TMac says that Kyrie & KD duo are more skilled than LeBron & Wade and Jordan & Pippen

[kumquat]

Skill wise, possibly, heart and brain....no.

[ajones9219]

Tmac also basically said Tmac is the goat....so....

[dribble1614]

in terms of actual greatness and dominance,

jordan >> lebron

jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> durant, who is too soft and weak to handle physical defenses.

look how badly durant is struggling against a physical defense. he certainly would be a worse player in the 90's due to the limitations in freedom of movement.

kyrie doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as any of these dudes.

1. jordan/pippen

2. lebron/wade



-----


3. durant/kyrie (distant third, also by far the worst duo defensively)

[Zasterror]

Skillwise,

Durant > MJ/LeBron > Kyrie > Wade > Pippen

Athleticism:

LeBron > MJ > Wade > Durant > Pippen > Kyrie

I think putting Lebron in the same tier as MJ for skills is really disrespectful to MJ. So is putting Durant over MJ.

Lebron doesn't have the footwork... or the handles... or the post moves... or the shooting technique... or the fakes... or the ability to finish with both hands... or the ability to apply english/spin... at the same level as MJ. Durant has shooting at a better level than MJ but not other skills.

Also, I don't know why there are other people likening Dwyane Wade to MJ. Kobe was the MJ-clone and both were more skilled than Wade, he did not have their refinement.

Wade was extremely skilled. Kobe basically mimic'd Jordan in almost every way and had the size and athleticism to do so, so I can't say Wade is more skilled or as skilled as MJ. However, Wade was shorter so he had to do more with less, especially when his peak athleticism was gone. People don't really appreciate how Older Wade got his points especially without a 3-point shot; it was purely just skills and savviness. Wade had excellent post moves and was a very creative dribbler/slasher that made a ton of difficult shots only a skilled player could make that size couldn't.

[KrAzY3]

Offensive skills may be? Certainly not defensive.

[khufure]

Jordan's top skill was his mind and drive. But it would be pretty useless without his body. Lebron impressed me how he improved & changed over the years. I'm not sure which had a better body, but I know Jordan had the better skills.

I wonder what Jordan would shoot for 3 if he came up in this era.

[MHeat0279]

I get that LeBron and Wade were both very physically gifted athletes in their primes but they were also excellent finishers capable of finishing with either hand in a variety of ways at the rim, and better passers than both Kyrie and KD. Also LeBron developed into a very effective post player in Miami. In Wade's case I feel like it's been so damn long since he was at his peak and "the guy" that people forgot just how absurdly talented he was. Drop 08-09 Wade in today's NBA and he would be in the running for best player in the world.

in that year it would have been really difficult to pick between him and Lebron for best player in the league. He was cooking and an exellent defense to boot.

[BrianFitz]

Do you think Bron got to top 3 all time on chance?

LeBron is the better
Rebounder
Scorer
Defender

All that takes skill, and he excels incredibly well in each.
Kyrie has the dribbles and KD has the pull-ups and all court threat to score, that’s about it.

Not all these things are a product of skill. Some are also a product of physical/athletic ability and size.

Lol now it’s because LeBron is just too big to be skilled, it has to be solely attributed to his size?

Yeah, you know what it takes to be better than someone at damn near everything in the sport? Skill. And Bron has it in spades.

I didn’t even get to playmaking where he dwarfs these two. I guess that’s all due to his physical size too though.

Everything isn't black and white bro. You're looking for a fight that's not there. If you are trying to say that Bron and Wade's freak athletic physical abilities don't help them in their all time ranking you are just being obtuse. Clearly when people are comparing "skill" it has to do with things that can be practiced and improved on the basketball court. Nobody in this thread or planet are saying LeBron isn't better than these other guys. That isn't what's being discussed.

Your first sentence was "do you think Bron got to top 3 all time on chance?". ... let me flip it to you - do you think if Bron was an average sized human being that he would have ended up as a top 3 all time player. Don't bother giving the answer. It's no.

