Kevin Love has never made the playoffs without LeBron

[Goomba3666]

This thread is incredible.

2013-2014 Timberwolves = Empty stats for Love.
(40-42 record)

Meanwhile...

2021-2022 Lakers = Very important stats for Bron.
(33-49)


This tells sums up Lebron stans in a nutshell. There's no such thing as logic, consistency, or a constant barometer for defining 'success'. There's only the next talking point to prop up Lebron.

[TheLand13]

It ain’t because as a go to guys he’s never made the playoffs that’s a fact and the premise of the thread great 6th man hooray I can name 20 better 6th men

Again, tell me what his teams were when he was the first option and explain to me in detail how those were his fault. I’ll wait.

The part that was his fault was he was putrid defensively every season of his career

Kevin was a short armed, slow footed and undersized PF. Were there parts of his defensive game that could have improved? Sure but it wouldn’t have been enough to make him an elite defensive player, let alone a good one.

[Lalouie]

lebron's crowning acheivement

good job, lebron

[Balls Deep]

This thread is incredible.

2013-2014 Timberwolves = Empty states for Love.
(40-42 record)

Meanwhile...

2021-2022 Lakers = Very important stats for Bron.
(33-49)


This tells sums up Lebron stans in a nutshell. There's no such thing as logic, consistency, or a constant barometer for defining 'success'. There's only the next talking point to prop up Lebron.

Yeah, let’s compare a dude in his prime with a 37 year old.

[shrink]

Back when he was in Minnesota, on this board I called him the definition of empty stats on a bad team.

I got flamed constantly.

So would you call any production, “empty stats” if the player’s team doesn’t win?

Basketball is a team game. Very few players alone can make their team a winner - even PPG leader LeBron couldn’t do it this year. If you are a good player stuck on a bad team, even if you still produce, even with opposing teams able to scheme against you — idiots dismiss your work as “empty stats.”

[Goomba3666]

This thread is incredible.

2013-2014 Timberwolves = Empty states for Love.
(40-42 record)

Meanwhile...

2021-2022 Lakers = Very important stats for Bron.
(33-49)


This tells sums up Lebron stans in a nutshell. There's no such thing as logic, consistency, or a constant barometer for defining 'success'. There's only the next talking point to prop up Lebron.

Yeah, let’s compare a dude in his prime with a 37 year old.

We're the numbers empty or not? Just can't have it both ways.

[C3H6N6O6]

No, you must be mistaking me for someone else. I never said Love missing a game meant nothing.

I wasn't talking about you but LeBron haters as whole. How many times have you heard that mentioned alongside Green missing a game.
How many time have people brought up that Minnesota wanted to trade Love for Klay but Warriors said no? This was in 2014 so Klay wasn't even that big of a name.

Love to the Warriors just wouldn’t have made sense. Klay wasn’t a big name but he was already showing a great deal of potential, as was Draymond. And we have to Kai in mind that at the time, Love was looking for a max contract the following season, and golden state wasn’t willing to give him one. So it basically came down to giving up a really great up and comer for a one year rental of Kevin Love. It wouldn’t have been worth it.

Why ? Love was a superstar. Klay wasn't. Why wouldn't Warriors give a superstar a max contract?

[TheLand13]

I wasn't talking about you but LeBron haters as whole. How many times have you heard that mentioned alongside Green missing a game.
How many time have people brought up that Minnesota wanted to trade Love for Klay but Warriors said no? This was in 2014 so Klay wasn't even that big of a name.

Love to the Warriors just wouldn’t have made sense. Klay wasn’t a big name but he was already showing a great deal of potential, as was Draymond. And we have to Kai in mind that at the time, Love was looking for a max contract the following season, and golden state wasn’t willing to give him one. So it basically came down to giving up a really great up and comer for a one year rental of Kevin Love. It wouldn’t have been worth it.

Why ? Love was a superstar. Klay wasn't. Why wouldn't Warriors give a superstar a max contract?

Yeah, a deeply flawed one. Again, Klay had all the makings of an all star in him. Warriors saw the great potential that they had at the time. And the Curry/Thompson backcourt was already making a lot of noise at the time. Why on earth would you break that up?

That's not to say the Warriors had no interest in Love himself. They absolutely did. But Klay Thompson was off the books and the Warriors made that clear. But the Timberwolves didn't want to do the trade without him being involved. So in other words, there was no chance of it ever happening.

[C3H6N6O6]

Love to the Warriors just wouldn’t have made sense. Klay wasn’t a big name but he was already showing a great deal of potential, as was Draymond. And we have to Kai in mind that at the time, Love was looking for a max contract the following season, and golden state wasn’t willing to give him one. So it basically came down to giving up a really great up and comer for a one year rental of Kevin Love. It wouldn’t have been worth it.

