NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (part 4 - The Final MVP Countdown!)

[Sixerscan]

I have a hard time believing anyone with league pass actually thinks Jokic is one of the best defensive players on the sport. Part of making and valuing a good stat is a good smell test.

that's not what his DBPM tells us
it does not tell us he is "one of the best defensive players on the sport"
it tells us his team is conceding dramatically less points when he's on the court, at least in the rs - there's a difference!

that could be (and is) the cummlative effect of many things discussed ad nauseum itt:
you can play great defense but fail to box out \ rebound - resulting in the opponent gaining an exra possesion
so, i would imagine being one of the premier defensive rebounder in the league can help in that regard, right?

how about leading all centers in steals and defelections year after year? does that help?
Jokic probbaly has more kickballs a season than some team rosters have combined
might not seem like much, but it all adds up. offenses with 14 seconds on the clock score less than offenses with the full 24

offensive possession starting after a made basket are much less efficient than those that start after a miss and\or a turnover
Jokic "makes" a lot of baskets for himself and his teammates - it all adds up

there are a 100 indirect some such ways, in which the Nuggets concede less point because of the Joker - and the data shows that clearly year after year

I think it's time to accept that it's just the way it is and stop conflating "defensive impact" with "best defeneder"
the two are usually pretty highly correlated but not in Jokic's case (and no1 is claiming otherwise)

being that good offensively also has immense defensive value, it's no that hard to fathom imo :p

btw Jokic is also calling out opponents plays and directing traffic (correctly) when he's engaged defensively - he can use his vision on that end, to anticipate certin plays and send a teammave over to the right spot - all those things are encapuslated in these advanced stats, it's real it's not coming out of thin air

Jokic is also elite as mentioned at some "typical" defensive aspects
not just rebounding or deflections, he is also a very good post defender and very good at denying his opponent from getting position in the post etc.

yes, he's severely lacking in a few specific (and important) aspects of defense (duh)
in the rs it doesn't matter, teams aren't trying hard to exploit that and MVP is rs season award

if teams will be able to exploit it in the playoffs it will be reflected in those same numbers you guys are brushing away
how were these same defensive impact metrics for the GS series last year?

they were bad..confirming the eye test
then how come they come out very different in the regular season? be honest and answer that Q to urselves

if that same story repeats itself this post-season, it will surely hurt his "legacy" and overall stock \ atg ranking but it has no bearing on the MVP race!

teams are NOT exploiting him in the rs, maybe it's by choice (fair enough and a valid argument against him) but by choice or not - the end result is Jokic dominating in the rs, consistely, durably and is doing more with his PT to help his teammates win games when he's on the floor than any other competitor - in my world when you couple that type of producion and a high seed - you got urself an MVP

I understand what DBPM tries to do. I also know that, as shown in that tweet on the last page, b-r’s glossary on it literally allows that it overvalues guys that get steals and defensive rebounds because there are not very many box score defensive stats, to take it “with a giant grain of salt” and discount it if a guy’s reputation is obviously different from what the numbers show. So let’s do that.

[Sixerscan]

The reason those stats paint Jokic as a good defender is because good offense is conducive to good defense. Basketball is not football. We dont pause the game after a make or miss to let the defense set, its a fluid game.

Its not just a magical coincidence. These metrics have a hard time decoupling the two and if you watch the game its easy to understand why thats the case.

I don’t know specifically what you are talking about, but the all in one metrics have a hard time accounting for like 100 different variables which is why they shouldn’t be taken so seriously, at least to the point where people are acting like one person being first in a metric and another person being 4th or whatever means the first person is better and on on.

I also don’t get why people cite a bunch of different metrics like they aren’t all having trouble with addressing the same problems.

I think you're both making great points.

First, you're right: As this is a fluid field team sport, and anything that focuses on individuals only is literally just the tip of the iceberg of what's actually going on, and modern NBA franchises know this full well and don't limit themselves to individual stats like this the way the broader basketball world - dominated by fans and those communicating to fans - does.

But Sharkboy's point is also great: As this is a fluid field sport, while we might perceive specific accomplishments that can be tallied as "offensive" or "defensive", and thus the skills that enabled the achievement to be of one stripe or the other, when you consider the effects on ORtg and DRtg, the lines blur.

A player who gets a steal is performing an action of the defense, but if that steal results in an easy bucket, the net effect will be more about the team's ORtg than DRtg.

