Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

[JujitsuFlip]

One guy took 3 teams to the top, the other guy took one. It is LeBron in my eyes.

[OriginalRed]

Lebron's the better player and some of his rings (2016) mean way more than alot of Duncan's but I have more respect for Duncan for almost pulling an MJ and being 6-0 in the Finals while sticking with one team his entire career.

I think Lebron's titles maybe came with more fanfare because he could pretty much cruise through a terrible Eastern Conference and then play a legendary team for a championship, while Duncan and the Spurs had to slog it out with other heavyweights in the Western Conference and then, if they survived, have an anticlimactic, low-ratings Finals against an overmatched team from the "Leastern" Conference, as it was appropriately nicknamed at the time.
For example, Lebron's '16 Finals win over the Warriors is considered all-time stuff, while Duncan's win over the Nets in the '03 Finals looks very meh by comparison.
But Duncan had to beat the Kobe-Shaq Lakers (and a very good Dirk & Steve Nash Mavs team) just to get to the Finals. Can you imagine how much it would get brought up if Duncan had beat Kobe & Shaq in the Finals instead of the Conference semis?
Otoh, did that '15-'16 Cavs team play anyone notable in the East? In the Conference Finals they played the #2 seed Raps, headlined by the solid duo of Lowry-DeRozan, and #3 in Raps minutes in that series was 23-year-old Bismack Biyombo. Patrick Patterson was 4th in minutes. Demarre Carroll was 5th.
A good team, but not exactly a superteam.

Yeah, it's why I don't put too much stuck into people who try to use the Lebron competition argument, as if every opponent he faced prior to the Finals was some juggernaut. In fact, he probably had the easiest road to the Finals for like a 6-8 year stretch in NBA history so it balanced out when he had to play juggernauts in the Finals.

[Boardbreaker]

Lebron stans with the special olympics level mental gymnastics to cape for their hero

[CIN-C-STAR]

One guy took 3 teams to the top, the other guy took one. It is LeBron in my eyes.

This is such a weird way to look at it.
Duncan doesn't even get credit for 5 titles by this logic, he just gets a 1 for the # of teams he won a championship for.
I guess Bill Russell and MJ also just get a score of 1

[OriginalRed]

One guy took 3 teams to the top, the other guy took one. It is LeBron in my eyes.

Do you honestly believe Jordan or Duncan couldn't win championships with other teams in their prime if they team hopped like Lebron did?

[Heej]

Honestly as much as I think LeBron had better and more impressive playoff runs, my immediate gut reaction reading this was Tim. Just from the steadfastness and consistency; which we do have to admit is also due to him playing for the best coach and organization of his era.

Bron going to 8 straight Finals is more impressive to me than Timmy's 5 rings. But Timmy's 5 rings in SA are more impressive to me than LeBron's 4. But 4 in 3 cities is super tuff. This debate's a lot closer than people realize once you actually start to think about it. Great topic OP

[lonzo_pelota]

Some may say Lebrons 4titles propelled him to an estimated 1billion + net worth on and off the court
Some say Tim Duncans Five titles likely caused the ruin to his marriage on the way to 130million estimated net worth

[f4p]

Btw, the obsession with this collusion argument is silly and, honestly, stupid. The NBA is a collusion in itself, it's a bubble where everyone is protected. It's the opposite to real competition that would happen in a free market, with relegation, no cap, etc.

LeBron was tired of being victim to a completely inept FO for fkn 7 years, and decided to potentialize his peak. Nothing wrong with that.
He chose the best team he could, because he wants to win. Nothing wrong with that.
His team was under the same cap rules of all the others. Nothing wrong with that.

Suppose the Spurs drafted LeBron, and Cavs drafted Tim Duncan. Would the roles keep the same? It's all circunstancial.

Btw, the Heat was not a superteam. It was profoundly flawed and top heavy. He carried those teams and earned every inch of those titles. Just like Durant was absolutely decisive for those Warriors titles.

