Post-Mortem: 2021-22 Denver Nuggets

[The Rebel]

We agree here, the Nuggets front office is not the problem and most blaming them either do not know the full story with the injuries or are looking to blame anybody associated with the Nuggets. Also I will say that Reed was kept on a 2 way deal because of salary cap reasons, the Nuggets waited a few days to sign Cousins to 10 day contracts to avoid the luxury tax, no way were they going to convert Reed to a full contract when they didn't have too, but that is on ownership not the front office.


I agree the 4 guys is a good core, I disagree with your assessment of the bench. Personally I think Morris and Bones are both at their best at PG, and would actually look to move on from Morris, see if you cannot get a defensive starting SG for him.

I remember a graphic that Altitude showed about a game before Nnaji got hurt that showed Nnaji was our 2nd best perimeter defender, with his shooting I think he would make a good starter next year, and consider him the reason that we can gamble on MPJ's back. Having a 43% 3 point shooting and good defensive PF that can start in place of MPJ is important and something I think will be a long term help.

Jamychal and Jeff Green both have player options for next year that I imagine they'll exercise. I wouldn't worry much about them as they aren't good, but as long as they're bench players not seeing crucial minutes, they're fine and can eat some regular season time.

Jeff Green deserves to be here another year, he played well in a role that did not fit his game, and for the money he is fine. JaMychael is a guy that I think needs to be shipped out if he opts in. While JaMychael is a solid bench 4, he struggles in our system and is not good at rotations or protecting the paint, I do think that Malone will continue to overplay him though and keep the young guys on the bench, so he needs to move on.

I agree with keeping Boogie, but do not see any reason to sign Reed to a regular contract if you can keep him as a 2 way guy. I also think you have to bring back both Cancar and Rivers, Cancar before he got hurt had earned a spot in the rotation, with his shooting, his ability to create his own shot, and his high IQ defense I think he is someone we need off the bench next year. Rivers will likely sign for the minimum and is professional enough to not bitch if he doesn't get played for weeks, hopefully he rarely sees the court but he is a nice guy to have as your 6th guard.

I agree Barton needs replaced by a defensive SG, and Facu and Forbes would both be gone if it was up to me. Facu obviously is not fast or big enough to be effective anymore and Forbes while being a shooter is just so bad on defense that I have a hard time having him as the primary backup SG.

I have heard the same about Dozier and would welcome him back, and already discussed Harris, but would be fine with him back as well. I however am not really fine with either being the primary starter at SG without multiple perimeter defenders off the bench, neither have been the picture of dependable health wise.

I would change that to this
Jokic
Murray
MPJ
Gordon
X
Bones
X
Jeff Green -PO
NNaji
Boogie
Rivers
Cancar
FRP
X

2 way
Reed
X

With Morris, Barton, (if he opts in) JaMychael Green on the trading block for a starting SG and more picks or prospects.

I would be totally fine with Morris being on the trading block if they could get a useful return. I do think that Bones and Morris are such different players, though, that their both being point guards in theory isn't really a big issue. And as the team wasn't exactly flush with three point shooting last year, I wouldn't be super eager to trade Morris unless I really liked what Denver was getting back.

JaMychael Green I'd be fine trading, I just don't know who would offer much for him, which is why I suspect he will opt in.

I admit that I had forgotten that they'd permanently changed how many games a guy could play on a Two Way Contract (from 45 Days with the team to 50 Games). I was thinking it was just for Covid last year. That would make it more plausible to try to keep him on a two way, but I don't know. He seemed like a useful player to me and I really think he would have gotten minutes against GS's small lineups had he been on a normal contract. I'd try to get him on a minimum 1+1 and just not worry about trying to decide which stretches was worth calling him up for. He's a restricted free agent after coming off the two-way, right? I would be somewhat surprised if no team was willing to sign him for the minimum.

Reed is restricted if it was a 1 year, which I am not sure of, I read somewhere that it was a two year deal but cannot seem to find it.

[ANTETOKOUNBROS]

Please stop PM'ing me about my feels on Jokic/Nash/Rose as MVPs.

[Childs]

I think they just need to sign Markieff Morris and they will be fine

[Richard Miller]

Do you think shooting is somehow easier in a tanking team? I don't see why we'd take older data points vs. newer ones.

For sure it's easier, not like anyone is going to double him or game plan for him when they are going to be down 20 by the half time

I assure you that no one is going to double or game plan for Gary Harris on a team feature Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and several other better players.