[ungin_74]

im biased,, Dwade is my fav player of all time..but,,kyrie lebron and kd wow, amazing .. if this was based on a combination of skill + effectiveness+ impact i would have lebron at 1, Dwade 2, then kd and kyrie a distant 10

[Blame Rasho]

People have different opinions of what constitutes a skill.

Example a lot of people would say that amare studomire isn’t skilled, but how many people had his finishing ability or hands? How is he different from someone like kwame brown who couldn’t hold on to the ball if his life depended on it.

In this case, I think t Mac sees skills as shooting and dribbling as the skills to evaluate players. I think that is very narrow minded when looking at the totality of skills.in a pick and roll, who would you rather want guarding to decide to go, under, over or hedge, Irving or pippen?

[hauntedcomputer]

This is the first time I have thought of TMac in years, so...it worked.

[Maf]

Great for anyone who wonders why this guy has a nickname Tracy "firstroundexit" McGrady. Great basketball mind.

[mynameKIM]

People have different opinions of what constitutes a skill.

Example a lot of people would say that amare studomire isn’t skilled, but how many people had his finishing ability or hands? How is he different from someone like kwame brown who couldn’t hold on to the ball if his life depended on it.

In this case, I think t Mac sees skills as shooting and dribbling as the skills to evaluate players. I think that is very narrow minded when looking at the totality of skills.in a pick and roll, who would you rather want guarding to decide to go, under, over or hedge, Irving or pippen?

Kwame Brown's problem is his relatively small hand size. No amount of training can make his hands bigger. I think catching and finishing belong more to the athleticism category than skill. Some people are born with exceptional hand eye coordination. Its not really something u can learn.

When it comes down to defense. Ofcourse i'll take Pippen guarding the pick and roll over Kyrie. Pippen has insane length, amazing quickness, great anticipation, very good leaping ability.....things u cannot learn.

Anything that cannot be infinitely improved by practicing is not a skill.

For example, you can train your body to run faster ala track and field athletes. But their is a human limit to how fast that person can run. He/She is genetically limited to a certain top speed. Therefore running isn't a skill.

There is theoretically no human limit to how well a human can shoot the basketball. So shooting is a skill.

[mynameKIM]

Is defense not a skill?

Its debatable. I'd say defense is 80% athleticism and length. When was the last time u saw a laterally slow and short defender get all NBA defense nods?

A couple of great defensive players who aren’t the biggest or quickest, by NBA standards:

Tony Allen
Joakim Noah
Kirk Hinrich
Jimmy Butler
Alex Caruso

Im not even gonna comment on those players. If you dont think they have good size or good lateral movements for their position, i dont know what to say.

Also, if you’re saying if a player accomplishes something using height and length, then it’s not a skill, that’s athleticism and length, then how can KD be on this list. He’s super tall with a huge wingspan and one of his nicknames is Durantchula. So if he uses his length and speed to make a jump shot that’s a skill, but if Pippen uses his length and speed to get a steal that’s not a skill?

Yes, because Durant had to put hours in the gym to practice making that jumpshot. Whereas Pippen could get that steal without training. He's naturally just long and quick enough to get it.

While Defense isn't 100% based on athleticism. Its also experience. Its also basketball IQ. But no amount of training, no amount of basketball IQ, no amount of experience can make Isiah Thomas a great defender. At 5'9 His size is too limiting to be anything but a liability.

[NZB2323]

Its debatable. I'd say defense is 80% athleticism and length. When was the last time u saw a laterally slow and short defender get all NBA defense nods?

A couple of great defensive players who aren’t the biggest or quickest, by NBA standards:

Tony Allen
Joakim Noah
Kirk Hinrich
Jimmy Butler
Alex Caruso

Im not even gonna comment on those players. If you dont think they have good size or good lateral movements for their position, i dont know what to say.

Also, if you’re saying if a player accomplishes something using height and length, then it’s not a skill, that’s athleticism and length, then how can KD be on this list. He’s super tall with a huge wingspan and one of his nicknames is Durantchula. So if he uses his length and speed to make a jump shot that’s a skill, but if Pippen uses his length and speed to get a steal that’s not a skill?

