Jokic Making a lot of folks look dumb

[Peregrine01]

There is a glaring difference in defensive scheme against the 2 players, which I know might sound counterintuitive based on how good Jokic is offensively, but Joel's manner of scoring is such that teams HAVE to load up on him to prevent a consistent stream of buckets. Horford is a great defender but the Celtics collapse on Joel every time he touches the ball. It was more glaring than ever in the quadruple doink Raptors series because they straight up didn't put a body on Ben Jokic on the other hand sets his teammates up for easy buckets so naturally defenders have to stick their man accordingly.

There's also the fact that Embiid is in another universe defensively, which conveniently is hardest to quantify statistically. I don't want to make this about knocking Jokic because he's an unbelievable talent but per usual the anti-Embiid arguments are seriously lacking in context

This is rather hyperbolic. Embiid hasn’t really been the kind of defender you’re making him out to be since 2019. He’s more physically gifted than Jokic on that end but he routinely takes plays off cause his conditioning isn’t there. Jokic makes up ground by trying harder, especially at the end of games. Nuggets have been better defensively than Philly in these playoffs anyway.

Strongly disagree in the context of this playoff discussion. Embiid's defense has been as elite as ever. Your argument might have some merit in terms of RS though there's still a sizable gap between the 2

Boston is scoring on an ORTG of 126 in this series, a full 8 pts above their regular season average. Now I know Embiid is hobbled (he generally always is) but these playoffs has definitely not been a good exhibit of Embiid’s defense.

[Pelly24]

To be honest, I didn't even make this thread to come at Embiid any way. From my vantage point, I saw the media drastically underrating Jokic as a player. Richard Jefferson really actively dismissed the idea that Jokic was a better offensive player than Embiid. people were acting like it was pretty close offensively between Jokic and other players. There people who kept bringing up his defense as being truly detrimental during the playoffs, even though he always plays well in the playoffs regardless of circumstance — which has seen him play without his best players two years in a row before this. People have been generally downplaying Jokic this whole year, and in the past. Now that he's got his squad back, he's likely headed to the Conference finals, something *some* players have never done. The truth is, Jokic is maybe the best offensive player since LeBron. IMO, he's the best player since prime LeBron. Hes one of the select few who only get better or maintain their performance level even in the most difficult situations, and his playmaking and scoring combo is literally unstoppable. You can leave Embiid out of this. The numbers and the outcomes say all they need to.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

[durden_tyler]

Indeed, the best player in the world.

Stats? Check.
Efficient? Check.
Makes his teammates better? Double check.

All it takes is a ring and he's going to be in discussion for best C of all time.

[dygaction]

Okay...

Jokic has never averaged under 24 ppg in a postseason.

Embiid has averaged under 24 ppg in 4/6 postseasons, including this one. That's on worse efficiency currently and historically.

There is a pretty clear gap between the two as playoff scorers.

lol the guy is saying that Embiid would dominate Ayton while he averaged 23 ppg against Nic Claxton.

That's a weird thing to say as (1) Claxton is certainly a better defender than Ayton and (2) I provided hard proof of Embiid dominating Ayton. Literally never scored less than 33 points in their 8 matchups lol

Those are regular season games against Ayton... Embiid also averaged 33.1 pts in the regular season but sniffed the average just once (34p) in the 6 playoffs games with 23.2 ppg average. Very impressive regular season player in the past three years combined, but playoffs? Call me not impressed:
Regular: 30.9p/10.8r/3.8a/ 31PER/.636TS%/.258WS/48/8.8BPM
Playoffs: 25.3p/10.6r/2.9a/ 22.5PER/.606TS%/.151WS/48/3.5BPM

[Dupp]

Best player on the league by a mile

[Raps in 4]

Indeed, the best player in the world.

Stats? Check.
Efficient? Check.
Makes his teammates better? Double check.

All it takes is a ring and he's going to be in discussion for best C of all time.

It'll take multiple rings. People will look at Kareem and Shaq and be like "they have 6/4 rings, they're better", while completely ignoring they played with Magic, Kobe, and Wade.

Look at the disrespect Hakeem gets because he only won 2 titles (even though they were more impressive than any Shaq title run and all of Kareem's Lakers title runs).