And a player who is known by his teammates to be the rainmaker of the offense may result in his teammates saving more energy for defense when the rainmaker is out there, and more for offense when he's not.

This is why I say that the overall Rtg is a much more clear-cut-real thing than ORtg or DRtg, and also why I say that we get ourselves into trouble when we try to dismiss the meaning of part of what the data is saying.

If Jokic is getting great defensive regression numbers despite not actually being good at defense, what it means is that what appears to be defensive impact statistically is actually just more offensive impact.

(To be clear, I think there's a major concern about Jokic's defense in the playoffs, but that's distinct from the regular season context of this thread.)

Sure, but it’s not like the best offensive player has these crazy defensive stats every year. He’s just vaguely making an assertion so again I’m not sure exactly what I’m refuting but I really doubt being a good offensive player has anywhere near the impact on these stats compared to him having great rebounding numbers and a high steal rate for a center so the metrics assume he’s prime Olajuwon on defense because that’s a huge portion of what it has to go on from an individual statistic standpoint.

Just as an example, Lillard is basically tied with Jokic for OBPM and has a negative DBPM.

[cupcakesnake]

Just wanted to give a brief toast to the most toxic MVP discourse that I can ever remember as a fan.

I totally get that people feel resistant to awarding 3 straight MVPs to someone who has not yet proven they are Michael Jordan. I also get that there are 2-5 other guys having MVP-level seasons. But the mental gymnastics people have gone through all year long has been exhausting.
- The racism thing sucked. It is important to examine racial bias in NBA media. A player averaging a triple-double and never missing shots on a 1 seed... probably isn't the best platform to do that on.
- Questioning what goes into advanced stats and what they tell us about players is a good thing. However, when a player is averaging a triple-double and not missing shots on a 1 ssed... it's probably not the best time to quibble over VORP.
- It's good to shine a light on other players. Embiid and Giannis are definite MVP-level players. Luka, Tatum, and Lillard are doing MVP-level things this year. Jokic fans did not need to spend the past year yelling at anyone who brought them. Your guy is averaging a triple-double and not missing shots on a 1 seed. There's no need to be insecure. Enjoy this moment and ignore the haters.
- On the flip side: people trying to poke holes in Jokic's MVP case... just stop. The man is averaging a triple-double and not missing shots on a 1 seed. You look absolutely silly trying to convince people that someone having a season like that shouldn't be the MVP.

The whole MVP discourse has been like that parable about the blind mice trying to figure out what an elephant is. People post single points on twitter and realgm and ignore the big picture. There's an NBA basketball player averaging a triple-double, hitting every shot, on a 1 seed. There's no conspiracy, agenda, or sneaky clever way to reframe the discussion or move the goal posts around. Jokic checks every single MVP box that has ever been invented.

It's wild that we have a season like that and at the same time, we have Giannis being one of the greatest 2-way performers ever, and Embiid putting up one of the most efficient volume-scoring seasons ever while also being an elite rim protector. This season is awesome! Instead we get armies of online reactionaries trying to tear down Jokic or Embiid (why not both? maybe they're both literal trash? Why not? Maybe you're all both right!)

It's wild to me that we spent a whole season spewing venom at each other over a guy averaging a triple-double and hitting every shot on a 1 seed. This is a season we're probably going to look at decades later and be like wtf was that?

In defense, the Nuggets have been underwhelming for the last few weeks. Also I'm not all that impressed by the #1 seed in a terrible conference. The West pales in comparison to the East and it's not very close.

Jokic will still probably win, but aren't you bored with that? We going to look bsck on the 2020s and is it really going to be 6 or 7 MVPs for Jokic in a decade? He's not that much better to get that level of recognition. Giannis is widely considered the best player in the league and hell only have 2 MVPs.

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Randomly bringing up details that don't matter for the MVP award are part of what has made this year's MVP debate a particularly ridiculous affair.

1. Am I "bored with that?" What does my level of excitement have to do with the MVP award? You really advocate voters should just shake things up for the sake of fun?
2. The "Nuggets have been underwhelming the last few weeks". It's an award for the whole season. Also what are you talking about that's not even true. They just dropped 2 straight so maybe you meant days instead of weeks? They've gone 13-5 in the past few weeks.
3. The West is not a terrible conference. I agree there are more clear contenders at the top of the East, but I also think the West has 13 competitive teams in it.
4. "Giannis is widely considered the best player in the league and hell only have 2 MVPs." The MVP award goes season by season. It's not about us trying to accurately reflect legacy. If Giannis or whoever else want to win the MVP, just outplay Jokic in the regular season.