LeBron has a lot of unlikeable traits, sure. But the sheer hate we see here is just stupid. He probably raped the teams these posters support.

Keep hating.

I dont think it should be personally held against him, but I also think it's ok to acknowledge that sustaining success with one team is more difficult than jumping to the team with the most assets every few years.

yes, playing your whole career for the best coach ever, with hall of fame teammates from year 1 to year 19 (usually 2-4 at a time), it must have been an incredible strain on timmy. now carrying mo williams to 66 wins, that's the easy part.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Btw, the obsession with this collusion argument is silly and, honestly, stupid. The NBA is a collusion in itself, it's a bubble where everyone is protected. It's the opposite to real competition that would happen in a free market, with relegation, no cap, etc.

LeBron was tired of being victim to a completely inept FO for fkn 7 years, and decided to potentialize his peak. Nothing wrong with that.
He chose the best team he could, because he wants to win. Nothing wrong with that.
His team was under the same cap rules of all the others. Nothing wrong with that.

Suppose the Spurs drafted LeBron, and Cavs drafted Tim Duncan. Would the roles keep the same? It's all circunstancial.

Btw, the Heat was not a superteam. It was profoundly flawed and top heavy. He carried those teams and earned every inch of those titles. Just like Durant was absolutely decisive for those Warriors titles.

LeBron has a lot of unlikeable traits, sure. But the sheer hate we see here is just stupid. He probably raped the teams these posters support.

Keep hating.

I dont think it should be personally held against him, but I also think it's ok to acknowledge that sustaining success with one team is more difficult than jumping to the team with the most assets every few years.

yes, playing your whole career for the best coach ever, with hall of fame teammates from year 1 to year 19 (usually 2-4 at a time), it must have been an incredible strain on timmy. now carrying mo williams to 66 wins, that's the easy part.

Mo Williams wasn't on any of Lebron's title teams, and I bet Lebron will have had more HoF teammates than Timmy when all is said and done.
Nice strawman though

[nikster]

Btw, the obsession with this collusion argument is silly and, honestly, stupid. The NBA is a collusion in itself, it's a bubble where everyone is protected. It's the opposite to real competition that would happen in a free market, with relegation, no cap, etc.

LeBron was tired of being victim to a completely inept FO for fkn 7 years, and decided to potentialize his peak. Nothing wrong with that.
He chose the best team he could, because he wants to win. Nothing wrong with that.
His team was under the same cap rules of all the others. Nothing wrong with that.

Suppose the Spurs drafted LeBron, and Cavs drafted Tim Duncan. Would the roles keep the same? It's all circunstancial.

Btw, the Heat was not a superteam. It was profoundly flawed and top heavy. He carried those teams and earned every inch of those titles. Just like Durant was absolutely decisive for those Warriors titles.

LeBron has a lot of unlikeable traits, sure. But the sheer hate we see here is just stupid. He probably raped the teams these posters support.

Keep hating.

I dont think it should be personally held against him, but I also think it's ok to acknowledge that sustaining success with one team is more difficult than jumping to the team with the most assets every few years.

yes, playing your whole career for the best coach ever, with hall of fame teammates from year 1 to year 19 (usually 2-4 at a time), it must have been an incredible strain on timmy. now carrying mo williams to 66 wins, that's the easy part.

The difficult thing about sustaining success with one team is roster management. Which Duncan had next to no influence on

[CIN-C-STAR]

I don't understand people saying it's Lebron because he was the better player...
If Duncan was a worse player, isn't it an even greater accomplishment to win more titles?
Greater accomplishment =/= greater player

[f4p]

Lebron's the better player and some of his rings (2016) mean way more than alot of Duncan's but I have more respect for Duncan for almost pulling an MJ and being 6-0 in the Finals while sticking with one team his entire career.