We really need to decouple titles from the GOAT debate. If a player puts up historic numbers in the regular season and playoffs but doesn't rack up multiple titles because their teams suck, they are still all-time greats. Baseball does it right in this regard. The only thing that gets taken into consideration when ranking players in baseball are stats.

[AleksandarN]

Indeed, the best player in the world.

Stats? Check.
Efficient? Check.
Makes his teammates better? Double check.

All it takes is a ring and he's going to be in discussion for best C of all time.

It'll take multiple rings. People will look at Kareem and Shaq and be like "they have 4/6 rings, they're better", while completely ignoring they played with Magic, Kobe, and Wade.

Look at the disrespect Hakeem gets because he only won 2 titles (even though they were more impressive than any Shaq title run and all of Kareem's Lakers title runs).

We really need to decouple titles from the GOAT debate. If a player puts up historic numbers in the regular season and playoffs but doesn't rack up multiple titles because their teams suck, they are still all-time greats. Baseball does it right in this regard.

Jokic needs at least 4 chips for the media to acknowledge him as the best Center of all time. I will agree if he wins 4 chips and FMVP for at least 3 of them then I would put above Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Shaq and Hakeem. A long ways to go

[durden_tyler]

Indeed, the best player in the world.

Stats? Check.
Efficient? Check.
Makes his teammates better? Double check.

All it takes is a ring and he's going to be in discussion for best C of all time.

It'll take multiple rings. People will look at Kareem and Shaq and be like "they have 6/4 rings, they're better", while completely ignoring they played with Magic, Kobe, and Wade.

Look at the disrespect Hakeem gets because he only won 2 titles (even though they were more impressive than any Shaq title run and all of Kareem's Lakers title runs).

We really need to decouple titles from the GOAT debate. If a player puts up historic numbers in the regular season and playoffs but doesn't rack up multiple titles because their teams suck, they are still all-time greats. Baseball does it right in this regard. The only thing that gets taken into consideration when ranking players in baseball are stats.

It should be stats and winning or else you can't differentiate an all time goat from a "regular" superstar.

[Raps in 4]

Indeed, the best player in the world.

Stats? Check.
Efficient? Check.
Makes his teammates better? Double check.

All it takes is a ring and he's going to be in discussion for best C of all time.

It'll take multiple rings. People will look at Kareem and Shaq and be like "they have 6/4 rings, they're better", while completely ignoring they played with Magic, Kobe, and Wade.

Look at the disrespect Hakeem gets because he only won 2 titles (even though they were more impressive than any Shaq title run and all of Kareem's Lakers title runs).

We really need to decouple titles from the GOAT debate. If a player puts up historic numbers in the regular season and playoffs but doesn't rack up multiple titles because their teams suck, they are still all-time greats. Baseball does it right in this regard. The only thing that gets taken into consideration when ranking players in baseball are stats.

It should be stats and winning or else you can't differentiate an all time goat from a "regular" superstar.

How is a superstar who played with another superstar and won multiple titles any different from a superstar who didn't play with another superstar and therefore didn't win a title or only won 1 or 2?

[QPR]

Indeed, the best player in the world.

Stats? Check.
Efficient? Check.
Makes his teammates better? Double check.

All it takes is a ring and he's going to be in discussion for best C of all time.

It'll take multiple rings. People will look at Kareem and Shaq and be like "they have 4/6 rings, they're better", while completely ignoring they played with Magic, Kobe, and Wade.

Look at the disrespect Hakeem gets because he only won 2 titles (even though they were more impressive than any Shaq title run and all of Kareem's Lakers title runs).

We really need to decouple titles from the GOAT debate. If a player puts up historic numbers in the regular season and playoffs but doesn't rack up multiple titles because their teams suck, they are still all-time greats. Baseball does it right in this regard.

Jokic needs at least 4 chips for the media to acknowledge him as the best Center of all time. I will agree if he wins 4 chips and FMVP for at least 3 of them then I would put above Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Shaq and Hakeem. A long ways to go

I'd argue Jokic taking a small market team like Denver to a title, especially with his current team mates, would be worth 2-3 of Kareem or Shaq's rings.

Dream's two titles are some of the most impressive in NBA history given he led his team through a brutal conference and then dominated Shaq and Ewing in the Finals. Unfortunately, they don't get the respect they deserve because MJ wasn't playing.

