Colin Cowherd with the harsh reality for American born young players

[jokeboy86]

As a New Yorker, i never though the best rapper could ever be from somewhere else

And you still would be right because if you gave me the field against the catalogs/careers of Jay-z/Nas/Rakim, I'm still easily taking those 3 no matter what the era.

[CobraCommander]

I agree with the broader point of Europe/global hoops catching up quickly. The American youth style of basketball all 1 vs 1 ISO ball culture, flashy dunks, ballislife mixtapes, with very little emphasis on passing and fundamentals. You can make a case that the 2 best passers in the league at the moment are Jokic and Doncic.

With KD, Harden, Steph and Lebron all on the decline, we also seeing the dearth of the American superstar. Tatum? He’s on the border but will never be considered the best player in the league. Ja? Too busy flashing guns. Zion? Can’t stay healthy and game is too one dimensional. Between the ultra young guys like Paolo, Chet, Scoot, etc, not sure if any of them have even close to the potential of the Steph, KD, etc, whereas guys like Giannis, Jokic and even Luka could one day surpass them (Giannis/Jokic have arguably has surpassed KD already.)

I don’t get it

Luka is a a flashy shoot first guy that can pass...but Luka takes the most shots in the NBa per game.... and makes some of the flashiest passes...drives the sickest car/tank...hangs out with the hottest models...clubs the hardest...mean mugs listens to hip hop and doesn’t play team defense....but he gets lumped in with Jokic and Giannis because he was born in Europe?

If you lump Luka in with Giannis and Jokic when saying “playing the right way” while implying Luka is doing anything different than Tray Young or any AAU player - I am going to see that you have an agenda....

Luka is a prototypical AAU hardenesq player - he is just so damn good it just works - but he isn’t doing anything like Giannis and Jokic

[CobraCommander]

he's saying euro players are not about numbers or flash

that they have the ingredients for better teamwork that lead to rings

his bottom line is winning rings - that's how he judgles all athletes. rings and synergy

i think he's also saying america craves flash in basketball. i can't say he's not correct because basketball in america is historically built around numbers and flash, and that is how it advertizes itself. i see it on this well-informed board. but he implies that the euro players is more built around the concept of the team

But his argument doesn’t hold weight when Jokic and Giannis have been in the league since 2014/2013 and have won 2 rings...total. Recency bias about Jokic and Giannis coupled with the fact that the other European players that are mvp level ARE all flash and questionable work ethic refutes everything Colin is saying.

Luka might as well be harden or Zion from a work ethic and flash perspective -

So who are these other European players not named Jokic and Giannis that don’t care about flash....

In fact who are these other players like Giannis and Jokic that are damn near all work ethic, no flash and team work?

Last dude I recall was Tim Duncan-

Nba players like the clout - even Europeans-

yeah whelp....that's colin's take imo. he has his peculiarities but overall i like his emphasis on synergy

But it’s a not a euro thing....it’s a Jokic and Giannis thing...

Jokic and Giannis might be two of the top 10 players all time with one or both of them getting into the top 5..._

Where they are from has nothing to do with it....Europe is HUGE their stories are as similar as a guy from NYC and a guy from Hawaii...yeah they both Americans but they growing up differently

[Cavsfansince84]

The AAU system is horrible for developing players to be nba contributors...it’s all “scoring” and no team work...but the euros have put out 2 outliers - Giannis and Jokic...no one else has won anything. And even those two were surrounded by great players all over the roster...just last year Steph and won a ring...before Giannis is was Lebron....we are in a era of Jokic and Giannis dominance but not European dominance- because no other euros other than these 2 are really perennial top 5 in mvp vote getters amd also high work ethic

ok but the top 3 guys that came into the league in terms of being franchise players in the last 10 years are all Euros and perhaps the best prospect we've seen since LeBron is also a Euro. What I'm saying is that Europe started taking bb more seriously about 30 years ago and players born since then are just now going through their development that they've built up and it seems to work better than what we have in the us now that those players are coming up in wider numbers. That's all that I am saying. Giannis' development was more in the nba so you can almost toss him out but whether it's 3 or 4 outliers make no difference if their top talent simply reaches a level that our's doesn't. There's only so many players capable of being top 5-10 players that come up every year. Whether they actually become top 10 players is a whole nother thing though.

