know its over.

[eyeatoma]

This is basically a Jokic circle jerk. The GB in a nutshell. Y'all have fun, but I'm out. These discussions are pointless. All the usual suspects are in here.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

because embiid will never be better than jokic. im a jokic fan but can already tell the intelligence difference is alarming.
somebody needs to tell joel to try defense like ben, playmaking like ben. he has learned nothing from ben.
the moment a center expend all his energy on offfense, you know its over.

You are also one of his biggest haters, and have been in every thread about the Sixers, Ben Simmons or Joel, making trollish posts.

[eyeatoma]

That Embiid game saving block on Cole Anthony is a perfect example of the athletic advantage Embiid has over Jokic which just has him on another level as a defener.

Now I know everyone is going to show all the game save blocks that Jokic has this year, but Embiid has been doing this stuff his whole career.

[Heej]

Embiid peaks higher than Jokic on defense with his athleticism but tbh Jokic's IQ makes him consistently in the right spot a lot on defense. And for a big man, being a deterrence is everything. Great hands too

[Peregrine01]

One thing on the whole teammate debate - all of Jokic's starting teammates are sporting a negative D-Lebron rating. While Embiid has 2 starting teammates sporting positive D-Lebron ratings (Thybulle and Green).

[dhsilv2]

Well, every Sixer defender outside of Ben SImmons is horrible.

Harris is not horrible, he's an above average defender, not a great one but completely competent and fine. Last year in the playoffs Thybulle was 5th in minutes. He was horrible? Say what? George hill, Danny Green? Dude....you're on drugs!

At best Harris is an average defender, who is able to do a few good things on occasion.

Danny Green barely played in the playoffs last year, he was injured. George Hill didn't get much playing time, and was a bust for us in our trade acquisition. Thybulle is great I agree, but he also takes a lot of risks, and can't be kept on the floor very much.

Green was 7th in minutes for the 76ers in the playoffs. Hil was 6th. So basically of the top 7 guys on the 76ers in playoff minutes.

Harris - by your statement, average...so not horrible as you earlier stated.
Simmons - obviously good
Curry - ok horrible
Embiid - no perimeter and the discussion point
Thybulle - great as you said
Green - Solid
Hill - solid

Who are there horrible defenders? Those 7 guys made up 76% of philly's playoff minutes.

[JayMKE]

So I guess next year is when Embiid and Jokic get "voter fatigued" for not going anywhere in the playoffs again? Such a stupid narrative to exclude Giannis.