[Raps in 4]

It'll take multiple rings. People will look at Kareem and Shaq and be like "they have 4/6 rings, they're better", while completely ignoring they played with Magic, Kobe, and Wade.

Look at the disrespect Hakeem gets because he only won 2 titles (even though they were more impressive than any Shaq title run and all of Kareem's Lakers title runs).

We really need to decouple titles from the GOAT debate. If a player puts up historic numbers in the regular season and playoffs but doesn't rack up multiple titles because their teams suck, they are still all-time greats. Baseball does it right in this regard.

Jokic needs at least 4 chips for the media to acknowledge him as the best Center of all time. I will agree if he wins 4 chips and FMVP for at least 3 of them then I would put above Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Shaq and Hakeem. A long ways to go

I'd argue Jokic taking a small market team like Denver to a title, especially with his current team mates, would be worth 2-3 of Kareem or Shaq's rings.

Dream's two titles are some of the most impressive in NBA history given he led his team through a brutal conference and then dominated Shaq and Ewing in the Finals. Unfortunately, they don't get the respect they deserve because MJ wasn't playing.

And if you gave Pippen to Hakeem instead of to Jordan, he likely wins 4+ titles and enters the GOAT discussion while Jordan becomes an afterthought. Teammates make and break legacies.

Hakeem was every bit as good a player as Kareem and Shaq (if not better), but he never played with another all-time great (while in his/their prime).

[Jhawk03]

To be honest, I didn't even make this thread to come at Embiid any way. From my vantage point, I saw the media drastically underrating Jokic as a player. Richard Jefferson really actively dismissed the idea that Jokic was a better offensive player than Embiid. people were acting like it was pretty close offensively between Jokic and other players. There people who kept bringing up his defense as being truly detrimental during the playoffs, even though he always plays well in the playoffs regardless of circumstance — which has seen him play without his best players two years in a row before this. People have been generally downplaying Jokic this whole year, and in the past. Now that he's got his squad back, he's likely headed to the Conference finals, something *some* players have never done. The truth is, Jokic is maybe the best offensive player since LeBron. IMO, he's the best player since prime LeBron. Hes one of the select few who only get better or maintain their performance level even in the most difficult situations, and his playmaking and scoring combo is literally unstoppable. You can leave Embiid out of this. The numbers and the outcomes say all they need to.

Don't apologize now, you posted this on the general board. What did you expect exactly? If the Nuggets and Sixers reach the finals, this board will get what it deserves in terms of what happens leading up to it along with the results.

[GeorgeMarcus]

lol the guy is saying that Embiid would dominate Ayton while he averaged 23 ppg against Nic Claxton.

That's a weird thing to say as (1) Claxton is certainly a better defender than Ayton and (2) I provided hard proof of Embiid dominating Ayton. Literally never scored less than 33 points in their 8 matchups lol

Those are regular season games against Ayton... Embiid also averaged 33.1 pts in the regular season but sniffed the average just once (34p) in the 6 playoffs games with 23.2 ppg average. Very impressive regular season player in the past three years combined, but playoffs? Call me not impressed:
Regular: 30.9p/10.8r/3.8a/ 31PER/.636TS%/.258WS/48/8.8BPM
Playoffs: 25.3p/10.6r/2.9a/ 22.5PER/.606TS%/.151WS/48/3.5BPM

What stat are you using to measure that PnR defense (or defense as a whole)? What about offensive gravity? Somehow Jokic gets credit for winning more in the playoffs when the reality is...

Jokic
18-19 Playoff Net (14 games): +7.0
18-19 Playoff On/Off (14 games): +23.7

19-20 Playoff Net (19 games): -3.5
19-20 Playoff On/Off (19 games): -3.0

20-21 Playoff Net (10 games): -8.4
20-21 Playoff On/Off (10 games): -8.2

21-22 Playoff Net (5 games): -14.4
21-22 Playoff On/Off (5 games): -16.5

22-23 Playoff Net (10 games): +6.9
22-23 Playoff On/Off (10 games): -4.3

Cumulative Playoff Net (58 games): -0.6
Cumulative Playoff On/Off (58 games): +1.8


Embiid
17-18 Playoff Net (8 games): +5.6
17-18 Playoff On/Off (8 games): +6.6

18-18 Playoff Net (11 games): +20.5
18-19 Playoff On/Off (11 games): +41.6

19-20 Playoff Net (4 games): -21.2
19-20 Playoff On/Off (4 games): -32.9

20-21 Playoff Net (11 games): +14.7
20-21 Playoff On/Off (11 games): +19.9

21-22 (10 games): +4.6
21-22 (10 games): +11.3

22-23 Playoff Net (7 games): +4.6
22-23 Playoff On/Off (7 games): +4.5

Cumulative Playoff Net (51): +7.7
Cumulative Playoff On/Off (51): +13.4


The ONLY smudge on Embiid's playoff impact profile was in by far the smallest sample (4 games) and furthermore the only season in which Embiid was forced to play next to another big man in Horford (which everyone knew would not work).