I think Lebron's titles maybe came with more fanfare because he could pretty much cruise through a terrible Eastern Conference and then play a legendary team for a championship, while Duncan and the Spurs had to slog it out with other heavyweights in the Western Conference and then, if they survived, have an anticlimactic, low-ratings Finals against an overmatched team from the "Leastern" Conference, as it was appropriately nicknamed at the time.
For example, Lebron's '16 Finals win over the Warriors is considered all-time stuff, while Duncan's win over the Nets in the '03 Finals looks very meh by comparison.
But Duncan had to beat the Kobe-Shaq Lakers (and a very good Dirk & Steve Nash Mavs team) just to get to the Finals. Can you imagine how much it would get brought up if Duncan had beat Kobe & Shaq in the Finals instead of the Conference semis?
Otoh, did that '15-'16 Cavs team play anyone notable in the East? In the Conference Finals they played the #2 seed Raps, headlined by the solid duo of Lowry-DeRozan, and #3 in Raps minutes in that series was 23-year-old Bismack Biyombo. Patrick Patterson was 4th in minutes. Demarre Carroll was 5th.
A good team, but not exactly a superteam.

there's obviously some truth to this, but there's also some truth to the idea that the raptors seem like a joke partially because lebron kept making them into a joke (though they were poor in the playoffs in other years as well). the 2016 raptors were a 56 win team and +4.1 SRS while the 2003 lakers were a 50 win team and +2.7 SRS. were the lakers a better team? sure. shaq and kobe almost combined to average 60 ppg in the playoffs. i would much rather face lowry/derozan. but the lakers 6-8 guys in the playoffs (and that series) were 36 year old brian shaw with 28/20 shooting splits against the spurs, mark madsen (yeah, he played real minutes), and jannero pargo. and robert horry, king of the playoffs, was a starter and shot an incredible 2 for 38 on 3's in the playoffs (5.3%) and 0 for 18 against the spurs, missing a wide open would-have-been game winner against the spurs in i think game 5.

also, i think most teams would rather face 2 teams they slightly out-talent, like the spurs in the west, than facing a few easy teams and then one juggernaut, like lebron usually had to do in the finals.

[f4p]

One guy took 3 teams to the top, the other guy took one. It is LeBron in my eyes.

Do you honestly believe Jordan or Duncan couldn't win championships with other teams in their prime if they team hopped like Lebron did?

the spurs won 59 games in the year before they tanked to get duncan. and in between, they added arguably the greatest coach ever.

after tim duncan retired, the spurs, known for winning and defense under duncan, were only able to muster a 61 win season and their defense was ranked a pathetic #1 in the league. how was tim duncan able to win with such a poverty franchise. either of the spurs' 1996 season or 2017 season would be the best team/season of the last 30 years for some franchises.

after duncan's first 7 seasons in the league, he had played with a teammate who led the league in WS48 3 times (and BPM once) and had racked up 11 player seasons with robinson, parker, and ginobili. by year 7, lebron had played with mo williams. why would i think duncan could automatically win the 2016 finals or the 2020 finals at age 35? or get the 2018 cavs to the finals at age 33? or get 2 wins against the 2015 warriors? it's not like every year was 2003 for duncan. he also lost to an 8th seed, almost lost to another 8th seed, lost to a 6th seed, blew a 2-0 lead against the lakers, blew a 2-0 lead against the thunder.

[knicksNOTslick]

LeBron, easily. Look at the road he took and the competition he faced. Duncan was carried for two of his titles (07 and 14). Heck in 2007 didn't he shoot < 40% from the field in the Finals? Meanwhile LeBron always raises his game to another level the deeper he goes.

LeBron's 4 are more impactful than Jordan's 6 IMO. Harder competition, more obstacles, etc.

Threepeats are way harder to achieve than a scattered 4 titles just jumping ship to other teams to team up with other superstars. Lebron couldn't even get one threepeat.