[Exp0sed]

[

I understand what DBPM tries to do. I also know that, as shown in that tweet on the last page, b-r’s glossary on it literally allows that it overvalues guys that get steals and defensive rebounds because there are not very many box score defensive stats, to take it “with a giant grain of salt” and discount it if a guy’s reputation is obviously different from what the numbers show. So let’s do that.

I picked DBPM as an example because Jokic is flat out beasting in that one but it was just an example
there are other advanced metrics (box-score and non box score) who tell us roughly the same story

here's the thing, Jokic has a reputation and combined with how late \ slow \ unathletic he looks at times defending the rim etc, getting blown by for layup what have u, ppl fail to see that it's the norm

scoring is way up and players are scoring with ease, the guys with elite defensive skills and reputations get blown by just as much, they get targeted in space just as often and as succefully (roughly) etc

i think reputation + optics is just making everyone focus on the Joker and these stats are telling us a different story that is objective and isn't biased by racism \ optics \ reputation etc

Jokic is a real menace in regards to steals and deflection
how often have we heard about great rim protectors who aren't just blocking but also altering shots and deterring shot attempts all together?

Jokic is deterring in a different way
teams aren't even trying entry passes near him and are are extra carefuly with the ball, sometimes to the offense deteriment

again, just an example..

saying a specific stat like DBPM is inflating his value because he is rebounding and stealing the ball..is kinda whack
especially when the team concedes less points with him on the floor, each and every season

how is that possible, if he's such a defensive liability?
don't more teams wanna win?

[Exp0sed]

I don’t know specifically what you are talking about, but the all in one metrics have a hard time accounting for like 100 different variables which is why they shouldn’t be taken so seriously, at least to the point where people are acting like one person being first in a metric and another person being 4th or whatever means the first person is better and on on.

I also don’t get why people cite a bunch of different metrics like they aren’t all having trouble with addressing the same problems.

Sure, but it’s not like the best offensive player has these crazy defensive stats every year. He’s just vaguely making an assertion so again I’m not sure exactly what I’m refuting but I really doubt being a good offensive player has anywhere near the impact on these stats compared to him having great rebounding numbers and a high steal rate for a center so the metrics assume he’s prime Olajuwon on defense because that’s a huge portion of what it has to go on from an individual statistic standpoint.

have you considerd not all good offense is created equal?

example A. - a player scores within the flow of the offense, with members of his team already starting to get back on defense before the play is even done

example B. - a player scores in a drive but ends up on the floor while the opponent inbounds and starts a possesion after a made basket but - 4 on 5 on the floor

see what i mean?
playstyle, i.Q, statetegy etc. are all in play

not all great offensive players have an innate "fixed" contribution to their team's defenses that's true
but some do more than others and like I said - in the rs, Jokic has clearly been that guy

[Johnny Firpo]

Jokic will still probably win, but aren't you bored with that? We going to look bsck on the 2020s and is it really going to be 6 or 7 MVPs for Jokic in a decade? He's not that much better to get that level of recognition. Giannis is widely considered the best player in the league and hell only have 2 MVPs.

Giannis will definitely win more MVPs in the future, and obviously Jokic will not win another one at least until he makes the final, and probably not going to win a 4th one ever, if he wins this year. There is no way he makes another jump next year in the regular season, there is nowhere to jump to, he will never be a good rim protector. Also, Embiid can still win this, Giannis and the Bucks doesn't care about his MVP campaign, he sits out games, so Embiid can still win, and honestly, seeing how toxic reddit Sixers page is, or here in RealGM, that might be a good thing. At this point it would be therapy for you guys, the entire fanbase hates Jokic with a passion, which is said to see when the guy never had a bad word about anyone, and highly respects Embiid.

[payton2kemp]

Giannis should win this but he probaby wont. Best record in the NBA and playing incredible defense. He's a much better defender than Jokic.

[csh 19792001]

Giannis should win this but he probaby wont. Best record in the NBA and playing incredible defense. He's a much better defender than Jokic.

Since when does the MVP miss 15-20 games?