[CobraCommander]

The AAU system is horrible for developing players to be nba contributors...it’s all “scoring” and no team work...but the euros have put out 2 outliers - Giannis and Jokic...no one else has won anything. And even those two were surrounded by great players all over the roster...just last year Steph and won a ring...before Giannis is was Lebron....we are in a era of Jokic and Giannis dominance but not European dominance- because no other euros other than these 2 are really perennial top 5 in mvp vote getters amd also high work ethic

ok but the top 3 guys that came into the league in terms of being franchise players in the last 10 years are all Euros and perhaps the best prospect we've seen since LeBron is also a Euro. What I'm saying is that Europe started taking bb more seriously about 30 years ago and players born since then are just now going through their development that they've built up and it seems to work better than what we have in the us now that those players are coming up in wider numbers. That's all that I am saying. Giannis' development was more in the nba so you can almost toss him out but whether it's 3 or 4 outliers make no difference if their top talent simply reaches a level that our's doesn't. There's only so many players capable of being top 5-10 players that come up every year. Whether they actually become top 10 players is a whole nother thing though.

Giannis, Jokic and Embiid are the top 3 guys in last 10 years...all bigs..6’10” 0r greater- Then it’s wemby....can we correlate all bigs?

No

You guys are trying to make a connection to Europe when a lot of European players suck and the best 2 guys - beyond being European are the hardest working guys on their game and have the mindset that makes them care more about playing the right way than anyone else regardless of where they are from. Giannis and Jokic are the best In the world mentally and how they approach the game...no one else from Europe approaches the game like them. So is it euros or is it these two freaks/?

[Cavsfansince84]

Giannis, Jokic and Embiid are the top 3 guys in last 10 years...all bigs..6’10” 0r greater- Then it’s wemby....can we correlate all bigs?

No

You guys are trying to make a connection to Europe when a lot of European players suck and the best 2 guys - beyond being European are the hardest working guys on their game and have the mindset that makes them care more about playing the right way than anyone else regardless of where they are from. Giannis and Jokic are the best In the world mentally and how they approach the game...no one else from Europe approaches the game like them. So is it euros or is it these two freaks/?

There's no you guys here. Don't lump me in with anyone else. I'm not trying to do anything other than say that the us system should be improved upon. It could be that Luka, Nikola and Giannis are all some kind of outliers. Then again, it could be a sign of something else going on. It could just be that Europe along with Africa perhaps when fully dedicated to recognizing bb talent and training them just have more talent. There is more likelihood now compared to 20-30 years ago of a top talent being funneled that way.

[CobraCommander]

Giannis, Jokic and Embiid are the top 3 guys in last 10 years...all bigs..6’10” 0r greater- Then it’s wemby....can we correlate all bigs?

No

You guys are trying to make a connection to Europe when a lot of European players suck and the best 2 guys - beyond being European are the hardest working guys on their game and have the mindset that makes them care more about playing the right way than anyone else regardless of where they are from. Giannis and Jokic are the best In the world mentally and how they approach the game...no one else from Europe approaches the game like them. So is it euros or is it these two freaks/?

There's no you guys here. Don't lump me in with anyone else. I'm not trying to do anything other than say that the us system should be improved upon. It could be that Luka, Nikola and Giannis are all some kind of outliers. Then again, it could be a sign of something else going on. It could just be that Europe along with Africa perhaps when fully dedicated to recognizing bb talent and training them just have more talent. There is more likelihood now compared to 20-30 years ago of a top talent being funneled that way.

Luka not the same as Giannis and Jokic.