Double no, but game plane, sure, they would exploit his weakness(es), not to mention he would've been far more pressured when shooting because everything counts, unlike on a tanking team - if he misses great, they are tanking anyway

[velkisimo]

I was looking at the list of FA SGs that would be affordable and be a good fit for Nuggets and that list looks bare. Would about Gary Payton II? Warriors fans rave about his defense and he can certainly hit a 3 at decent rate (I understand playoffs was an outlier but even for the season he is almost at 36%). I dont see him asking for a ton of money.

Payton II is fine for a bench defender, but I think we are going to have to find a starter through trade.

I guess it depends on what can be got in a trade. But I dont see much to be honest.

[MarcusBrody]

For sure it's easier, not like anyone is going to double him or game plan for him when they are going to be down 20 by the half time

I assure you that no one is going to double or game plan for Gary Harris on a team feature Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and several other better players.

Double no, but game plane, sure, they would exploit his weakness(es), not to mention he would've been far more pressured when shooting because everything counts, unlike on a tanking team - if he misses great, they are tanking anyway

What weaknesses? He's a fine shooter, a fine defender. He isn't spectacular at anything, but he's rarely going to the weakest defender or worst shooter, particularly when playing with bench units. I don't think he would be a player other teams worry about but also not one they particularly target on either side of the floor.

[Richard Miller]

I assure you that no one is going to double or game plan for Gary Harris on a team feature Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and several other better players.

Double no, but game plane, sure, they would exploit his weakness(es), not to mention he would've been far more pressured when shooting because everything counts, unlike on a tanking team - if he misses great, they are tanking anyway

What weaknesses? He's a fine shooter, a fine defender. He isn't spectacular at anything, but he's rarely going to the weakest defender or worst shooter, particularly when playing with bench units. I don't think he would be a player other teams worry about but also not one they particularly target on either side of the floor.

He's absolutely not a fine shooter. Just because he had a few ok RS games with zero pressure doesn't mean he would shoot close to 40% against top defence in a playoff setting

[Wolfgang630]

Jamal said he was only 85% back. And he’s going to look a little different next year. Sounds like he learned a lot watching the game from the bench the whole season.

[AleksandarN]

I would love to see Dejounte Murray on this team. I wonder what it would take

[The Rebel]

I would love to see Dejounte Murray on this team. I wonder what it would take

More than the Nuggets can afford to give, DeJounte Murray is an all star and someone the Spurs appear to be building around, why would they trade him unless they are getting a superstar?

[Exp0sed]

I just cringed after reading this wiretap article titled: "Nuggets Will Pay Luxury Tax 'If The Team Is Good Enough'" - https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/266761/Nuggets-Will-Pay-Luxury-Tax-If-The-Team-Is-Good-Enough

the key point is at the end: "The Nuggets have made only minimal tax payments in their history. And Denver hasn't been over the tax line since 2010. Denver is essentially at the tax line for next season with only eight players under contract. This puts them in position to pay the tax for the first time in over a decade."

I think the Nuggets are locked in to being a treadmill team now

When ownership (which never goes into the Tax, not really) claim they will go into the tax "if the team is good enough" - you know they're doomed

just like Sarver bs over the years

I think that makes the MPJ contract kind of inexcusable, i'll explain:

We always hear with the young RFA's etc, how basically the team has to match because losing the asset for nothing is not an option
That's fine (maybe) if the you give a max to a guy already producing at max level (or near it) and is young enough to improve and certainly young enough to maintain production throughout the length of the contact

however, committing so much money on potential production when we're dealing with some1 with MPJ's injury and durability concerns, I guess that's fine for a big market team, but when you're not going to go into tax and already have 2 max salaries on your payroll - how do you think that's gonna play out?

If you commit so much $$$ and the guy is hurt - u basically have no avenue to improve, so what's the plan here?
Just sign him and switch to prayer and hope?

I would argue that it would have been better to either offer him a smaller contract, if he doesn't accept that's fine
or sign and trade him, I think he might have fetched a decent return in a s&t

let's suppose Denver would have lost him for nothing (which they probably wouldn't have, it's likely to assume some kind of return but for argument sake) - they would still be players in adding a 3rd disgruntled star, or getting a productive player somewhere else - now they're just stuck, and it would eventually probably cost them assests - to move MPJ

so I kinda think they'd be better off just sign and trading him, maybe they would have binked on a first rounder, ya never know

rn - you do know: even fully healthy they have no depth and their defensive shortcomings make them probably a WCF team but not a real contender. The owner's unwillingness to go deep into tax territory limits their ability to round out their roster and that's assuming MPJ can ever become durable enough to withstand the rigor of the long NBA season, the latter part seems unlikely

[The Rebel]

I just cringed after reading this wiretap article titled: "Nuggets Will Pay Luxury Tax 'If The Team Is Good Enough'" - https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/266761/Nuggets-Will-Pay-Luxury-Tax-If-The-Team-Is-Good-Enough

the key point is at the end: "The Nuggets have made only minimal tax payments in their history. And Denver hasn't been over the tax line since 2010. Denver is essentially at the tax line for next season with only eight players under contract. This puts them in position to pay the tax for the first time in over a decade."