[Sixerscan]

saying a specific stat like DBPM is inflating his value because he is rebounding and stealing the ball..is kinda whack
especially when the team concedes less points with him on the floor, each and every season

It certainly is inflating because those are basically 2 of only 3 individual inputs (the other being blocks) that we have in the box score to give value to players (as opposed to lineups). And so they are given outsized value, because other defensive stuff that we would all agree is valuable does not show up in the box score. Which is how you get results like:

Aaron Gordon: Nuggets give up 112.3 per 100 with him on the court, he has a -0.4 DBPM
KCP: Nuggets give up 112.8 per 100 with him on the court, he has a +0.6 DBPM
Jokic: Nuggets give up 113 per 100 with him on the court, he has a +4.4 DBPM

If you think that's a well calibrated split of the "credit" IDK what to tell you, agree to disagree.

[Infinite Llamas]

Giannis should win this but he probaby wont. Best record in the NBA and playing incredible defense. He's a much better defender than Jokic.

How the heck can you be MVP if you miss 20 percent of your teams games? Help me out here…

[Infinite Llamas]

Jokic has the ballhawk mentality of guys like Payton and Blaylock but he’s in a centers body. He would be an amazing perimeter defender with a different frame based on his intelligence and fast hands. He’s clearly miscast as a rim protector. He gives up layups because he’s too important to his team to be in foul trouble. He will never be a great defender, but he does enough things well that makes him passable.

[Doctor MJ]

Sure, but it’s not like the best offensive player has these crazy defensive stats every year. He’s just vaguely making an assertion so again I’m not sure exactly what I’m refuting but I really doubt being a good offensive player has anywhere near the impact on these stats compared to him having great rebounding numbers and a high steal rate for a center so the metrics assume he’s prime Olajuwon on defense because that’s a huge portion of what it has to go on from an individual statistic standpoint.

have you considerd not all good offense is created equal?

example A. - a player scores within the flow of the offense, with members of his team already starting to get back on defense before the play is even done

example B. - a player scores in a drive but ends up on the floor while the opponent inbounds and starts a possesion after a made basket but - 4 on 5 on the floor

see what i mean?
playstyle, i.Q, statetegy etc. are all in play

not all great offensive players have an innate "fixed" contribution to their team's defenses that's true
but some do more than others and like I said - in the rs, Jokic has clearly been that guy

Great points.

The thing is that regardless of which players are actually better or worse, a team's strategy my be shifting apparent offensive vs defensive impact by metrics like this.

A team's strategy can affect a player's overall impact as well of course, but while that's not necessarily the player's fault in terms of what it says about how good he is in the abstract, it does say something real about his on-court value presuming we have enough sample to have confidence in what we see.

ORtg vs DRtg-wise though, all more sample tells us is that the data isn't do to noise, not that it has to be the product of the side of the court it purports to speak to.

[Doctor MJ]

Jokic has the ballhawk mentality of guys like Payton and Blaylock but he’s in a centers body. He would be an amazing perimeter defender with a different frame based on his intelligence and fast hands. He’s clearly miscast as a rim protector. He gives up layups because he’s too important to his team to be in foul trouble. He will never be a great defender, but he does enough things well that makes him passable.

Good points, here's how I see it:

Jokic will always be a player with clear strengths and weaknesses. Given the extent of his weaknesses on defense, I doubt I'll ever feel comfortable calling him a great defender, but I'm not so bold as to assert that it's outside the realm of possibility that his defensive strengths can in fact grow greater than his weaknesses...and I think it's actually pretty likely he's actually already managed this in the regular season within the context in Denver that's been built around him.

Would I expect him to be a net positive defender when dropped in a random context? Absolutely not.

More important to me though is this question:

Has he reached the point where he can remain a net positive defender against strategically aggressive playoff opponent? I'm skeptical, and will have to really, really see it before I'm convinced.

[Exp0sed]

anyone who doesn't think these metrics are calling this correctly needs to rewatch the first half of this Nuggets\Nets game

[rim213221]

Jokic is MVP. Unanimous. Best season he’s ever had which is crazy for the reigning 2-time MVP. What a legend.

Late second round unathletic stiff nobody thought would amount to anything turning into this historically dominant offensive juggernaut. Well deserved on his 3rd straight MVP. Hope the Nuggets go all the way to the Finals.