Luka doesn’t play like anyone else other than Harden. THere are NO other comps on earth. And Luka is a genius that appears to be able to play at the highest offensive level while having a bad attitude and horrible work ethic. Luka definitely defies logic- but to make him out to he an example of what is coming out of Europe is crazy. Luka was a freak stand out even in Europe- where are all the guys from Europe that play like Luka and show me how Lukas play wins games in team ball?

I’m not lumping you - but come on - making it about location is silly when Jokic and Giannis and not high draft picks and improved dramatically when they got to the league.

Luka has been same guy for 5 years...if he doesn’t improve it will appear that year 1/2 Luka was a finished product. That’s insane...but is that Europe or Luka being a genius? And as good as Luka is he is a million miles behind Jokic and Giannis in every way....

[Cavsfansince84]

Luka not the same as Giannis and Jokic.

Luka doesn’t play like anyone else other than Harden. THere are NO other comps on earth. And Luka is a genius that appears to be able to play at the highest offensive level while having a bad attitude and horrible work ethic. Luka definitely defies logic- but to make him out to he an example of what is coming out of Europe is crazy. Luka was a freak stand out even in Europe- where are all the guys from Europe that play like Luka and show me how Lukas play wins games in team ball?

I’m not lumping you - but come on - making it about location is silly when Jokic and Giannis and not high draft picks and improved dramatically when they got to the league.

Luka has been same guy for 5 years...if he doesn’t improve it will appear that year 1/2 Luka was a finished product. That’s insane...but is that Europe or Luka being a genius? And as good as Luka is he is a million miles behind Jokic and Giannis in every way....

I'm gonna say that you are kinda way off on how you view Luka. First, his dad was a Euro player/coach and has been basically training him since he was 4 years old to play the way he does. So that's definite Euro influence to begin with in terms of how he was raised to play the game. Second, I disagree with him having bad attitude or poor work ethic. I think his attitude was generally great up until this last season and that's part of being a pro athlete is you aren't the exact same person dealing with the exact same situations in life or on the court every single year. He could definitely come back with a better attitude next year(I'm not saying any of this as a big Luka fan, it's just my opinions as a 40 year observer/fan). I think his work ethic was also very good for most of his development and the only thing really missing is conditioning. Part of what you are calling a genius is him having been raised by a coach and turned pro when he was 15. Also, Luka hasn't been the same for five years. His shot allocation has actually changed a lot in terms of more at the rim, less long 2's and more 3's. It's just that he's not a great shooter yet.

[CobraCommander]

Luka not the same as Giannis and Jokic.

Luka doesn’t play like anyone else other than Harden. THere are NO other comps on earth. And Luka is a genius that appears to be able to play at the highest offensive level while having a bad attitude and horrible work ethic. Luka definitely defies logic- but to make him out to he an example of what is coming out of Europe is crazy. Luka was a freak stand out even in Europe- where are all the guys from Europe that play like Luka and show me how Lukas play wins games in team ball?

I’m not lumping you - but come on - making it about location is silly when Jokic and Giannis and not high draft picks and improved dramatically when they got to the league.

Luka has been same guy for 5 years...if he doesn’t improve it will appear that year 1/2 Luka was a finished product. That’s insane...but is that Europe or Luka being a genius? And as good as Luka is he is a million miles behind Jokic and Giannis in every way....

I'm gonna say that you are kinda way off on how you view Luka. First, his dad was a Euro player/coach and has been basically training him since he was 4 years old to play the way he does. So that's definite Euro influence to begin with in terms of how he was raised to play the game. Second, I disagree with him having bad attitude or poor work ethic. I think his attitude was generally great up until this last season and that's part of being a pro athlete is you aren't the exact same person dealing with the exact same situations in life or on the court every single year. He could definitely come back with a better attitude next year(I'm not saying any of this as a big Luka fan, it's just my opinions as a 40 year observer/fan). I think his work ethic was also very good for most of his development and the only thing really missing is conditioning. Part of what you are calling a genius is him having been raised by a coach and turned pro when he was 15. Also, Luka hasn't been the same for five years. His shot allocation has actually changed a lot in terms of more at the rim, less long 2's and more 3's. It's just that he's not a great shooter yet.