Yes, because Durant had to put hours in the gym to practice making that jumpshot. Whereas Pippen could get that steal without training. He's naturally just long and quick enough to get it.

While Defense isn't 100% based on athleticism. Its also experience. Its also basketball IQ. But no amount of training, no amount of basketball IQ, no amount of experience can make Isiah Thomas a great defender. At 5'9 His size is too limiting to be anything but a liability.

So they have better size and lateral movement for their position than KD?

[FeatheryTouch]

If by "skills" we are only talking about offensive shooting/dribbling/footwork, I might agree with Tmac.

If "skills" includes defense, toughness, passing, physicality, leadership then I would not agree with Tmac.

[CharityStripe34]

Doesn't really matter. Some guys handle the ball better than others, or shoot better than others. Some defend better, some rebound, etc. Cool.

[CobraCommander]

If by "skills" we are only talking about offensive shooting/dribbling/footwork, I might agree with Tmac.

If "skills" includes defense, toughness, passing, physicality, leadership then I would not agree with Tmac.

I don’t even know if I agree with you about skills....actually I don’t agree with anyone about KD or Kyrie being more skilled than anyone

If it’s shooting Klay and Curry as most skilled shooters- as teammates

No one would say KD can dribble better or shoot better than Klay right?

And you can say Kyrie a better dribbler than Curry but not a better shooter...


Kyrie and KD are not as skilled defensively as Lebron and Wade or Jordan and pippen

I’m just not buying it...that just because KD can dribble well for a 7’ person and can shoot...doesn’t make them more skilled than team mates like even Kareem and Magic...

[Baski]

Not all these things are a product of skill. Some are also a product of physical/athletic ability and size.

Lol now it’s because LeBron is just too big to be skilled, it has to be solely attributed to his size?

Yeah, you know what it takes to be better than someone at damn near everything in the sport? Skill. And Bron has it in spades.

I didn’t even get to playmaking where he dwarfs these two. I guess that’s all due to his physical size too though.

Everything isn't black and white bro. You're looking for a fight that's not there. If you are trying to say that Bron and Wade's freak athletic physical abilities don't help them in their all time ranking you are just being obtuse. Clearly when people are comparing "skill" it has to do with things that can be practiced and improved on the basketball court. Nobody in this thread or planet are saying LeBron isn't better than these other guys. That isn't what's being discussed.

Your first sentence was "do you think Bron got to top 3 all time on chance?". ... let me flip it to you - do you think if Bron was an average sized human being that he would have ended up as a top 3 all time player. Don't bother giving the answer. It's no.

When you're talking about a sport that requires you to win the genetic lottery to be the worst player in the best league, talking about luck becomes silly. There is no great basketball player that didn't get where they were by chance, so what's the point bringing it up for one of them?

Also wanna add that skills like hand-eye coordination and vision are about as genetic as being able to run fast and jump high. We're always trying to discredit freak athletes but won't do the same for people who are clearly predisposed to being elite shooters or moving fluidly a la "post moves".

[mynameKIM]

A couple of great defensive players who aren’t the biggest or quickest, by NBA standards:

Tony Allen
Joakim Noah
Kirk Hinrich
Jimmy Butler
Alex Caruso

Im not even gonna comment on those players. If you dont think they have good size or good lateral movements for their position, i dont know what to say.

Also, if you’re saying if a player accomplishes something using height and length, then it’s not a skill, that’s athleticism and length, then how can KD be on this list. He’s super tall with a huge wingspan and one of his nicknames is Durantchula. So if he uses his length and speed to make a jump shot that’s a skill, but if Pippen uses his length and speed to get a steal that’s not a skill?

Yes, because Durant had to put hours in the gym to practice making that jumpshot. Whereas Pippen could get that steal without training. He's naturally just long and quick enough to get it.

While Defense isn't 100% based on athleticism. Its also experience. Its also basketball IQ. But no amount of training, no amount of basketball IQ, no amount of experience can make Isiah Thomas a great defender. At 5'9 His size is too limiting to be anything but a liability.

So they have better size and lateral movement for their position than KD?

Jesus Christ. You dont even know what you're arguing anymore.