[eyeatoma]

There’s a weird thing going on where everyone acknowledged that DBPM was a flawed stat for a long time (see Duncan and KG being the examples there), but then when people realized RPM wasn’t very good people just went back to using BPM as opposed to just acknowledging we don’t have good public-facing all-in-one defensive metrics at this time. Not sure how that happened. Nor how Nate Silver became an authority on the NBA.

The reason advanced stats are held in such high regards is because a lot of the media have made their careers on analyzing this. For them to come to grips that their life's work is a bit of a sham is why they can't let go of the reigns.

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The reason advanced stats / analytics are a big part of all sports is because...they help teams win. Look at the most recent dynasty, for example...

https://the-cauldron.com/understanding-the-data-the-golden-state-warriors-and-the-role-of-analytics-37c1b387c7b1

https://www.sfexaminer.com/archives/how-the-warriors-use-data-analytics-to-engineer-more-wins/article_c2565040-6887-5f50-a6f4-47ec0efc4758.html

Nobody is saying that ONE advanced stat is perfect. But when you look across a large # of them, and they're telling you the same thing...it's difficult to discount it. Add onto it the traditional stats as well and Jokic is in a league of his own.

Go tell any GM in the league "Advanced stats are worthless" and they'll laugh in your face. But what do they know

I just mentioned the guy who invented the advanced stats conference, Daryl Morey. Even he thinks they need to be taken with a grain of salt. Also, a lot of the stats they have are not made available to the public. At no point have I ever said all advanced stats are worthless. Any GM worth their salt who only uses advanced stats is probably not doing a great job either.

[HotRocks34]

Embiid has a heartbeat now, assuming Denver loses today.

Nuggets are on a downswing now, and Giannis is missing games.

Still an uphill battle for Embiid, but much better spot than he was in recently.

[eyeatoma]

Just wanted to give a brief toast to the most toxic MVP discourse that I can ever remember as a fan.

I totally get that people feel resistant to awarding 3 straight MVPs to someone who has not yet proven they are Michael Jordan. I also get that there are 2-5 other guys having MVP-level seasons. But the mental gymnastics people have gone through all year long has been exhausting.
- The racism thing sucked. It is important to examine racial bias in NBA media. A player averaging a triple-double and never missing shots on a 1 seed... probably isn't the best platform to do that on.
- Questioning what goes into advanced stats and what they tell us about players is a good thing. However, when a player is averaging a triple-double and not missing shots on a 1 ssed... it's probably not the best time to quibble over VORP.
- It's good to shine a light on other players. Embiid and Giannis are definite MVP-level players. Luka, Tatum, and Lillard are doing MVP-level things this year. Jokic fans did not need to spend the past year yelling at anyone who brought them. Your guy is averaging a triple-double and not missing shots on a 1 seed. There's no need to be insecure. Enjoy this moment and ignore the haters.
- On the flip side: people trying to poke holes in Jokic's MVP case... just stop. The man is averaging a triple-double and not missing shots on a 1 seed. You look absolutely silly trying to convince people that someone having a season like that shouldn't be the MVP.

The whole MVP discourse has been like that parable about the blind mice trying to figure out what an elephant is. People post single points on twitter and realgm and ignore the big picture. There's an NBA basketball player averaging a triple-double, hitting every shot, on a 1 seed. There's no conspiracy, agenda, or sneaky clever way to reframe the discussion or move the goal posts around. Jokic checks every single MVP box that has ever been invented.

It's wild that we have a season like that and at the same time, we have Giannis being one of the greatest 2-way performers ever, and Embiid putting up one of the most efficient volume-scoring seasons ever while also being an elite rim protector. This season is awesome! Instead we get armies of online reactionaries trying to tear down Jokic or Embiid (why not both? maybe they're both literal trash? Why not? Maybe you're all both right!)

It's wild to me that we spent a whole season spewing venom at each other over a guy averaging a triple-double and hitting every shot on a 1 seed. This is a season we're probably going to look at decades later and be like wtf was that?

In defense, the Nuggets have been underwhelming for the last few weeks. Also I'm not all that impressed by the #1 seed in a terrible conference. The West pales in comparison to the East and it's not very close.

Jokic will still probably win, but aren't you bored with that? We going to look bsck on the 2020s and is it really going to be 6 or 7 MVPs for Jokic in a decade? He's not that much better to get that level of recognition. Giannis is widely considered the best player in the league and hell only have 2 MVPs.