Naw you can debate that If you want...I said Luka a genius- but dude has come in shape 1 time in 5 seasons and even his peers say “if he would just get in real shape”.

Don’t take my word - take his teammates and Luka himself’
https://youtu.be/oYi1klY4Gt4

https://youtube.com/shorts/Ph3JfG2iKtI?feature=share

Don’t make excuses for Luka that he doesn’t make for himself... Luka knows he ain’t in good shape and you love him so much you give him a pass he doesn’t give himself lol.

And his attitude- dude has techs like draymond and Rasheed Wallace...so while he cussing out refs the team playing 4 on 5 defense...

You can’t say that about Ginannis and Jokic...

These guys improved their conditioning and they have great attitudes about basketball-

Love Luka but don’t lie to yourself about who he is...he is hardenLike - and doesn’t have an MVP or a Ring or FMVP....Giannis and Jokic got alllll the hardware...they are the best of this era.

Luka like Zion is a bunch of potential...and that’s not a slight...but Luka gotta win an mvp or two and a ring to be like these two monsters...

[CpttCanada]

LMAO people used to say these kinds of things back when the Spurs were winning with Duncan. Now they can say it again because of Jokic, Giannis, and Embiid. International basketball still isn't producing elite guards.

What about Luka?

[Cavsfansince84]

Naw you can debate that If you want...I said Luka a genius- but dude has come in shape 1 time in 5 seasons and even his peers say “if he would just get in real shape”.

Don’t take my word - take his teammates and Luka himself’
https://youtu.be/oYi1klY4Gt4

https://youtube.com/shorts/Ph3JfG2iKtI?feature=share

Don’t make excuses for Luka that he doesn’t make for himself... Luka knows he ain’t in good shape and you love him so much you give him a pass he doesn’t give himself lol.

And his attitude- dude has techs like draymond and Rasheed Wallace...so while he cussing out refs the team playing 4 on 5 defense...

You can’t say that about Ginannis and Jokic...

These guys improved their conditioning and they have great attitudes about basketball-

Love Luka but don’t lie to yourself about who he is...he is hardenLike - and doesn’t have an MVP or a Ring or FMVP....Giannis and Jokic got alllll the hardware...they are the best of this era.

Luka like Zion is a bunch of potential...and that’s not a slight...but Luka gotta win an mvp or two and a ring to be like these two monsters...

Honestly, I'm not that much of a Luka fan. Just giving honest opinions(which doesn't mean everything I say is right, it's just my opinion). With regard to his weight, its obvious he could get into better shape. I think his first few years it didn't really matter that much and he tended to use the extra weight to bully smaller defenders in the paint and in your early 20's you have very high energy levels. Last year was worse. Overall, he does a lot of things on the court I don't like but I wouldn't actually say he had a bad attitude until this last season(which again he admitted and I think he has off court stuff going on as well). So maybe it improves or maybe it doesn't. I generally hope for the best for all players in terms of improving themselves.

[Papi_swav]

he's not lying

[Cavsfansince84]

I don’t get it

Luka is a a flashy shoot first guy that can pass...but Luka takes the most shots in the NBa per game.... and makes some of the flashiest passes...drives the sickest car/tank...hangs out with the hottest models...clubs the hardest...mean mugs listens to hip hop and doesn’t play team defense....but he gets lumped in with Jokic and Giannis because he was born in Europe?

If you lump Luka in with Giannis and Jokic when saying “playing the right way” while implying Luka is doing anything different than Tray Young or any AAU player - I am going to see that you have an agenda....