Why ? Love was a superstar. Klay wasn't. Why wouldn't Warriors give a superstar a max contract?

Yeah, a deeply flawed one. Again, Klay had all the makings of an all star in him. Warriors saw the great potential that they had at the time. And the Curry/Thompson backcourt was already making a lot of noise at the time. Why on earth would you break that up?

That's not to say the Warriors had no interest in Love himself. They absolutely did. But Klay Thompson was off the books and the Warriors made that clear. But the Timberwolves didn't want to do the trade without him being involved. So in other words, there was no chance of it ever happening.

If 2014 Klay > 2014 K love then Love definitely wasn't a superstar.

[Goomba3666]

Here's a fact -

Both Kevin Love led his team to a better record in the West with FAR Less talent than Lebron.

It's not his fault that he played in the most stacked conference of all time where even the 48 win Suns couldn't get a spot in the playoffs, but 48 wins in the East got you 3rd seed.

[KrAzY3]

Yeah, well tell me how many championships LeBron won in Cleveland without Kevin Love. He did play there for seven years without him.

If Love was truly a superstar then please mention him missing a game in 2016 finals whenever people bring up Draymond missing a game.

I didn't assert that he was a superstar at that point in time (still all-star caliber though). However, LeBron had a 60 win Cavs team he didn't win a championship with. He also had a 66 win Cavs team he didn't win a championship with. He did win with Kyrie and Love though. Furthermore after seeing what LeBron did this year with an actual awful supporting cast, I'd think people would have more respect for the teams and players who clearly did help LeBron.

The Lakers won 33 games this year! They were under .500 with LeBron on the court! Clearly the Cavs team that won 57 games and the Finals (with Love) was a heck of a lot better than that right?

[Mind_Odyssey]

Remind me again what kind of teams Love played on without LeBron? This was the first legitimately good team he was on without him and they managed to win 44 with an injury ragged season, only missing the playoffs due to the new format.

I kind of see both points.

11-14, he was pretty sick offensively, though. He obviously took a hit going to Cleveland and playing with Lebron and Kyrie, of course. He was no defensive dynamo, and outside of 2014, he wasn't a HUGE monster offensively, but he was also young still and coming into his game. Would have been interesting to see what he might have accomplished had he a more solid team built around him as a feature, rather than slotting into the Miami Bosh role.

Him deciding to lose a crap ton of weight ruined him more than Lebron did.

He became a super finesse player without the athleticism and length to compliment that.

Imagine if Zach Randolph tried to play at 50 pounds lighter.

[SelfishPlayer]

Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were never meant to be NBA champions. LeBron did the impossible by turning them into champions.

[AbeVigodaLive]

If you knew anything about the 13-14 Timberwolves, you’d understand how stupid this thread is. The Wolves starters (led by Love) would outplay just about everyone, then have the bench come in, blow the lead, and put them behind.

Just an average bench and that’s a 50-55 win team. Love had his faults, but him and Rubio deserved better that year.

To be fair... that team was a frontrunner type of team that had great overall stats in part because they just destroyed teams... while losing close game after close game. That team was both top 10 in offense and defense until the last week of the regular season which usually indicates a definite playoff run. Only in true Timberwolves fashion, they finished below .500.

- The Timberwolves were 0 - 12 in games decided by 5 points or less to start the season. Love's stats dipped late in games. But Rubio's stats were embarrassingly bad in the 4th quarters. He went more than a month at one point without scoring a field goal in the 4th quarter. At the time, he was shooting 19% in 4th quarters, and he shot 27% or some crazy stat for the season in the 4th quarter. Worse yet, his backup JJ Barea shot something like 29% in the 4th quarters.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/1/18/5321616/ricky-rubio-timberwolves-struggling-fourth-quarter

One of the truly crazy seasons. The Expected W/L of that team was 48 - 34. They finished 40 - 42.

[jc23]

Lebron how u feel about the Op's thread?

Watch on YouTube

[tsherkin]

Remind me again what kind of teams Love played on without LeBron? This was the first legitimately good team he was on without him and they managed to win 44 with an injury ragged season, only missing the playoffs due to the new format.

I kind of see both points.

11-14, he was pretty sick offensively, though. He obviously took a hit going to Cleveland and playing with Lebron and Kyrie, of course. He was no defensive dynamo, and outside of 2014, he wasn't a HUGE monster offensively, but he was also young still and coming into his game. Would have been interesting to see what he might have accomplished had he a more solid team built around him as a feature, rather than slotting into the Miami Bosh role.