I think the Nuggets are locked in to being a treadmill team now

When ownership (which never goes into the Tax, not really) claim they will go into the tax "if the team is good enough" - you know they're doomed

just like Sarver bs over the years

You do realize that the Nuggets have said they would go into the luxury tax for a team good enough since the luxury tax actually came into existence don't you?

Obviously they planned on going into the tax next season as they spent the money last summer to ensure they do while knowing that Murray was going to miss most of last season.

I think that makes the MPJ contract kind of inexcusable, i'll explain:

We always hear with the young RFA's etc, how basically the team has to match because losing the asset for nothing is not an option
That's fine (maybe) if the you give a max to a guy already producing at max level (or near it) and is young enough to improve and certainly young enough to maintain production throughout the length of the contact

19 and 7.4 on 66% TS% for a 2nd year player isn't good enough for a rookie max? What about 23 and 7 on 70% TS% that MPJ put up as a 2nd option. If you don't think those stat lines get max deals off of rookie contracts all the time than you are not paying attention.

however, committing so much money on potential production when we're dealing with some1 with MPJ's injury and durability concerns, I guess that's fine for a big market team, but when you're not going to go into tax and already have 2 max salaries on your payroll - how do you think that's gonna play out?

When you already have 2 max contracts on the books and 1 will be going to 35% of the cap in 18 months, where is the money going to come from to replace the guy even if he isn't injury prone? What is the alternative when the last time you signed a big name without overpaying them was in the 1990s?

If you commit so much $$$ and the guy is hurt - u basically have no avenue to improve, so what's the plan here?
Just sign him and switch to prayer and hope?

Injuries are part of the game, in case you missed it a lot of teams have had their team's derailed by injuries, but that does not change much for the Nuggets. The question is do you even know how this Nuggets team is built? How they acquired their top players and most of their rotation?

I would argue that it would have been better to either offer him a smaller contract, if he doesn't accept that's fine
or sign and trade him, I think he might have fetched a decent return in a

Sign and trade him after he just missed last season? He would have been a free agent this summer not last summer, and at this point would have had no value, and after his season last year there was no way he would accept a non-max deal.

let's suppose Denver would have lost him for nothing (which they probably wouldn't have, it's likely to assume some kind of return but for argument sake) - they would still be players in adding a 3rd disgruntled star, or getting a productive player somewhere else - now they're just stuck, and it would eventually probably cost them assests - to move MPJ

Where is this fantasy player coming from? Who are the going to magically get to replace MPJ? How many guys are floating around out there with potential to be number 1 scorers on championship teams? I will give you a hint, about 25 teams in the league are looking for 1.

so I kinda think they'd be better off just sign and trading him, maybe they would have binked on a first rounder, ya never know

Once again who is trading for him this year? Right now, who would trade for him, because he was due to be a free agent this summer.

rn - you do know: even fully healthy they have no depth and their defensive shortcomings make them probably a WCF team but not a real contender. The owner's unwillingness to go deep into tax territory limits their ability to round out their roster and that's assuming MPJ can ever become durable enough to withstand the rigor of the long NBA season, the latter part seems unlikely

You posted this long ass rant about MPJ and Nuggets ownership while obviously not knowing more than surface information about the Nuggets, it is actually impressive how little you know about the team despite this long ass post.

The Nuggets were not just missing Murray and MPJ, they lost a total of 6 guys to season ending injuries. Dozier and NNaji were their 2nd and 3rd best perimeter defenders, hell Cancar was arguably their 4th, all 3 were injured and missed the last few months. So yes when you are missing 3 of your top 4 defenders you are going to have trouble with defense. When you lose 6 guys to season ending injuries than you are going to have trouble with depth.

Speaking of NNaji, did you know that he and MPJ are the same height? Did you know that Nnaji shot 43% from 3 and 63% TS%? Did you know that while Nnaji is not as good rebounding as MPJ he is actually a better defender than even an improved MPJ was? While he isn't as good at finishing in the paint or shooting overall, I would say having a guy going into his 3 year putting up those stats is more than a suitable replacement in case of injuries.