Luka is a prototypical AAU hardenesq player - he is just so damn good it just works - but he isn’t doing anything like Giannis and Jokic

I think you are taking two different things and conflating them together. It's not necessarily about playing 'the right way'. Whatever works works. In the case of Luka, its about how he was able to develop by virtue of turning pro at such a young age and bb basically being his main pursuit with pro coaching from a young age. That is part of how Euros develop now which is why its relevant to bring Luka up regardless of his playing style. I'm not here to say that Euros play the right way and Americans don't. It's about results on the court and that if it's about a player reaching like a 9/10 rating(basically mvp caliber) that Europe seems to be producing more of them than we are. Maybe its just aberration or maybe its part of a larger trend. We'll find out 15 years from now.

[LewisnotMiller]

more like Europe has had more outliers

None of these guys have beaten America at the Olympics since 2004

To be fair, when was the last time the US played a match against Europe?

[Yank3525]

LMAO people used to say these kinds of things back when the Spurs were winning with Duncan. Now they can say it again because of Jokic, Giannis, and Embiid. International basketball still isn't producing elite guards.

I know right. I remember people saying this stuff back in 2003.

Someone should provide video of commentators saying these same sort of things back then especially when Team USA had trouble winning.

Yup. Honestly, the only difference from what is been said now and back then is that instead of saying AAU ruin culture it was prep to pros.

[hoosierdaddy34]

Simple reminder that if you read through Colin Cowherds takes about basketball through the years, it’s staggering how little he knows about the game and how many stupid things he has said. He’s a complete moron when it comes to the game.

[CobraCommander]

I don’t get it

Luka is a a flashy shoot first guy that can pass...but Luka takes the most shots in the NBa per game.... and makes some of the flashiest passes...drives the sickest car/tank...hangs out with the hottest models...clubs the hardest...mean mugs listens to hip hop and doesn’t play team defense....but he gets lumped in with Jokic and Giannis because he was born in Europe?

If you lump Luka in with Giannis and Jokic when saying “playing the right way” while implying Luka is doing anything different than Tray Young or any AAU player - I am going to see that you have an agenda....

Luka is a prototypical AAU hardenesq player - he is just so damn good it just works - but he isn’t doing anything like Giannis and Jokic

I think you are taking two different things and conflating them together. It's not necessarily about playing 'the right way'. Whatever works works. In the case of Luka, its about how he was able to develop by virtue of turning pro at such a young age and bb basically being his main pursuit with pro coaching from a young age. That is part of how Euros develop now which is why its relevant to bring Luka up regardless of his playing style. I'm not here to say that Euros play the right way and Americans don't. It's about results on the court and that if it's about a player reaching like a 9/10 rating(basically mvp caliber) that Europe seems to be producing more of them than we are. Maybe its just aberration or maybe its part of a larger trend. We'll find out 15 years from now.

The mvp race _ top 5 guys didn’t include one American - Tatum - 4th and SGA 5th Donovan 6th Sabonis 7th and 8th Luka - then Curry then butler

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-mvp-2023-joel-embiid-voting-results-jokic-giannis/fr1gyckfq741vzrallqvuc0b


So you do have a decent point...I just think Luka plays more like super AAU player than a euro

[peZt]

The best american players under 30 are Tatum, Ja and Trae. I love them but this is a historically bad group. The superstars in the NBA are all either international or 35+.
If you made a list of the top 10 players under 30, I think you'd have to go back to the 80s to find a worse list than today.

I don't know what the reason for this is, if it's AAU or just a coincidental bad stretch in terms of top talent but he's kind of right tbh

[Gary Cokeman]

The best american players under 30 are Tatum, Ja and Trae. I love them but this is a historically bad group. The superstars in the NBA are all either international or 35+.
If you made a list of the top 10 players under 30, I think you'd have to go back to the 80s to find a worse list than today.

I don't know what the reason for this is, if it's AAU or just a coincidental bad stretch in terms of top talent but he's kind of right tbh

Replace Trae with Devin Booker.

[Jasen777]

The best american players under 30 are Tatum, Ja and Trae. I love them but this is a historically bad group. The superstars in the NBA are all either international or 35+.
If you made a list of the top 10 players under 30, I think you'd have to go back to the 80s to find a worse list than today.

Would we notice a difference if the international stars weren't here?