Him deciding to lose a crap ton of weight ruined him more than Lebron did.

He became a super finesse player without the athleticism and length to compliment that.

Imagine if Zach Randolph tried to play at 50 pounds lighter.

Yes, that is my recollection as well. He fit quite well alongside Lebron. His ORB dropped and he had fewer overall touches but he got his looks. Kyrie and Lebron were just better scoring options, very much like Lebron and Wade v Bosh in Miami He knew what he was signing up for.

[bbalnation]

guys love was avging 26 and 12 for a entire season he was making history.

In no way, shape or form is that "making history."

then he was a 15ppg scrub yr after and when lebron won he took all the glory. people dont realize love had to make ridiculous sacrifice for lebron as always like bosh, wad did. i refuse to believe love regressed in his prime he was pretty much forced to.

Everyone realizes that Love made a sacrifice of volume scoring to join the Cavs with Kyrie and Lebron. He did not regress, he was just sharing the ball with two other volume guys. There aren't enough possessions to go around for everyone to take 20 FGA/g, that's a given. If anything, it's a credit to Love, as it was with Bosh, to be the teammate that says "okay, I'll fill this role."

That's still immaterial to the actual discussion at hand. You can say Love wasn't a superstar (which he clearly wasn't) and still recognize that he had noteworthy offensive value to the Cavs (because he obviously did). You need to stop propping up strawmen and otherwise making stuff up.

You noted offensive value, but Chris really sacrificed to bring it defensively. I've seen a lot of bigger players anchoring defenses, so it makes sense.

The Heat defensive stats with Chris Bosh anchoring

Versus

The Cavs defensive stats with Kevin Love anchoring

Offensively:

Im curious (but not curious enough) to see what Kevins stats were like when Lebron/Kyrie were on the floor / playing

Versus

Chris' stats were like when Lebron/Dwyane were on the floor / playing

Being a 3rd option is different than playing when others are injured and/or resting. Kevins Finals stats & play usually underachieved (matchup nightmare) relative to the role of a 3rd option/ max player, but his EC play and stats were usually relatively fine (imo).

[JonFromVA]

Remind me again what kind of teams Love played on without LeBron? This was the first legitimately good team he was on without him and they managed to win 44 with an injury ragged season, only missing the playoffs due to the new format.

I kind of see both points.

11-14, he was pretty sick offensively, though. He obviously took a hit going to Cleveland and playing with Lebron and Kyrie, of course. He was no defensive dynamo, and outside of 2014, he wasn't a HUGE monster offensively, but he was also young still and coming into his game. Would have been interesting to see what he might have accomplished had he a more solid team built around him as a feature, rather than slotting into the Miami Bosh role.

Him deciding to lose a crap ton of weight ruined him more than Lebron did.

He became a super finesse player without the athleticism and length to compliment that.

Imagine if Zach Randolph tried to play at 50 pounds lighter.

I don't think he lost that weight just to land on GQ covers and wed a swimsuit model. It just so happens one of the healthiest seasons of his career has happened at age 33 when he finally transitioned to a 22 mpg bench role.

[SaveTheHens]

Pre Lebron Love had pep in his step and played good even without winning, a heckuva sidekick just not an all time great and didnt have the talent or culture to win in Minnesota. After Lebron its like he's had the life sucked out of him the last couple years until these young guns came with some pep in their step & let Love do his thing as a bench guy.

Lebron doesnt make his teammates better, he emotionally widdles them down & has a big lack of awareness in how he approaches people and tries to use people around him while taking all the accollades. Kyrie? He had to gtfo. Love? Looked depressed & out of place for years, even though they didn't reach their goal this year I'm happy for the guy to have some life again. Bosh? I mean technically anxiety & acute mental stress are big contributors to clots.... but to be fair Ill just say he wasn't the same player for the two post-lebron years as he was as the man on the Raptors. Dwade didn't do anything significant afterwords either.

For all the ''right reads' that Lebron makes at the end of games he has no iconic play like Mike passing to Kerr to win a crucial game... He also makes the environment his teammates play in stressed out & wants the control without having the humility to see he needed to learn through struggle to win. He couldnt handle humility, teamed up with great players, pretty much failed with the lack of success in crucial games. He's a superstar but hes not the cream of the crop, he's an emotionally draining player that doesn't deliver when his team really needs him.

[tsherkin]

You noted offensive value, but Chris really sacrificed to bring it defensively. I've seen a lot of bigger players anchoring defenses, so it makes sense.

Just for clarity, in no way was I crapping on Bosh. He filled his role very effectively. he was a better defender for Miami than he ever was for Toronto, in part due to that reduced offensive load and his fit in their scheme.