Do you know the Nuggets have exactly 1 guy who they drafted in the top 10? Only 2 in the lottery and they both basically missed the year. Did you know that 3 of the guys starting this year were 2nd round picks? Even when the Nuggets had great depth 3 years ago they only had 1 guy who was drafted in the lottery? Since Tim Connelly took over the front office 8 years ago they have built their entire roster off of developing late 1st and 2nd round picks as well as undrafted free agents. That is actually what makes our front office good, they are really quite bad at signing free agents and only okay at trading, but amazing at picking and developing young players. Free agents don't come to Denver unless they are overpaid, but we can build a develop a young bench as well as anybody in the league.

[Exp0sed]

I just cringed after reading this wiretap article titled: "Nuggets Will Pay Luxury Tax 'If The Team Is Good Enough'" - https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/266761/Nuggets-Will-Pay-Luxury-Tax-If-The-Team-Is-Good-Enough

the key point is at the end: "The Nuggets have made only minimal tax payments in their history. And Denver hasn't been over the tax line since 2010. Denver is essentially at the tax line for next season with only eight players under contract. This puts them in position to pay the tax for the first time in over a decade."

I think the Nuggets are locked in to being a treadmill team now

When ownership (which never goes into the Tax, not really) claim they will go into the tax "if the team is good enough" - you know they're doomed

just like Sarver bs over the years

You do realize that the Nuggets have said they would go into the luxury tax for a team good enough since the luxury tax actually came into existence don't you?

Obviously they planned on going into the tax next season as they spent the money last summer to ensure they do while knowing that Murray was going to miss most of last season.

I think that makes the MPJ contract kind of inexcusable, i'll explain:

We always hear with the young RFA's etc, how basically the team has to match because losing the asset for nothing is not an option
That's fine (maybe) if the you give a max to a guy already producing at max level (or near it) and is young enough to improve and certainly young enough to maintain production throughout the length of the contact

19 and 7.4 on 66% TS% for a 2nd year player isn't good enough for a rookie max? What about 23 and 7 on 70% TS% that MPJ put up as a 2nd option. If you don't think those stat lines get max deals off of rookie contracts all the time than you are not paying attention.

however, committing so much money on potential production when we're dealing with some1 with MPJ's injury and durability concerns, I guess that's fine for a big market team, but when you're not going to go into tax and already have 2 max salaries on your payroll - how do you think that's gonna play out?

When you already have 2 max contracts on the books and 1 will be going to 35% of the cap in 18 months, where is the money going to come from to replace the guy even if he isn't injury prone? What is the alternative when the last time you signed a big name without overpaying them was in the 1990s?

If you commit so much $$$ and the guy is hurt - u basically have no avenue to improve, so what's the plan here?
Just sign him and switch to prayer and hope?

Injuries are part of the game, in case you missed it a lot of teams have had their team's derailed by injuries, but that does not change much for the Nuggets. The question is do you even know how this Nuggets team is built? How they acquired their top players and most of their rotation?

I would argue that it would have been better to either offer him a smaller contract, if he doesn't accept that's fine
or sign and trade him, I think he might have fetched a decent return in a

Sign and trade him after he just missed last season? He would have been a free agent this summer not last summer, and at this point would have had no value, and after his season last year there was no way he would accept a non-max deal.

let's suppose Denver would have lost him for nothing (which they probably wouldn't have, it's likely to assume some kind of return but for argument sake) - they would still be players in adding a 3rd disgruntled star, or getting a productive player somewhere else - now they're just stuck, and it would eventually probably cost them assests - to move MPJ

Where is this fantasy player coming from? Who are the going to magically get to replace MPJ? How many guys are floating around out there with potential to be number 1 scorers on championship teams? I will give you a hint, about 25 teams in the league are looking for 1.

so I kinda think they'd be better off just sign and trading him, maybe they would have binked on a first rounder, ya never know

Once again who is trading for him this year? Right now, who would trade for him, because he was due to be a free agent this summer.

rn - you do know: even fully healthy they have no depth and their defensive shortcomings make them probably a WCF team but not a real contender. The owner's unwillingness to go deep into tax territory limits their ability to round out their roster and that's assuming MPJ can ever become durable enough to withstand the rigor of the long NBA season, the latter part seems unlikely

You posted this long ass rant about MPJ and Nuggets ownership while obviously not knowing more than surface information about the Nuggets, it is actually impressive how little you know about the team despite this long ass post.