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Randomly bringing up details that don't matter for the MVP award are part of what has made this year's MVP debate a particularly ridiculous affair.

1. Am I "bored with that?" What does my level of excitement have to do with the MVP award? You really advocate voters should just shake things up for the sake of fun?
2. The "Nuggets have been underwhelming the last few weeks". It's an award for the whole season. Also what are you talking about that's not even true. They just dropped 2 straight so maybe you meant days instead of weeks? They've gone 13-5 in the past few weeks.
3. The West is not a terrible conference. I agree there are more clear contenders at the top of the East, but I also think the West has 13 competitive teams in it.
4. "Giannis is widely considered the best player in the league and hell only have 2 MVPs." The MVP award goes season by season. It's not about us trying to accurately reflect legacy. If Giannis or whoever else want to win the MVP, just outplay Jokic in the regular season.

The point I am tryin to make in number 1 is that there are a number of amazing players in the league this decade. To have 1 player win MVP 3 years in a row, with not evening having a championship under his belt? It shows that even though he's incredibly effective in the regular season in helping his team win, when offenses focus on targeting him in the playoffs, he becomes a defensive liability. If an MVP can be targeted that easily in the playoffs, where they can become a hindrance to your team (defensively speaking), I don't think they are worth of 3 time MVP. I also don't think they are that much better than their competition to have won it that many times. The criteria being used to determine their effectiveness in the regular season is also one that magnifies their playing style. Jokic is so unique, advanced stats love him. They'll always love him. He's going to win more MVPs at this rate, and yes, it is going to be boring. He is not LeBron, is isn't Bird, he is not Giannis. He's an excellent player who might make the finals this year, but he has clear weaknesses as a two way player that the other 3 major candidates do not have.

As for the West, competitive isn't enough man, The kings are a good team, the Lakers have been roadkill most of the season. The Pelicans are no longer good without Zion, the Suns have just started coming on, The Grizzlies are too young and immature, and the Warriors are unbelievably inconsistent. There is not a single team that is over 700 in the west, and there are three teams under .600, with the 8th seed 2 games over .500. Meanwhile in the east there is one team over 700, another nearly there, 2 more teams over .600 and only 2 at .500. IN the play in you have one team that would be in the playoffs in the West and the other nearly making the top 6 if they were in that conference. IMO it's not that competitive. But that's my opinion, and obviously your entitled to yours.

Funny you bring up this is a full season award. Last year Embiid was leading the straw poll at the all star break. He had "a few of subpar games and losses after that, and lost the MVP to Jokic, who turned it up". It was used as one of the reasons by the media to award Jokic. Embiid is doing the same thing now, but it doesn't count this year? This is moving the goal posts, once again.

[eyeatoma]

Jokic will still probably win, but aren't you bored with that? We going to look bsck on the 2020s and is it really going to be 6 or 7 MVPs for Jokic in a decade? He's not that much better to get that level of recognition. Giannis is widely considered the best player in the league and hell only have 2 MVPs.

Giannis will definitely win more MVPs in the future, and obviously Jokic will not win another one at least until he makes the final, and probably not going to win a 4th one ever, if he wins this year. There is no way he makes another jump next year in the regular season, there is nowhere to jump to, he will never be a good rim protector. Also, Embiid can still win this, Giannis and the Bucks doesn't care about his MVP campaign, he sits out games, so Embiid can still win, and honestly, seeing how toxic reddit Sixers page is, or here in RealGM, that might be a good thing. At this point it would be therapy for you guys, the entire fanbase hates Jokic with a passion, which is said to see when the guy never had a bad word about anyone, and highly respects Embiid.

Really? That's what they said this year, and then they found a reason to possibly give him a 3rd. Also I have nothing against Jokic. I have something against the media, and the voting process, as well as the constant moving of goal posts.

[eyeatoma]

Jokic has the ballhawk mentality of guys like Payton and Blaylock but he’s in a centers body. He would be an amazing perimeter defender with a different frame based on his intelligence and fast hands. He’s clearly miscast as a rim protector. He gives up layups because he’s too important to his team to be in foul trouble. He will never be a great defender, but he does enough things well that makes him passable.

Lol, you seriously just compared Jokic to Gary freaking Payton. WOW!