At the end of the day winning is what matters and JoJo does it even better than Joker. Yeah I said it

[Zombiesonics]

Jokic has got to be one of the best playoff performers in the history of the game. He put up inexplicable numbers @ 23 when he got his first bite at the apple, 4 years later he is peaking it seems. Lebron and MJ won their first chip @ 27...jokic on the same path? Need murray and MPJ to really put their imprint on things to help him out

[QPR]

Jokic has got to be one of the best playoff performers in the history of the game. He put up inexplicable numbers @ 23 when he got his first bite at the apple, 4 years later he is peaking it seems. Lebron and MJ won their first chip @ 27...jokic on the same path? Need murray and MPJ to really put their imprint on things to help him out

But I thought he was unplayable in the playoffs because teams will just pick and roll him to death

[Sharkboy242]

That's a weird thing to say as (1) Claxton is certainly a better defender than Ayton and (2) I provided hard proof of Embiid dominating Ayton. Literally never scored less than 33 points in their 8 matchups lol

Those are regular season games against Ayton... Embiid also averaged 33.1 pts in the regular season but sniffed the average just once (34p) in the 6 playoffs games with 23.2 ppg average. Very impressive regular season player in the past three years combined, but playoffs? Call me not impressed:
Regular: 30.9p/10.8r/3.8a/ 31PER/.636TS%/.258WS/48/8.8BPM
Playoffs: 25.3p/10.6r/2.9a/ 22.5PER/.606TS%/.151WS/48/3.5BPM

What stat are you using to measure that PnR defense (or defense as a whole)? What about offensive gravity? Somehow Jokic gets credit for winning more in the playoffs when the reality is...

Jokic
18-19 Playoff Net (14 games): +7.0
18-19 Playoff On/Off (14 games): +23.7

19-20 Playoff Net (19 games): -3.5
19-20 Playoff On/Off (19 games): -3.0

20-21 Playoff Net (10 games): -8.4
20-21 Playoff On/Off (10 games): -8.2

21-22 Playoff Net (5 games): -14.4
21-22 Playoff On/Off (5 games): -16.5

22-23 Playoff Net (10 games): +6.9
22-23 Playoff On/Off (10 games): -4.3

Cumulative Playoff Net (58 games): -0.6
Cumulative Playoff On/Off (58 games): +1.8


Embiid
17-18 Playoff Net (8 games): +5.6
17-18 Playoff On/Off (8 games): +6.6

18-18 Playoff Net (11 games): +20.5
18-19 Playoff On/Off (11 games): +41.6

19-20 Playoff Net (4 games): -21.2
19-20 Playoff On/Off (4 games): -32.9

20-21 Playoff Net (11 games): +14.7
20-21 Playoff On/Off (11 games): +19.9

21-22 (10 games): +4.6
21-22 (10 games): +11.3

22-23 Playoff Net (7 games): +4.6
22-23 Playoff On/Off (7 games): +4.5

Cumulative Playoff Net (51): +7.7
Cumulative Playoff On/Off (51): +13.4


The ONLY smudge on Embiid's playoff impact profile was in by far the smallest sample (4 games) and furthermore the only season in which Embiid was forced to play next to another big man in Horford (which everyone knew would not work).

At the end of the day winning is what matters and JoJo does it even better than Joker. Yeah I said it

Quality of opponents? Quality of teammates?

[Optms]

Call me when he makes it out of the West. I'm not impressed.

[Sharkboy242]

Call me when he makes it out of the West. I'm not impressed.

Your hatred is so sad and pathetic. There are players I strongly dislike, like Embiid, but not even I am foolish enough to call him unimpressive.

[hauntedcomputer]

Dude leads the league in asterisks by a country mile