The Nuggets were not just missing Murray and MPJ, they lost a total of 6 guys to season ending injuries. Dozier and NNaji were their 2nd and 3rd best perimeter defenders, hell Cancar was arguably their 4th, all 3 were injured and missed the last few months. So yes when you are missing 3 of your top 4 defenders you are going to have trouble with defense. When you lose 6 guys to season ending injuries than you are going to have trouble with depth.

Speaking of NNaji, did you know that he and MPJ are the same height? Did you know that Nnaji shot 43% from 3 and 63% TS%? Did you know that while Nnaji is not as good rebounding as MPJ he is actually a better defender than even an improved MPJ was? While he isn't as good at finishing in the paint or shooting overall, I would say having a guy going into his 3 year putting up those stats is more than a suitable replacement in case of injuries.

Do you know the Nuggets have exactly 1 guy who they drafted in the top 10? Only 2 in the lottery and they both basically missed the year. Did you know that 3 of the guys starting this year were 2nd round picks? Even when the Nuggets had great depth 3 years ago they only had 1 guy who was drafted in the lottery? Since Tim Connelly took over the front office 8 years ago they have built their entire roster off of developing late 1st and 2nd round picks as well as undrafted free agents. That is actually what makes our front office good, they are really quite bad at signing free agents and only okay at trading, but amazing at picking and developing young players. Free agents don't come to Denver unless they are overpaid, but we can build a develop a young bench as well as anybody in the league.

totally agree about being decimated by injuries, not just to MPJ and Murray. it def was the reason they were never getting out of the first round and are likely to be a WCF team with those guys back

As for Mpj s&t, I just offered it as an alternative - trading him would have been a better one (and the more relevant)

Here's where we disagree:
you say the Nuggets owners have claimed that they will go into the tax when the team will justifiy it - I just don't buy it...
all it means is that if the team can get to the Finals or a 'chip (without going into tax) - then the Owners will cough up the extra dough to retain key guys and run it back as needed - big whoop!
a finals appearence or a 'chip will obviously make them tons of money and open up new revenue streams

they aren't opening their checkbooks b4 reaching those goals


it's not about the numbers with Mpj and it's not coming out of nowhere, come on now..
The red flags were reportedly there and resposible for him slipping in the draft
so ok, you take a flyer on a guy with a high ceiling, perfectly understandable and common move
He misses his first season alltogether, then he plays 55 games following by that breakout season, in which he only played about 1900 mins over 61 games!

you don't see the problem here, just cuz he had 23 on 70% ts next to the best passing big men and a full force of gravity in Jokic?

The problem is, as I pointed out in my long rant is that it's a gamble you can't take (or shouldn't take) when ur a small market team

How does it even happen? I thought NBA doctors supposed to be top notch, he's their player..I would have imagined his back was scrutinized every which way b4 commiting to this contract, he just happens to sign it, play a few games and then have this season-ending Back\nerve issues?

it's his back, right? the same back that dropped him in the draft, caused him to miss his rookie season - that's real pro work by the team there

23/7 on 70 ts% are nice numbers but so are the 116 games he played over his first 3 seasons (i'm not counting the current season, cuz the contract was signed b4 it obviously). 116 games and 2800 mins (with subpar defense to boot) - that was his career totals (!) b4 this max and he hadn't demonstrated the ability to even be healthy consistently so ofc that's 'potential'

it all comes down to evaluating the risk - how likely is Mpj to play a full season, or full 4-5 seasons?
u say that few guys have the potential to be #1 on offense for a championship caliber team, maybe MPJ is that, those 60 games were an indication of that, for sure but if there is even a 10% chance of him being basically injured more often than not - what good does he do u?
Hard to be a number one option from the bench and harder still on the team - to replace his production while still paying him
If that's his assesment around the league as well, then he should have fetched a good return in a trade
I'm sure somewhere was a team where it made sense to make that gamble, the Nuggets imo - weren't one of those teams

As for your outline of other Nugget players, all fans are homers and think their prospects are gonna pan out etc., I def wish that for the Nuggets, as i'm a Jokic fan and would love to his Nuggets succeed

If that happens, everyone is healthy and those guys pan out (Denver does seem to pick them well in the last few years) - then yes, they might be a contender in the right circumstence but in all likelihood - they will not be.

All I said was that if ur a small market team and have ur main piece in a generational MVP caliver Center - you can't stake your future on the iffy health of another player's back
paying the max to a guy who wasn't able to play over 61 games even once..is just not a good strategy for a small market team

your rant didn't convince me otherwise
I really wish the Nuggets all the best, just feel they hampered themselves with that poor decision