Not a lot of teams can win 3 in a row. That shows true dominance, focus, determination and Jordan's competitive nature wouldn't allow that team to lose. Lebron needed to learn from Wade how to win.

Jordan's 6, the 2 threepeats, those are harder to get. Lebron's 4 are nowhere close.

[knicksNOTslick]

To go further, the one time LeBron faced a weak opponent in the Finals (as Duncan often did), he was +36 against the Heat. But yeah, let's blame him for the team performing poorly when his 2nd best player was Anderson Varejao at age 22 or when he faced the Warriors with Dellavadova as his second best player after Kyrie and Love got hurt or when he went up against KD, Curry, Dray, and Klay together with Larry Nance as his second best player. You're saying the Cavs were -60 with LeBron on the floor that series? No ****. He did average 34/9/10 on .620 TS%, but I'm sure Duncan would have done better and made the series competitive.

The one time? I thought Lebron's Heat were heavily favored in the Finals against the Mavs in 2011. You know the series where he crapped the bed even though he formed a super team with Wade and Bosh. Or do Lebron fans choose to forget that Finals ever happened?

[Jkam31]

Timmy is love and LeBron is hated so the outcome of this is not surprising.

If you took both of their names away I think it's hands down LeBron.

3 different teams, carried way more of the load than Tim, unquestioned best player for every ring. One of the titles was taking down the single greatest regular season team in NBA history after being down 3-1.

I know people on here can't separate their personal gripes from actual basketball.

Clown talk

[nikster]

Arguments can be made that the 2016 ring is one of the greatest ever. But the same people that make those arguments completely ignore 2012 and the bubble.

If you’re going to discredit Duncan for not being outright the best player although clearly the lynchpin then you have to make concessions the other way. Because there are some obvious ones to make.

I mean 2012 it's not at all question that Lebron completely out performed Wade, and Bosh missed like half the playoffs and struggled when he returned. If Heat won in 2011 that would have been a different story

[KyRo23]

Lebron stans with the special olympics level mental gymnastics to cape for their hero

There's really no gymnastics needed. The guy with 100% FMVP rate, or the 60% FMVP rate? So Duncan has 1 more ring, 2 of those rings he wasn't the best player. So if LeBron wins a ring while averaging 13 PPG, does that propel him? Does that really move the needle all that much?

[DoctorX]

LeBron, easily. Look at the road he took and the competition he faced. Duncan was carried for two of his titles (07 and 14). Heck in 2007 didn't he shoot < 40% from the field in the Finals? Meanwhile LeBron always raises his game to another level the deeper he goes.

LeBron's 4 are more impactful than Jordan's 6 IMO. Harder competition, more obstacles, etc.

Duncan led the Spurs in scoring and rebounds during the '07 playoffs and in the '14 Playoffs he was second in scoring and number 1 in rebounds. He definitely was not carried in either of those runs.

[DoctorX]

People get so mad at what LeBron TRIED TO build in Miami that they ignore that it mostly didn't work. Bosh lost a lot of his effectiveness as a 3rd option and Wade only really played close to his previous level for 2 years before starting to lose it due to age and injuries. In reality, LeBron faced better talent in the Finals even in his Miami run, let alone his Cleveland ring where he had to have the best series of all-time to beat a 73-win team. He definitely deserves more credit than a typical run of 4 rings. With that said, Duncan's ring in 2003, beating the Shaq and Kobe Lakers with literally no help is one of the most difficult rings ever to win as well which makes it pretty close. If I say Duncan's '03 ring is worth 2 regular rings, LeBron's '16 ring is worth 2.5 and then Duncan gets half a ring for being Kawhi's sidekick in 2014, that still leaves them even.

He wasn't Kawhi's sidekick in that '14 run. A lot of revisionist history when it comes to that playoff run. Kawhi was not the best player on that team during that run. He had his moments but statistically he was not the best player on that team. Duncan average 16-9 while Kawhi averaged 13-7 during that playoff run.